Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#108070 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
In a sense, it IS both. In that it exists as brain states in our heads.
But in the sense that Bo is using it, it doesn't exist. "Information" is completely independent from both energy and matter.
He's about to find out the hard way.
I can’t agree with the Bo idea, information requires either/or energy and matter, without it then it simply cannot exist.

The brain is matter requiring energy to work

Or perhaps the ROM/RAM (of whatever type) that is matter and needs energy to twiddle the bits, etc.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108071 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
"Information is information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive "
Norbert Weiner.......MIT Mathematician and father of cybernetics
As usual when you evolutionary religionists have no answers you accuse people of being uneducated , ignorant and blinded by religion, when it's you who have exposed your own lack of knowledge.
So he's not a biologist? Thought so.

Oh wait - this was dealt with already. Repeating an appeal to authority fallacy is still a fallacy. Doesn't matter how many smartass names you can name, all that matters is the evidence.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#108072 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
"Information is information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive "
Norbert Weiner.......MIT Mathematician and father of cybernetics
As usual when you evolutionary religionists have no answers you accuse people of being uneducated , ignorant and blinded by religion, when it's you who have exposed your own lack of knowledge.
Just because you do not understand the relationship between energy/matter and information is not my problem

Ahh right so you choose to quote a guy who died 50 year ago. Sorry bud mathematics, psychology and neuroscience have moved on a bit since then – please try and keep up.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/...
“facts provided or learned about something or someone:”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inform...
1.knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance;
2.knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data
3.the act or fact of informing.
4.an office, station, service, or employee whose function is to provide information to the public:

Note that every definition requires either/or energy/matter

You see there are answers, You problem is that they are answers you choose to ignore and this is why you will remain ignorant.

“We explore because we are curious, not because we wish to develop grand views of reality or better widgets.”
&#8213; Brian Cox

Note he is still alive and working…
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108073 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh,no,no, the evolutionist beef stew process is absolutely true . All the building blocks for the stew are readily available and the natural forces are obviously capable of rendering this stew with no need of any outside intelligence or deity. Given enough time and probabilities the above scenario will produce a variety of soups and stews
Your analogy is flawed. Remember the ocean itself is a stew, as all a stew is is merely solid pieces of food inside a liquid medium. And yet, as far as we can tell, no one was needed to design the ocean.

Repeating fallacies without addressing the content of our posts is merely repeating fallacies. This has been a long-standing flaw of yours. This is why you always lose your arguments and these debates cannot progress. Note the differences in our respective operandi - I deal with all your claims, sometimes point for point if necessary. You repeat arguments we've already addressed and "counter" them with the same post we just debunked.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108074 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
organized and disorganized complexity. posited by Warren Weaver 1948

This does not answer my question. Thanks again for avoiding it.

[QUOTE who="bohart"]<quo ted text>
Question, is a life form disorganized or organized
take your time
Those terms are subjective. A more appropriate term would be "arranged" or "configured", as neither of those automatically imply an intelligence behind them as default.

But I still don't know how to MEASURE the difference between the paper plane and the space shuttle. How is complexity measured? What method are you using to measure them? What exactly are you counting?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108075 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
I can’t agree with the Bo idea, information requires either/or energy and matter, without it then it simply cannot exist.
The brain is matter requiring energy to work
Or perhaps the ROM/RAM (of whatever type) that is matter and needs energy to twiddle the bits, etc.
You are correct in that information exists physically as energy and matter in the form of brain states - literally, the physical configuration of our brains. Bo rejects evolution. We accept evolution. Our personal experiences are different. So we all have different brain-states.

"Information" is what we invented to describe real world phenomena. Duck. Sun. Car. But if I say "car" to one of the Lizard People of Rigel XII it will just look at me funny and not understand. If I show it the word "car" written on a piece of paper I'll still get the same reaction. But if I gesture multiple times to a car and say "car" each time, it will understand.

But "car" is NOT the object in question. Neither is the sound "car". Nor is the writing on the paper a car. "Car" is simply the label we have **arbitrarily** decided to assign to that particular object. And because it is arbitrary, we can change that information at will. If we like we could assign the arbitrary label "apple" to that metal four-wheeled object used for transportation, as long as everybody agrees. So then if I point to the thing that brings me to work every day and you say "apple", everything's cool and we both know what we're talking about. But if somebody says "car" we'd be like WTF??

So it's important here to note that the information has changed radically, but the object in question - the device that gets us to work every day - has not. That's why information does not exist in the same way the car does - information is COMPLETELY independent from the thing in question. It is ARBITRARY. And the reason it works is due to the ARBITRARY label system we developed to describe things in the real world. It's our INTERPRETATION of "information" that helps us understand what these things are, due to the system we made up. Called language, in our case, English language. Which apparently belongs to the English!

And this is why Bo's point about "information" is deeply flawed - DNA doesn't require interpretation. In fact it couldn't work in the way it does if it did, what with it being a bunch of chemicals. As such these chemicals have particular properties and act in particular ways, no matter what we call them. And that's why we end up with specific organisms due to specific chemical and protein configurations. A geologist can garner TONS of information from a simple old rock: size, shape, mass, volume. Physical characteristics, where it was found, where these types of rock in particular are found, how they are formed, how long they take to form, how old the rock is, etc. And the geologist can write all this "information" down and present it to you on paper, USB stick, whatever. BECAUSE the information is totally independent from the object in question. The information is not the object. The object does not contain the information. The information is the system intelligent agents devised to quantify objects. Not construct them.

Long before humans, there were just simple old rocks. And no information at all.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108076 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because you do not understand the relationship between energy/matter and information is not my problem
Ahh right so you choose to quote a guy who died 50 year ago. Sorry bud mathematics, psychology and neuroscience have moved on a bit since then – please try and keep up.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/...
“facts provided or learned about something or someone:”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inform...
1.knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance;
2.knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data
3.the act or fact of informing.
4.an office, station, service, or employee whose function is to provide information to the public:
Note that every definition requires either/or energy/matter
You see there are answers, You problem is that they are answers you choose to ignore and this is why you will remain ignorant.
“We explore because we are curious, not because we wish to develop grand views of reality or better widgets.”
&#8213; Brian Cox
Note he is still alive and working…
And now Bohart is taking the "Evolution can't explain mind-body duality therefore Jews are magic!" approach.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#108077 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
"Information is information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive "
Norbert Weiner.......MIT Mathematician and father of cybernetics
As usual when you evolutionary religionists have no answers you accuse people of being uneducated , ignorant and blinded by religion, when it's you who have exposed your own lack of knowledge.
Right. Information is found in the *arrangement* of matter and energy. it is not matter or energy itself. But any situation where causality happens will lead to information. In particular, any effect will carry information about the cause of that effect.

For example, light emitted by a distant star carries information about that star. Our eyes and brains interpret that information and we see the star and can determine quite a large number of things about its composition, temperature, etc.

Another example, a penny on the ground carries a large amount of information: how it was made, the location of the ore it was made from, the beliefs and hopes of the society that made it, and even the fact that someone passed that location at some point. That is information.

So, when you ask how information is generated, the answer is very simple: whenever there is a cause and effect, the effect has information about the cause.

In the case of DNA, the information is in the form of chemical units and it is information about the genetic past of the individual, including quite a lot of information about ancestors, etc.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#108078 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
No, humans produce information for DNA. I already explained this to you. DNA is a protein molecule, consisting of the chemicals adenine, cytosine, guanine and thymine.
No, DNA is NOT a protein. It is a nucleic acid. VERY different things chemically.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#108079 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
The only factual part of your statement was the first sentence, The rest of your statement was just grasping at straws. They are two problems of the first DNA, Where did the information come from, and how did it self assemble.
There is no none natural process that can do those.
Sure there is. There is no law of 'conservation of information'. It can be created and destroyed in any number of ways. In particular, any effect is information that its cause occurred. The quality and nature of the information depends on the strength of the reverse causal sequence (how many causes can lead to a given effect), but the simple fact of causality implies the generation of information.

In the case of DNA, the atoms themselves interact in well-defined ways governed by the laws of chemistry and physics. That alone carries information. The concentration and distribution of different chemicals *is* one type of information.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#108080 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
And now Bohart is taking the "Evolution can't explain mind-body duality therefore Jews are magic!" approach.
As ever, perfectly correct, it seems that Bo does not actually understand what information is. He believes his brain is worked by god magic and so is incapable of seeing that energy is required to him to even consider such information.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108081 Jan 20, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, DNA is NOT a protein. It is a nucleic acid. VERY different things chemically.
Whoopsie, my bad.

I shall flog myself for an hour for this egregious error!

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#108082 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
organized and disorganized complexity. posited by Warren Weaver 1948
Question, is a life form disorganized or organized
take your time
1948 is ancient history boo heart.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#108083 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
I can’t agree with the Bo idea, information requires either/or energy and matter, without it then it simply cannot exist.
The brain is matter requiring energy to work
Or perhaps the ROM/RAM (of whatever type) that is matter and needs energy to twiddle the bits, etc.
Information can be either , but must be carried by something. That's where energy comes in.
Electromagnetic waves serve us pretty well for this purpose, in our bodies and minds as well through space.Of course boharts signal to noise ratio puts his information in the fundytard gibberish category.
EXPERT

Redding, CA

#108084 Jan 20, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>Information can be either , but must be carried by something. That's where energy comes in.
Electromagnetic waves serve us pretty well for this purpose, in our bodies and minds as well through space.Of course boharts signal to noise ratio puts his information in the fundytard gibberish category.
'Must be carried'?

You're an idiot that thinks you are smart!

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#108085 Jan 20, 2014
EXPERT wrote:
<quoted text>
'Must be carried'?
You're an idiot that thinks you are smart!
Information is carried through wires , we call it telecommunications, the internet etc.
But yes information is carried within our nervous systems ..in much the same way .
I don't have to think I'm smart , But I do also know even primitive ship to ship communications can be done by lamps and Morse code , the carrier in this scenario is light.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108086 Jan 20, 2014
EXPERT wrote:
<quoted text>
'Must be carried'?
You're an idiot that thinks you are smart!
You projecting again?

After all that's why you called yourself 'expert'.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#108087 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
You projecting again?
After all that's why you called yourself 'expert'.
Can you really be an expert at ignorance? It hardly seems fair that he use that moniker when he doesn't even have to try.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108088 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Those terms are subjective. A more appropriate term would be "arranged" or "configured", as neither of those automatically imply an intelligence behind them as default.
But I still don't know how to MEASURE the difference between the paper plane and the space shuttle. How is complexity measured? What method are you using to measure them? What exactly are you counting?
As usual, when the answer is obvious you resort to evasions and denial

Disorganized complexity would be a pile of computer parts , organized complexity would be the computer.

Just like a puddle of enzymes amino acids and proteins would be disorganized

A living cell ,( as you well know), is organized complexity.

Now stick your head back into denial

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108089 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Frankly you don't even come close to having the edication to say that, other than the mere ability to say it without really understanding what you mean.
<quoted text>
The first problem isn't a problem. Information does not exist. The second problem is how we got from RNA to DNA. This is a problem. For abiogenesis researchers, who are currently looking into it. However the theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.
<quoted text>
Actually there is. It's called chemistry. Creates them all the time every day, all over the world.
How is complexity measured?
total denial

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