Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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“I have upset the hand of god”

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#107766
Dec 26, 2013
 
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Please be a "commentator" on an appropriate thread. This thread being INAPPROPRIATE.
Thank you.
Agreed.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

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Orlando

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#107767
Dec 26, 2013
 
Found this, comments solicited, please:

Nahmanides[Nah-man-nid-ez]( &#1512;&#1489;&#14 97; &#1502;&#1513;&#14 92; &#1489;&#1503; &#1504;&#1495;&#15 02;&#1503;), also known as Rabbi Moses ben Na&#7717;man Girondi, Bonastruc ça (de) Porta and by his acronym Ramban (1194 – 1270), was a leading medieval Jewish scholar, Spanish Sephardic rabbi, philosopher, physician, kabbalist, and biblical commentator. He was raised, studied, and lived for most of his life in Girona, Catalonia.

His commentary on the creation of the world describes the universe expanding, and matter forming:

"...At the briefest instant following creation all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. The matter at this time was very thin, so intangible, that it did not have real substance. It did have, however, a potential to gain substance and form and to become tangible matter. From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred. This initially thin noncorporeal substance took on the tangible aspects of matter as we know it. From this initial act of creation, from this etherieally thin pseudosubstance, everything that has existed, or will ever exist, was, is, and will be formed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahmanides

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

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#107768
Dec 26, 2013
 
Kong_ wrote:
Found this, comments solicited, please:
Nahmanides[Nah-man-nid-ez]( &#1512;&#1489;&#14 97; &#1502;&#1513;&#14 92; &#1489;&#1503; &#1504;&#1495;&#15 02;&#1503;), also known as Rabbi Moses ben Na&#7717;man Girondi, Bonastruc ça (de) Porta and by his acronym Ramban (1194 – 1270), was a leading medieval Jewish scholar, Spanish Sephardic rabbi, philosopher, physician, kabbalist, and biblical commentator. He was raised, studied, and lived for most of his life in Girona, Catalonia.
His commentary on the creation of the world describes the universe expanding, and matter forming:
"...At the briefest instant following creation all the matter of the universe was concentrated in a very small place, no larger than a grain of mustard. The matter at this time was very thin, so intangible, that it did not have real substance. It did have, however, a potential to gain substance and form and to become tangible matter. From the initial concentration of this intangible substance in its minute location, the substance expanded, expanding the universe as it did so. As the expansion progressed, a change in the substance occurred. This initially thin noncorporeal substance took on the tangible aspects of matter as we know it. From this initial act of creation, from this etherieally thin pseudosubstance, everything that has existed, or will ever exist, was, is, and will be formed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahmanides
Read a little deeper and you will find:

Nahmanides went on to show that the Biblical prophets regarded the future messiah as a human, a person of flesh and blood, and not as a divinity, in the way that Christians view Jesus. He noted that their promises of a reign of universal peace and justice had not yet been fulfilled. On the contrary, since the appearance of Jesus, the world had been filled with violence and injustice, and among all denominations the Christians were the most warlike.

"[... it seems most strange that...] the Creator of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards... he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, simply cannot tolerate these assertions. You have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit.[I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never accept them."

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

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#107769
Dec 26, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Read a little deeper and you will find:
Nahmanides went on to show that the Biblical prophets regarded the future messiah as a human, a person of flesh and blood, and not as a divinity, in the way that Christians view Jesus. He noted that their promises of a reign of universal peace and justice had not yet been fulfilled. On the contrary, since the appearance of Jesus, the world had been filled with violence and injustice, and among all denominations the Christians were the most warlike.
"[... it seems most strange that...] the Creator of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards... he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, simply cannot tolerate these assertions. You have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit.[I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never accept them."
Is it surprising to you that a Jewish Rabbi would have this perspective about Jesus?

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

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#107770
Dec 26, 2013
 
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it surprising to you that a Jewish Rabbi would have this perspective about Jesus?
What is surprising is if you read the whole article. He seems to believes parts here and there.

He says things like this:

Besides the animal soul, which is derived from the "Supreme powers" and is common to all creatures, man possesses a special soul. This special soul, which is a direct emanation from God, existed before the creation of the world. Through the medium of man it enters the material life; and at the dissolution of its medium it either returns to its original source or enters the body of another man. This belief is, according to Nahmanides, the basis of the levirate marriage, the child of which inherits not only the name of the brother of his fleshly father, but also his soul, and thus continues its existence on the earth. The resurrection spoken of by the prophets, which will take place after the coming of the Messiah, is referred by Nahmanides to the body. The physical body may, through the influence of the soul, transform itself into so pure an essence that it will become eternal.

So he definitely believes in God the Creator but thinks Jesus is a fluke. He seems to kind of be all over the grid on what he says.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

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#107771
Dec 26, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
What is surprising is if you read the whole article. He seems to believes parts here and there.
He says things like this:
Besides the animal soul, which is derived from the "Supreme powers" and is common to all creatures, man possesses a special soul. This special soul, which is a direct emanation from God, existed before the creation of the world. Through the medium of man it enters the material life; and at the dissolution of its medium it either returns to its original source or enters the body of another man. This belief is, according to Nahmanides, the basis of the levirate marriage, the child of which inherits not only the name of the brother of his fleshly father, but also his soul, and thus continues its existence on the earth. The resurrection spoken of by the prophets, which will take place after the coming of the Messiah, is referred by Nahmanides to the body. The physical body may, through the influence of the soul, transform itself into so pure an essence that it will become eternal.
So he definitely believes in God the Creator but thinks Jesus is a fluke. He seems to kind of be all over the grid on what he says.
I respectfully disagree.

You're appear to be under the assumption that the Christian dogma that you observe today, is the same set of beliefs that has been practiced since antiquity, by both Christians AND Jews.
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>So he definitely believes in God the Creator but thinks Jesus is a fluke. He seems to kind of be all over the grid on what he says.
Ummm......He was a JEWISH RABBI.

I believe if you were to inquire ANY Jewish Rabbi, you would find their beliefs quite consistent with Nahmanides.

But my original comment about Nahmanides was his concept of the instant of Creation.
It sounds familiar, no?

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#107772
Dec 26, 2013
 
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I respectfully disagree.
You're appear to be under the assumption that the Christian dogma that you observe today, is the same set of beliefs that has been practiced since antiquity, by both Christians AND Jews.
<quoted text>
Ummm......He was a JEWISH RABBI.
I believe if you were to inquire ANY Jewish Rabbi, you would find their beliefs quite consistent with Nahmanides.
But my original comment about Nahmanides was his concept of the instant of Creation.
It sounds familiar, no?
Sure does sound familiar and he believes God did it and said it way before science had an inkling thought of the BBT <<< I think but could be wrong.

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#107773
Dec 26, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure does sound familiar and he believes God did it and said it way before science had an inkling thought of the BBT <<< I think but could be wrong.
I don't think anyone here, myself included, would be disappointed if the "root cause" of the BBT would turn out to be a Supreme Being.

Nor the root cause of abiogenesis, or evolution, for that matter.

As of yet, there is no evidence for this Supreme Being, however. It's simple: If there is a God, He used the forces of nature (including those associated with abiogenesis and evolution) to do His bidding.

But the Genesis story is bunk.

As I said previously, evidence for this Deity's existence is not available to factor in His participation.


“I am Sisyphus”

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#107774
Dec 26, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Read a little deeper and you will find:
Nahmanides went on to show that the Biblical prophets regarded the future messiah as a human, a person of flesh and blood, and not as a divinity, in the way that Christians view Jesus. He noted that their promises of a reign of universal peace and justice had not yet been fulfilled. On the contrary, since the appearance of Jesus, the world had been filled with violence and injustice, and among all denominations the Christians were the most warlike.
"[... it seems most strange that...] the Creator of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards... he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, simply cannot tolerate these assertions. You have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit.[I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never accept them."

Nice quote.

But I forget what point you might have been trying to make. It seems that he has later day Christiandom pegged to a T. Or would that be nailed to a cross?

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#107775
Dec 26, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure does sound familiar and he believes God did it and said it way before science had an inkling thought of the BBT <<< I think but could be wrong.

I have no problem with BBT + God, but God does not refute BBT.

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#107776
Dec 26, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no problem with BBT + God, but God does not refute BBT.
But modern cosmology (science) DOES refute the literal Genesis.

Whether or not there is a God involved.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#107777
Dec 26, 2013
 
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
But modern cosmology (science) DOES refute the literal Genesis.
Whether or not there is a God involved.
What you don't think gawd said let the water in the sky come to one place and let dry land appear?
The Dude

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#107778
Dec 27, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
The saddest part about it all is it is not a search of the truth. It is about one side against the other side and both sides lie and make shyt up tying to convince people to come to their side. Neither side knows or will ever know the truth about it. The battle between evolutionists and creationists have became as bad if not worse than the battle between democrats and republicans. If your on their side they will tell you what you want to hear and if your not on their side they will lie to you to try to get you on their side. SMDH
You're really not getting it, bub. The battle between the 'evolutionists' and creationists is political. Evolution already won the scientific debate, long before you were born. Today, there IS no scientific debate over whether or not evolution occurred.

By the way, I've never lied to you to try and get you on "my side". I don't even want you on my side anyway.(shrug)
The Dude

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#107779
Dec 27, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Both sides have lied. It is that simple. If you deny that then you are a liar.
Except when evolutionary scientists have lied it's evolutionary scientists that have exposed them and corrected their claims.
The Dude

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#107780
Dec 27, 2013
 

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Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> The same with all world languages. Henceforth, start using that.
BORNEO OWNS ENGLISH!!! Move on!
anonymous

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#107781
Dec 27, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
BORNEO OWNS ENGLISH!!! Move on!
Wasn't that copyright to English traded to Atlantis a few year back for the copyright to UNIX?

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#107782
Dec 28, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Both sides have lied. It is that simple. If you deny that then you are a liar.
I cannot speak for every post written for both sides.

I simply want you to back your claims of parity with some real examples, because I doubt you can do it.

We don't need lies and in this evolution debate and I have never knowingly told one in defence of evolution.

So I expect some substance from you, not just blind accusations.

And I expect that you know this is the case but making the claim you have is your own last ditch attempt not to confront the overwhelming weight of evidence that you know is on the side of evolution.

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#107783
Dec 28, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure does sound familiar and he believes God did it and said it way before science had an inkling thought of the BBT <<< I think but could be wrong.
We have good evidence of the BBT. And of evolution, for that matter. None of these things disprove God, only the specific local creation tradition of some primitive goatherds.

And still waiting for a straight answer from you about the lies you claimed have been told on the forum in order to support evolution or the BBT. Admit it, you have nothing substantial.

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#107784
Dec 28, 2013
 

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Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
We have good evidence of the BBT. And of evolution, for that matter. None of these things disprove God, only the specific local creation tradition of some primitive goatherds.
And still waiting for a straight answer from you about the lies you claimed have been told on the forum in order to support evolution or the BBT. Admit it, you have nothing substantial.
I said both sides lie. And both sides do. I id not claim that for this forum. I claim in general. Both sides have lied and made shyt up. We all know it.

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#107786
Dec 28, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I said both sides lie. And both sides do. I id not claim that for this forum. I claim in general. Both sides have lied and made shyt up. We all know it.
I very very rarely see evolutionists lie. Sometimes a mistake can be made. That is not a lie. And many creationists may be honest and only make the mistake of using lying sources.

But there are clearly creationists that lie. Kent Hovvind is my favorite example. He lied not only about evolution, he lied about how much he owed in taxes. The former has no penalty. He learned the hard way that the latter does have a very severe penalty.

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