Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 219597 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108056 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Please explain how DNA self assembled and where did that information come from
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.

How is complexity measured? How do you know which is more complex out of the paper plane and the shuttle? What method of measurement are you using? What precisely is it you are counting?
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>"Information is information, neither matter nor energy . No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive"

Norbert Weiner .........MIT mathematician and father of cybernetics
So he's NOT a biologist? Thought so.
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>RNA ... isn't an answer, but you already knew that
Since you don't have an answer either it doesn't matter. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. How is complexity measured?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108057 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did the DNA code get it's information?
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.

This is not the abiogenesis debate forum. This is not the chemistry debate forum. This is the evolution forum. Abiogenesis remains a hypothesis and no-one has claimed it to be otherwise. It is irrelevant to the fact of evolution, due to the fact that life is here either way.

How is complexity measured?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108058 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
what an idiotic response
information is information, neither matter nor energy.
That's because information does not exist. I know that response will make you go "WHAAAAAAA???", but that's okay. I can beat you over the head with that point too, no problem.

But until we get around to that, I will just ask: How is complexity measured?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108059 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
The only factual part of your statement was the first sentence, The rest of your statement was just grasping at straws.
Frankly you don't even come close to having the edication to say that, other than the mere ability to say it without really understanding what you mean.
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>They are two problems of the first DNA, Where did the information come from, and how did it self assemble.
The first problem isn't a problem. Information does not exist. The second problem is how we got from RNA to DNA. This is a problem. For abiogenesis researchers, who are currently looking into it. However the theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>There is no none natural process that can do those.
Actually there is. It's called chemistry. Creates them all the time every day, all over the world.

How is complexity measured?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108060 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
If you don't know, just say it! instead of bullsheete.
Explain the process of how your curry ingredients come together on their own and cook themselves to get your great result.
That's really how silly your reasoning is
The theory of evolution doesn't rely on abiogenesis. How is complexity measured?

Take your time Bo.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108061 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow! RNA polymerase is an enzyme . It does not produce information for DNA .
No, humans produce information for DNA. I already explained this to you. DNA is a protein molecule, consisting of the chemicals adenine, cytosine, guanine and thymine.
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>You are astonishing actually. Something assembles itself? The lengths you people go to defend your religion.
No religion needed. Plants assemble themselves. They do not all require an "intelligent planter". In fact evidence indicates they were around before intelligent life was.

How is complexity measured?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108062 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
The creationist beef stew:
Cut 1 lb chuck cut into chunks , add
carrots, potato's, celery ,poblano peppers, onions,
spices, and one shiner bock beer
put all into crock pot and cook on low for 6 hours until done.
The evolutionist beef stew:
Wait for a huge storm which washes cows into the river and sweeps them down stream, during their plunge their skins are removed by the river rocks and the bodies are shredded by the force of the flood waters into bite size chunks and deposited into ponds, there they mix with potato's , carrots, spices, beer and other vegetables collected by the water. Eventually the earths thermal heat cooks the stew into a luscious treat for all. All done by natural forces.
p.s.... science is still working on where the shiner bock came from but natural causes are presumed
No, evolutionist stew is eat the cow raw. Still a viable meal, but note how artificial processes are just different enough to natural phenomena to demonstrate your analogy is flawed. You may as well have just relied on the old creationist staple Man makes cars/computers/houses/whatever therefore God make humans.

But your analogy is still an analogy, and made without evidence.

How is complexity measured?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108063 Jan 20, 2014
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Dude was *stealing a car.*(or stealing from cars). That is not a similar case.
Woz not!

>:-(
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108065 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
You have just shown your bare butt in public by admitting that you are clueless about the advancement of modem genetics.
You also bared it again by claiming that information was neither matter nor energy. It can be both.
In a sense, it IS both. In that it exists as brain states in our heads.

But in the sense that Bo is using it, it doesn't exist. "Information" is completely independent from both energy and matter.

He's about to find out the hard way.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108066 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
You have just shown your bare butt in public by admitting that you are clueless about the advancement of modem genetics.
You also bared it again by claiming that information was neither matter nor energy. It can be both.
"Information is information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive "

Norbert Weiner.......MIT Mathematician and father of cybernetics

As usual when you evolutionary religionists have no answers you accuse people of being uneducated , ignorant and blinded by religion, when it's you who have exposed your own lack of knowledge.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108067 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
No, evolutionist stew is eat the cow raw. Still a viable meal, but note how artificial processes are just different enough to natural phenomena to demonstrate your analogy is flawed. You may as well have just relied on the old creationist staple Man makes cars/computers/houses/whatever therefore God make humans.
But your analogy is still an analogy, and made without evidence.
How is complexity measured?
Oh,no,no, the evolutionist beef stew process is absolutely true . All the building blocks for the stew are readily available and the natural forces are obviously capable of rendering this stew with no need of any outside intelligence or deity. Given enough time and probabilities the above scenario will produce a variety of soups and stews

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108068 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
No, evolutionist stew is eat the cow raw. Still a viable meal, but note how artificial processes are just different enough to natural phenomena to demonstrate your analogy is flawed. You may as well have just relied on the old creationist staple Man makes cars/computers/houses/whatever therefore God make humans.
But your analogy is still an analogy, and made without evidence.
How is complexity measured?
organized and disorganized complexity. posited by Warren Weaver 1948

Question, is a life form disorganized or organized

take your time

“When you treat people as they ”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#108069 Jan 20, 2014
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Wrong. Like i said, nothing can evolve without a cause or maker. You for example, came through your parents( maker). So by that, a maker or creator exist.
What you said and what you believe is irrelevant. What is evidential fact makes you look a fool
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> And again, you are being delusional in your judgement. English, like every other languages started from many sources, but that credit should be given to them, that is why no other nations on earth are called the English. Can you dispute that?
There you go, contradicting yourself again

First you said and I quote “English started in England.”

Then you said, and I quote” English, like every other languages started from many sources”

Are you not aware of your confusion here?

Why should the credit be given to the English? The language developed over hundreds of years and you have just stated “English, like every other languages started from many sources” Perhaps some of the credit should go to these many sources. Perhaps some to ancient Rome, perhaps some to northern Europe, perhaps some to France. All places where the English language started
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> The people of the United states are called Americans, those in Canada are called, Canadians. But only England English, why? And i hope you knew about the English Americans and Canadians?
And the majority of the people in the US speak English and many of the people in Canada speak English.

How about Scotland, Ireland, what about Barbados, Cameroon, Ghana, the Philippines. What about Australia?

You condescending prick.
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> And conclusively for evolution, there is no evolution or changes without creation. There must be creation before evolution. A good example is mutation.
Yes of course but the fact that a thing must be created does not imply a creator. There is nothing in quantum science to say that effect cannot come before or is even related to cause. And of course you are confusing the birth of the universe with evolution. This is typical of a godbot who has no comprehension of time

“When you treat people as they ”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#108070 Jan 20, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
In a sense, it IS both. In that it exists as brain states in our heads.
But in the sense that Bo is using it, it doesn't exist. "Information" is completely independent from both energy and matter.
He's about to find out the hard way.
I can’t agree with the Bo idea, information requires either/or energy and matter, without it then it simply cannot exist.

The brain is matter requiring energy to work

Or perhaps the ROM/RAM (of whatever type) that is matter and needs energy to twiddle the bits, etc.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108071 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
"Information is information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive "
Norbert Weiner.......MIT Mathematician and father of cybernetics
As usual when you evolutionary religionists have no answers you accuse people of being uneducated , ignorant and blinded by religion, when it's you who have exposed your own lack of knowledge.
So he's not a biologist? Thought so.

Oh wait - this was dealt with already. Repeating an appeal to authority fallacy is still a fallacy. Doesn't matter how many smartass names you can name, all that matters is the evidence.

“When you treat people as they ”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#108072 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
"Information is information, neither matter nor energy. No materialism that fails to take account of this can survive "
Norbert Weiner.......MIT Mathematician and father of cybernetics
As usual when you evolutionary religionists have no answers you accuse people of being uneducated , ignorant and blinded by religion, when it's you who have exposed your own lack of knowledge.
Just because you do not understand the relationship between energy/matter and information is not my problem

Ahh right so you choose to quote a guy who died 50 year ago. Sorry bud mathematics, psychology and neuroscience have moved on a bit since then – please try and keep up.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/...
“facts provided or learned about something or someone:”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inform...
1.knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance;
2.knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data
3.the act or fact of informing.
4.an office, station, service, or employee whose function is to provide information to the public:

Note that every definition requires either/or energy/matter

You see there are answers, You problem is that they are answers you choose to ignore and this is why you will remain ignorant.

“We explore because we are curious, not because we wish to develop grand views of reality or better widgets.”
&#8213; Brian Cox

Note he is still alive and working…
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108073 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh,no,no, the evolutionist beef stew process is absolutely true . All the building blocks for the stew are readily available and the natural forces are obviously capable of rendering this stew with no need of any outside intelligence or deity. Given enough time and probabilities the above scenario will produce a variety of soups and stews
Your analogy is flawed. Remember the ocean itself is a stew, as all a stew is is merely solid pieces of food inside a liquid medium. And yet, as far as we can tell, no one was needed to design the ocean.

Repeating fallacies without addressing the content of our posts is merely repeating fallacies. This has been a long-standing flaw of yours. This is why you always lose your arguments and these debates cannot progress. Note the differences in our respective operandi - I deal with all your claims, sometimes point for point if necessary. You repeat arguments we've already addressed and "counter" them with the same post we just debunked.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108074 Jan 20, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
organized and disorganized complexity. posited by Warren Weaver 1948

This does not answer my question. Thanks again for avoiding it.

[QUOTE who="bohart"]<quo ted text>
Question, is a life form disorganized or organized
take your time
Those terms are subjective. A more appropriate term would be "arranged" or "configured", as neither of those automatically imply an intelligence behind them as default.

But I still don't know how to MEASURE the difference between the paper plane and the space shuttle. How is complexity measured? What method are you using to measure them? What exactly are you counting?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108075 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
I can’t agree with the Bo idea, information requires either/or energy and matter, without it then it simply cannot exist.
The brain is matter requiring energy to work
Or perhaps the ROM/RAM (of whatever type) that is matter and needs energy to twiddle the bits, etc.
You are correct in that information exists physically as energy and matter in the form of brain states - literally, the physical configuration of our brains. Bo rejects evolution. We accept evolution. Our personal experiences are different. So we all have different brain-states.

"Information" is what we invented to describe real world phenomena. Duck. Sun. Car. But if I say "car" to one of the Lizard People of Rigel XII it will just look at me funny and not understand. If I show it the word "car" written on a piece of paper I'll still get the same reaction. But if I gesture multiple times to a car and say "car" each time, it will understand.

But "car" is NOT the object in question. Neither is the sound "car". Nor is the writing on the paper a car. "Car" is simply the label we have **arbitrarily** decided to assign to that particular object. And because it is arbitrary, we can change that information at will. If we like we could assign the arbitrary label "apple" to that metal four-wheeled object used for transportation, as long as everybody agrees. So then if I point to the thing that brings me to work every day and you say "apple", everything's cool and we both know what we're talking about. But if somebody says "car" we'd be like WTF??

So it's important here to note that the information has changed radically, but the object in question - the device that gets us to work every day - has not. That's why information does not exist in the same way the car does - information is COMPLETELY independent from the thing in question. It is ARBITRARY. And the reason it works is due to the ARBITRARY label system we developed to describe things in the real world. It's our INTERPRETATION of "information" that helps us understand what these things are, due to the system we made up. Called language, in our case, English language. Which apparently belongs to the English!

And this is why Bo's point about "information" is deeply flawed - DNA doesn't require interpretation. In fact it couldn't work in the way it does if it did, what with it being a bunch of chemicals. As such these chemicals have particular properties and act in particular ways, no matter what we call them. And that's why we end up with specific organisms due to specific chemical and protein configurations. A geologist can garner TONS of information from a simple old rock: size, shape, mass, volume. Physical characteristics, where it was found, where these types of rock in particular are found, how they are formed, how long they take to form, how old the rock is, etc. And the geologist can write all this "information" down and present it to you on paper, USB stick, whatever. BECAUSE the information is totally independent from the object in question. The information is not the object. The object does not contain the information. The information is the system intelligent agents devised to quantify objects. Not construct them.

Long before humans, there were just simple old rocks. And no information at all.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108076 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because you do not understand the relationship between energy/matter and information is not my problem
Ahh right so you choose to quote a guy who died 50 year ago. Sorry bud mathematics, psychology and neuroscience have moved on a bit since then – please try and keep up.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/...
“facts provided or learned about something or someone:”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inform...
1.knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance;
2.knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data
3.the act or fact of informing.
4.an office, station, service, or employee whose function is to provide information to the public:
Note that every definition requires either/or energy/matter
You see there are answers, You problem is that they are answers you choose to ignore and this is why you will remain ignorant.
“We explore because we are curious, not because we wish to develop grand views of reality or better widgets.”
&#8213; Brian Cox
Note he is still alive and working…
And now Bohart is taking the "Evolution can't explain mind-body duality therefore Jews are magic!" approach.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Weird Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
2words into 2new words (May '12) 5 min -Papa-Smurf- 7,726
Word association (Jun '07) 16 min -Papa-Smurf- 6,293
The one item I don't want to be without....... 51 min Lifelover 29
Poll What are you thinking right now? (May '08) 55 min Lifelover 3,219
* LIFE IN Full Circle * 1 hr Lifelover 19
What song are you listening to right now? (Apr '08) 1 hr visitor 211,391
***Keep a Word~Drop a Word*** (Jan '10) 1 hr Taanvi 83,578
News Thousands of demonstrators protest Trump in Atl... 2 hr Obama bin ladder 1,246
El's Kitchen (Feb '09) 3 hr A TROLL NAMED SLACK 71,354
Back In The Day ... for the third time! 4 hr Enzo49 250
More from around the web