Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“A have offended, Brickie, Dark”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Blue, Suncore, Replay whoever

#106209 Nov 18, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
But what if God did it so knowing someday He would need to trip up evo with that sequence. Back to the phylogenetic tree now, who was there to see all this?
"And God was pleased with what he saw. 22 He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number".
We know the above is true in the present, but mock the statement that no one witnessed from the past? Evo's are everywhere at once.
What if. Maybe suppose. Coulda. Shoulda. Woulda. I don't know it is true. In fact, the evidence confirms this as an allegory and not a factual retelling of creation. You want to believe it fine. But it isn't science.

“A have offended, Brickie, Dark”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Blue, Suncore, Replay whoever

#106210 Nov 18, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
If you would spend some time and really consider the nonlife to life question rather than take the road of evo oversimplification, you could learn something like question dogma. By the way, I planted that little piece about evo and strata just to see if you ever took a day of Geo 101,- hook line and sinker..Hope you learned something.
You speak of dogma and simplicity in a sneer at others. You represent nothing, but dogma and simplicity. If your faith is so frail that it depends on the existence of Genesis as a fact, then you don't have very strong faith to begin with.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#106211 Nov 18, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have yet to find a Prokaryote with no motor in the lit. You have to "believe" evolution created the first working cell, there is no proof or mechanism anywhere to support this in science so it must be outside that realm. Simply because a person can switch existing body parts is far different than building a working cell with chemicals with no outside order. As I pointed out before, you basically need to embrace "spontaneous generation" as the mechanism crossing the non-life to life barrier, disproved by Crick and others substantiated as the microscopes got bigger.
We know alot about amino structures by observation, a few labs can even adapt them, like the complex materials in a Shuttle doesn't make a shuttle fall together, someone needs to layout a plan, an imagined working end result with purpose, that's intelligence acting on matter, not random plan-less accidents playing with chemicals for no purpose. Dean Kenyon did well in Evo theory circles until he determined that pre-coded DNA was needed to run the amino construction, so he was faced with the unsolvable naturalistically. The data and assembly systems working together pointed to design, not accidents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =tb6xdaC9hrMXX
Cyanobacteria

All bacteria that does not have a whip or tail (flagella)
have no motor, there are a few variants that have some of the parts, and no functional whip. Bur there are many with no of the machinery. In fact the powered version is the minority.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#106212 Nov 18, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Cyanobacteria
All bacteria that does not have a whip or tail (flagella)
have no motor, there are a few variants that have some of the parts, and no functional whip. Bur there are many with no of the machinery. In fact the powered version is the minority.
And we know that the oldest life that we can observe in the fossil records was cyanobacteria. And of course abiogenesis says that they came from something even simpler.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#106213 Nov 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
And we know that the oldest life that we can observe in the fossil records was cyanobacteria. And of course abiogenesis says that they came from something even simpler.
It could predate Earth.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#106214 Nov 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
And we know that the oldest life that we can observe in the fossil records was cyanobacteria. And of course abiogenesis says that they came from something even simpler.


You might find this interesting.

http://www.chromatographytoday.com/news/elect...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#106215 Nov 18, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> It could predate Earth.
Possibly. I am not a believer of panspermia, but I won't say it is impossible.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#106216 Nov 18, 2013
And I need to add one more time, it does not matter what the original source of life on Earth was.

When creationists focus too much on that it shows that they have already lost the debate.

“Evolution is Variation”

Since: Nov 13

Dublin, Ireland

#106217 Nov 19, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Possibly. I am not a believer of panspermia, but I won't say it is impossible.
You don't believe panspermiain? It is only the hypothesis that life exists throughout the Universe, distributed by meteoroids, asteroids, comets[1][2] and planetoids. I have seen you say more than once that there could be life in the universe being life is here on earth. I think I have even seen you say we have evidence of life from meteors.

So lets get this clear. You don't believe in panspermia but you do believe there could be life else where in our universe and life has been possibly found in meteors.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#106218 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
But wait, grasshopper have question, please explain how "primordial soup" in reducing atmosphere popped out a Prokaryote bacteria with a 4 million code DNA and an Axial Proton powered motor??? Look at the Prokaryote in Wiki and see, it's true, complex in the beginning, the chemical to life problem has never been repeated in the laboratory, nor solved. Is any science being done here to support this story? Seem you have a huge problem in the "begining".
Isn't this like Moses claiming he spoke to God on Mt. Sinai and came back without the tablets? This wiki story oversimplifies and skips some real problems, no matter how many signed on to it. You must answer the first question otherwise the whole notion is questionable.
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/a-questio...
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/a-questio...
You are lying again - we went over this weeks ago.

NO biologist claims that a fully modern prokaryote with flagellum emerged from the primordial soup billions of years ago.

When I challenged you on this stupidity of yours, all you could say was that "text books show bacteria with flagella"

DUH.

Now, go and find the specific claim by biologists that bacteria were as complex in the beginning as they are now...

Vile little creatard liar, all you prove is that you have no GOOD arguments.

“Evolution is Variation”

Since: Nov 13

Dublin, Ireland

#106219 Nov 19, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are lying again - we went over this weeks ago.
NO biologist claims that a fully modern prokaryote with flagellum emerged from the primordial soup billions of years ago.
When I challenged you on this stupidity of yours, all you could say was that "text books show bacteria with flagella"
DUH.
Now, go and find the specific claim by biologists that bacteria were as complex in the beginning as they are now...
Vile little creatard liar, all you prove is that you have no GOOD arguments.
So how were the first prokaryote's composed. Did they have a flagellum or not. If they had a flagellum was it functional and useful for self-propulsion or was it non-self-propulsion functional and only acted more or less as a thermometer?

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#106220 Nov 19, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, it is. Although, as I say, it has some words in common with Irish. "Mawr" in Welsh, for example, is "Mór" in Irish. They both mean "big".
Mór, put me in mind of the Welsh for carrot, a word I have often used to refer to chuckles. It’s perhaps the only word I know in welsh.

It’s not so bad now but up to a few years ago there was a problem when driving in Wales. The road signs are written in both English and Welsh. Welsh language activists would go around and spray paint the English directions out resulting in lots of lost tourists.

Talking about road signs, I think you may like this one http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/21/art...

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106221 Nov 19, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I am not surprised that you haven't found any literature on them, you obviously aren't well versed in the literature or you stopped looking once you found what you thought was the case cracker.
Yes, please post more arguments for incredulity, we don't see enough of that.
Yes, Dean Kenyon can't find a reason for it so obviously the best choice is to go with the action of an unverifiable supernatural designer. Makes perfect sense to me. You should just run with that as an explanation for anything. Oh, I guess you do.
You don't understand biology and you just want it to be religion, so you follow Dean down the easy path of less work and no critical thought.
There are bacteria that don't have the flagellum we are talking about. They are well known, widely distributed and more interesting than you are.
Kenyon was really popular with the materialists but fell out of sorts fast when he used his brain, was a good example of being "expelled" for documenting his conclusions against the dogma. Then they screamed "Fire" and all ran to Gould for help. Gould then postulated "punctuated equilibrium" (wow, very scholarly and intelligent term to "believe" in) which meant due to the embarrassing absence of intermediates the world was looking for, he asserted that evolution must have occurred quickly somewhere minimizing the need to find any fossils to support evo., wow, that was close, issue fixed - "next"..lets have a go a whales.."next"..

So here are your links -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/courses/bio141/lecg...

Notice in the wiki link that the number #1, not #2, but #1 structure in the table is a flagella. Also listed is the 3.6 BY. age.

So they find evidence a one of the most durable life forms on earth on metamorphic rock dated by isotope means, not any other uniform method like HE, PO 214, diamond carbon and so on. Then they pick the vary oldest of the 4 major isotope methods that have been proven over and over to conflict by up to 50% and "date" the Prokaryote. Talk about cherry picking. All we heard about in school was the isotopes. Throw your bible away over them, what a joke.

Better get someone from talkorigins on the line to wiki ASAP and tell them to fix that before someone thinks about it..

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106222 Nov 19, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are lying again - we went over this weeks ago.
NO biologist claims that a fully modern prokaryote with flagellum emerged from the primordial soup billions of years ago.
When I challenged you on this stupidity of yours, all you could say was that "text books show bacteria with flagella"
DUH.
Now, go and find the specific claim by biologists that bacteria were as complex in the beginning as they are now...
Vile little creatard liar, all you prove is that you have no GOOD arguments.
Better read my post to Dan, and apologize.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106223 Nov 19, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Cyanobacteria
All bacteria that does not have a whip or tail (flagella)
have no motor, there are a few variants that have some of the parts, and no functional whip. Bur there are many with no of the machinery. In fact the powered version is the minority.
I just searched the web and noticed every time a Prokaryote was mentioned in the lit. a Flagella was associated. Then I looked up wiki and there it was, flagella and all. Please see my post to Dan. What got me started was Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box.

All bacteria have a cell engine and DNA. I read the most simple have million's of codons. This is not simple ABC stuff - it works orderly. Kenyon at first thought that the chemical valances self attracted into amino's and then evolved into the cell. Now in CHem class we learn things about this, and at that point it made sense. When he and others looked closer (I am sure he was influenced by someone else, they mention a student), he couldn't escape the fact that the amino's cannot self form. Then when finding that the DNA was the conductor of the orchestra he conceded. All too complex. The last half of the story never made it to the press nor the HS texts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_codon_table

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#106224 Nov 19, 2013
Thats a knee slapper wrote:
<quoted text>
So how were the first prokaryote's composed. Did they have a flagellum or not. If they had a flagellum was it functional and useful for self-propulsion or was it non-self-propulsion functional and only acted more or less as a thermometer?
Almost certainly no flagellum. Whether they had the precursor secretory molecules in their membranes is also doubtful. Those developed later.

For that matter, it isn't even clear that the earliest life was protein-based. It may well have been dominated by RNA.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106225 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
If you would spend some time and really consider the nonlife to life question rather than take the road of evo oversimplification, you could learn something like question dogma. By the way, I planted that little piece about evo and strata just to see if you ever took a day of Geo 101,- hook line and sinker..Hope you learned something.
Ain't nothing more simplified than Goddidit. We've yet to see a post from you that shows you have the slightest clue what you're talking about.(shrug) You're all rhetoric, dodges and lies, 100%. The day you start addressing anyone's posts in an honest rational manner will be the day I start believing in Biblical miracles.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#106226 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Kenyon was really popular with the materialists but fell out of sorts fast when he used his brain, was a good example of being "expelled" for documenting his conclusions against the dogma. Then they screamed "Fire" and all ran to Gould for help. Gould then postulated "punctuated equilibrium" (wow, very scholarly and intelligent term to "believes" in) which meant due to the embarrassing absence of intermediates the world was looking for, he asserted that evolution must have occurred quickly somewhere minimizing the need to find any fossils to support evo., wow, that was close, issue fixed - "next"..lets have a go a whales.."next"..
So here are your links -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/courses/bio141/lecg...
Notice in the wiki link that the number #1, not #2, but #1 structure in the table is a flagella. Also listed is the 3.6 BY. age.
So they find evidence a one of the most durable life forms on earth on metamorphic rock dated by isotope means, not any other uniform method like HE, PO 214, diamond carbon and so on. Then they pick the vary oldest of the 4 major isotope methods that have been proven over and over to conflict by up to 50% and "date" the Prokaryote. Talk about cherry picking. All we heard about in school was the isotopes. Throw your bible away over them, what a joke.
Better get someone from talkorigins on the line to wiki ASAP and tell them to fix that before someone thinks about it..
And once again we have a diagram of a "typical" prokaryote with a flagellum but no claim that the ealriest prokaryotes had them.

But no doubt you will repeat your lie every few weeks.

And btw what Gould called PE was clearly discussed by Darwin in the Origin of the Species, a book I would bet money on that you have never read.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106227 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
But what if God did it
Please provide objective scientific evidence of such an entity which passes the scientific method. So far no one on the planet is aware that such evidence even exists.

Remember folks! All science is wrong cuz GODDIDIT! You heard it here first!

Okay, so we DIDN'T hear it here first.
SBT wrote:
"And God was pleased with what he saw. 22 He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number".
We know the above is true in the present, but mock the statement that no one witnessed from the past? Evo's are everywhere at once.
Fish understand Hebrew? Wow.

Look out everyone, SBT is using the mighty "How do you know where you there!" argument! We're doomed fer sure!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106228 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
All we heard about in school was the isotopes. Throw your bible away over them, what a joke.
Yeah, I mean how can isotopes compare with magically poofed talking lizards and donkeys?

I'm amazed you know what a school is.(shrug)

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