Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 164419 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#107993 Jan 16, 2014
"creation", just evidence of intelligence.

The Dude wrote:
And evidence of intelligence would be evidence of creation. For in human examples we don't tend to ascribe intelligence to phenomena unless we have at least some idea how that intelligence did whatever it is that it did. Fundies on the other hand claim things like "complexity", which might even be valid. In which case they would need to tell us how complexity is measured, what the demarcation line is between "product of intelligence" and "not necessarily product of intelligence", and how that line was determined in an objective manner via the scientific method.

As i recall that is how did thread started and sofar not getting an answer/theory form a creationists point of view.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#107994 Jan 16, 2014
bohart wrote:

I have avoided quoted the bible here because it casts pearls before swine, but it does have a verse perfect for you and your deniers of intelligent reasoning
the fool has said there is no God

Funny, since that is all the defunct OT and NT are about.
i.e. obfuscating the Obvious and bring it down to anthromorphism and socio-political emperialism.

And if not for scrambling to get 'god' back, or revivalism since the money and power does not flow like it used to, we would not even have this discussion with a group calling themselves creationists.
cancer suxs

Owatonna, MN

#107995 Jan 16, 2014
Creation is based on a 2000 year old book written by uneducated goat herders..Evolution is based on fact and testes and what we can see with our eyes.

Yea evolution is the way to go.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#107996 Jan 16, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is the stupid puddlegooist in all his glory, there is absolutely ZERO evidence to support life springing to existence on it's own so how do the comic fools reply?....there is no evidence of god! Defame experiments! hell, they don't need me they all failed you azzhole!
It's been what - 4,500 years since the author(s) of Genesis adapted Sumerian stories as the Jews' own? What have you got besides those stories? Nada. What are you motivated to want or accept besides those stories? Nada.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#107997 Jan 16, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
...As are they. That's why evangelism is a big business and they are VERY good when it comes to fundraising. Which is why the GOP likes to pander to the religious nuts (not the nice normal people who happen to be religious) so they can get all their money and get all their votes.
This is what I refer to as Jesus Inc. It's real big business here in Brazil, with all the Latter-day Saints establishments, and the likes of the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God. These establishments are usually found in the poorer parts of cities, where they rent huge, cheap warehouses and pack the people in to standing-room only sessions. Here they miraculously 'cure' the disabled sick, and perform other 'miracles'. What is sickening is that the poor followers give real money to these establishments, out of faith. Money that many of these poor families cannot afford. On any given day these "churches" are filled to capacity, and you can see some preacher on a huge wall display in the front screaming out a sermon.

How much revenue do these establishments generate? It's unknown because they are registered churches and therefore pay no tax and declare no revenue, but it's speculated to be in the billions of dollars per year in Brazil alone. This absolutely sickens me.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#107998 Jan 16, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
This is what I refer to as Jesus Inc. It's real big business here in Brazil, with all the Latter-day Saints establishments, and the likes of the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God. These establishments are usually found in the poorer parts of cities, where they rent huge, cheap warehouses and pack the people in to standing-room only sessions. Here they miraculously 'cure' the disabled sick, and perform other 'miracles'. What is sickening is that the poor followers give real money to these establishments, out of faith. Money that many of these poor families cannot afford. On any given day these "churches" are filled to capacity, and you can see some preacher on a huge wall display in the front screaming out a sermon.
How much revenue do these establishments generate? It's unknown because they are registered churches and therefore pay no tax and declare no revenue, but it's speculated to be in the billions of dollars per year in Brazil alone. This absolutely sickens me.
Bohart would throw money at them too. Though in his case I don't feel quite as sympathetic.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#107999 Jan 16, 2014
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
This is what I refer to as Jesus Inc. It's real big business here in Brazil, with all the Latter-day Saints establishments, and the likes of the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God. These establishments are usually found in the poorer parts of cities, where they rent huge, cheap warehouses and pack the people in to standing-room only sessions. Here they miraculously 'cure' the disabled sick, and perform other 'miracles'. What is sickening is that the poor followers give real money to these establishments, out of faith. Money that many of these poor families cannot afford. On any given day these "churches" are filled to capacity, and you can see some preacher on a huge wall display in the front screaming out a sermon.
How much revenue do these establishments generate? It's unknown because they are registered churches and therefore pay no tax and declare no revenue, but it's speculated to be in the billions of dollars per year in Brazil alone. This absolutely sickens me.
I know people that avoid going to church because the main thing to take there to be welcome is money.
And i know people that for that reason only go occasionally.

Some trustworthy ones at least work to a goal (a community center, a kindergarten a.s.o.) and can be seen to be held accountable.
But with these evangelical offspring it just goes in the preachers pocket.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108000 Jan 16, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yawn. Evolution does not claim there is no God.
Yawn. The point about evolution is that it shows a process by which things like DNA can develop complexity. Talk about casting a pearl before swine - you refuse to even understand the mechanism that you claim to know cannot happen. Then call anyone who has learned it and does understand it an idiot, and moreover understand how it explains the fossil record and the genome extremely well....yes, these are the idiots. Not an ignorant blow-off like you, resolute in your ignorance and proud of your stupidity, grabbing one debunked objection after another from your little sack of polished turds and flinging them about.
See? you already lied,...evolution is a process by which DNA can develop! that is utter lying bullshite!, or you simply don't know any better.

You might want to let the New York times in on your discovery about DNA development, you are the only one who knows about it

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108001 Jan 16, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, note SETI relies on SIMPLE radio patterns rather than complex ones. This is because simple patterns are far more easier to recognise than complex ones, and therefore are far more likely to be used if someone wanted to make other civilizations in space recognise that they were here. There is a REASON why even the guys at SETI came out and said ID was crap.
You on the other hand claim "complexity" is evidence of intelligence but you have no idea on how to measure it in the first place. This kinda undercuts your claims big time.
<quoted text>
Except that you're lying.
So how many times do I have to explain to you that we have NEVER claimed it happened by "chance", and why? Too many to count. So why do you continue to lie about our claims?
An apple will always fall down. It will not fall up or sideways or diagonally "by chance" (unless other forces intervene), yet despite this gravity apparently works without any intelligent intervention being necessary.
Ergo it is NOT "chance".
<quoted text>
And undirected natural forces make life all the time.
<quoted text>
Look Bo, all you have to demonstrate your claims is tell us who or what your "intelligent designer" is, what it did, how it did it, where it did it, when it did it, and how this can be determined in an objective manner via the scientific method.
<quoted text>
OH, so really all this is about God? Well no need to worry, since neither abiogenesis nor evolution, or indeed any other scientific concept claims that God definitely did not do it. Doesn't claim it did either, but doesn't say it didn't. Science is NOT atheism. So it's up to you if you prefer to place limits on an Almighty being capable of creating universes in its spare time.
But at least now you can't claim that your objections have any relevance to science. As in reality all your beefs are is that you reject science cuz you think an invisible magic Jew didit. I can see now you will never be able to compete with anybody here scientifically as your only interest is apologetics. This is why you lose every argument you attempt as you NEVER bother to address the content of people's posts. You may as well just start threatening us with eternal damnation for merely disagreeing with your religious opinions, ya know, kinda like the Phelps family.(shrug)
You spend far,far more time attacking God than defending your own idiotic beliefs, I don't blame you though.

Lord!,....undirected natural forces make life all the time?

Please explain how undirected natural forces made the first life.
you can't, all you have is a belief that it happened.

All you ever do is say jew magic, jew magic, while you believe in puddle magic.

I believe that life and it's complexity and the universe is the result of a great intelligence that is obvious to anyone not embedded in total denial to it. Can't measure complexity! what a stupid evasion ,.I'll go slow for you what's more complex, a paper airplane , or the space shuttle?

"the harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority , that compared with it , all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"

Albert Einstein

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#108002 Jan 16, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
See? you already lied,...evolution is a process by which DNA can develop! that is utter lying bullshite!, or you simply don't know any better.
You might want to let the New York times in on your discovery about DNA development, you are the only one who knows about it
Ergo if it is not read by a tiny faction of the internationally oriented Americans in New York it never existed.
Why?
Bohart never read it.
He never reads the NYT.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108003 Jan 16, 2014
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Ergo if it is not read by a tiny faction of the internationally oriented Americans in New York it never existed.
Why?
Bohart never read it.
He never reads the NYT.
Wow! you really aren't to sharp are you? google sarcasm, whew!

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#108004 Jan 16, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
You spend far,far more time attacking God than defending your own idiotic beliefs, I don't blame you though.
Lord!,....undirected natural forces make life all the time?
Please explain how undirected natural forces made the first life.
you can't, all you have is a belief that it happened.
All you ever do is say jew magic, jew magic, while you believe in puddle magic.
I believe that life and it's complexity and the universe is the result of a great intelligence that is obvious to anyone not embedded in total denial to it. Can't measure complexity! what a stupid evasion ,.I'll go slow for you what's more complex, a paper airplane , or the space shuttle?
"the harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority , that compared with it , all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"
Albert Einstein
In that case this elegance has an equal chance of being deemed god.

All the time life is made.

Laws are in action. But life in it's early state had different environments to cope with.

But there is no will or reason stating that.

It is chemistry and biochemistry (Lewis forces) and ultimately physics acting on random matter present from violent events in our past.

Find out where all the elements come from.

The idea is that we are old.

---
Can you recall the moment of your conception?

By your reasoning it is as if you are saying that evolution can only redeem itself when it can know that.

An intelligence ( with such modern notion as all-powerfull a.s.o.) could have decided to simply make some changes.

And make you aware of that.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108005 Jan 16, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Bohart would throw money at them too. Though in his case I don't feel quite as sympathetic.


Why don't you and these other ubber goobers try reading a book and educate yourselves about the universe by MIT professor Max Tegmark .....Mathematical Universe

He states that the universe isn't just described by math , but that it is math!

Math requires intelligence

or....just stick with the astronomical luck theory

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#108006 Jan 17, 2014
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
In that case this elegance has an equal chance of being deemed god.
All the time life is made.
Laws are in action. But life in it's early state had different environments to cope with.
But there is no will or reason stating that.
It is chemistry and biochemistry (Lewis forces) and ultimately physics acting on random matter present from violent events in our past.
Find out where all the elements come from.
The idea is that we are old.
---
Can you recall the moment of your conception?
By your reasoning it is as if you are saying that evolution can only redeem itself when it can know that.
An intelligence ( with such modern notion as all-powerfull a.s.o.) could have decided to simply make some changes.
And make you aware of that.
Why do you people lie all the time about life?....all the time life is made! by already existing life! that's reproduction!

That life is mere chemistry was debunked decades ago, it's a 19th century idea blown apart by electron microscopes showing life wasn't simple globs waiting to be manufactured.

DNA is a complex code, there is no known natural mechanism that creates coded information, none!

It is impossible for Evolution to explain

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#108007 Jan 17, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you people lie all the time about life?....all the time life is made! by already existing life! that's reproduction!
That life is mere chemistry was debunked decades ago, it's a 19th century idea blown apart by electron microscopes showing life wasn't simple globs waiting to be manufactured.
DNA is a complex code, there is no known natural mechanism that creates coded information, none!
It is impossible for Evolution to explain
Please provide a link to this debunk? I think I may find it interesting

The fact that godbot guesswork has been superseded by multiple (MULTIPLE) and independent lines of scientific discovery and DNA evidence really seems to upset you for some reason. That same DNA that you are quite happy to see as evidence in a court case and back it 100% you quite blatantly deny when it comes to having to defend your goddidit by magic belief.

Of course it is known how DNA is formed, Its just 4 common chemicals that are built from 5 basic elements These elements were available throughout the universe after the first proto stars exploded over 12 billion years ago. Jeez even a school kid knows this. As usual for a goddidit by magic fan, you are forgetting the one important principal - TIME

Nope it is impossible for you to understand, there is a very obvious difference

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#108008 Jan 17, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow! you really aren't to sharp are you? google sarcasm, whew!
Oh my dearest godbot you would be surprised how sharp MAAT actually is. Just because you are not bright enough to comprehend is no ones fault but your own

Google reality
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108009 Jan 17, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
See? you already lied,...evolution is a process by which DNA can develop! that is utter lying bullshite!, or you simply don't know any better.
You might want to let the New York times in on your discovery about DNA development, you are the only one who knows about it
Leave the irony meters alone, Bo.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#108010 Jan 17, 2014
bohart wrote:
You spend far,far more time attacking God than defending your own idiotic beliefs, I don't blame you though.
How can I attack something which has not even been demonstrated to exist?

No Bo, what we attack are your uneducated assertions.
bohart wrote:
Lord!,....undirected natural forces make life all the time?
Yep. Do all plants require an intelligent planter?
bohart wrote:
Please explain how undirected natural forces made the first life.
Dunno yet.(shrug) Problem?
bohart wrote:
you can't, all you have is a belief that it happened.
Since life IS here then obviously life appeared somehow. Therefore no belief is required.
bohart wrote:
All you ever do is say jew magic, jew magic, while you believe in puddle magic.
Except there is nothing magic about chemistry. Unless you're claiming that all plants are magic.
bohart wrote:
I believe that life and it's complexity and the universe is the result of a great intelligence that is obvious to anyone not embedded in total denial to it.
Your beliefs are irrelevant.

However, I will point out that I have never denied the possibility of such a being. But there are three points you need to remember:

1 - If it exists, it's responsible for abiogenesis. Which is why it's rather stupid for you to argue against it, as you are simultaneously arguing against your claim.

2 - If it exists, it's responsible for evolution. Which is why it's rather stupid for you to argue against it, as you are simultaneously arguing against your claim.

3 - If it exists, it doesn't appear to have made itself amenable to the scientific method - it's not as if God pops its arm down now and then so we can do a blood test. Which is why it's rather stupid for you to claim it has anything at all to do with science. UNLESS you can demonstrate how it DOES pass the scientific method. So far no one on the planet has ever been able to do so in the entirety of human history.
bohart wrote:
Can't measure complexity! what a stupid evasion ,.I'll go slow for you what's more complex, a paper airplane , or the space shuttle?
I don't know, because I don't know what you're counting that gives one object a greater value than the other. I don't know how you're measuring complexity.

So go slow for me - obviously out of the space shuttle and the paper plane, one of them scores higher on your measuring scale. So how exactly is "complexity" being measured here? What precisely are you counting?
bohart wrote:
"the harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority , that compared with it , all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"
Albert Einstein
Misquoting an appeal to authority has no bearing on this discussion. Unless Einstein was able to demonstrate the existence of invisble Jew wizards that he didn't even believe in anyway. Remember, he was not an atheist, but he was not a theist either. Not that it matters which he was since his philosophical or theological opinions don't matter.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108011 Jan 17, 2014
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
You spend far,far more time attacking God than defending your own idiotic beliefs, I don't blame you though.
Lord!,....undirected natural forces make life all the time?
Please explain how undirected natural forces made the first life.
you can't, all you have is a belief that it happened.
All you ever do is say jew magic, jew magic, while you believe in puddle magic.
I believe that life and it's complexity and the universe is the result of a great intelligence that is obvious to anyone not embedded in total denial to it. Can't measure complexity! what a stupid evasion ,.I'll go slow for you what's more complex, a paper airplane , or the space shuttle?
"the harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority , that compared with it , all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"
Albert Einstein
He's not attacking God Bohart, he's attacking you, better yet your closed-mindedness on science. I've not read once where he directly opposed the existence of God - it's possible. improbable, but until someone can outright prove his existence, then only possible. I think most of the forum commenters opposing your stubbornness is aimed more at the Bible, and how benighted it is to claim it is the written rule based on facts, rather than a book of metaphors. But that's just my two cents. Take it at face value.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#108012 Jan 17, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
How can I attack something which has not even been demonstrated to exist?
Oops, sorry Dude, you beat me to it.

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