Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106222 Nov 19, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are lying again - we went over this weeks ago.
NO biologist claims that a fully modern prokaryote with flagellum emerged from the primordial soup billions of years ago.
When I challenged you on this stupidity of yours, all you could say was that "text books show bacteria with flagella"
DUH.
Now, go and find the specific claim by biologists that bacteria were as complex in the beginning as they are now...
Vile little creatard liar, all you prove is that you have no GOOD arguments.
Better read my post to Dan, and apologize.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106223 Nov 19, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Cyanobacteria
All bacteria that does not have a whip or tail (flagella)
have no motor, there are a few variants that have some of the parts, and no functional whip. Bur there are many with no of the machinery. In fact the powered version is the minority.
I just searched the web and noticed every time a Prokaryote was mentioned in the lit. a Flagella was associated. Then I looked up wiki and there it was, flagella and all. Please see my post to Dan. What got me started was Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box.

All bacteria have a cell engine and DNA. I read the most simple have million's of codons. This is not simple ABC stuff - it works orderly. Kenyon at first thought that the chemical valances self attracted into amino's and then evolved into the cell. Now in CHem class we learn things about this, and at that point it made sense. When he and others looked closer (I am sure he was influenced by someone else, they mention a student), he couldn't escape the fact that the amino's cannot self form. Then when finding that the DNA was the conductor of the orchestra he conceded. All too complex. The last half of the story never made it to the press nor the HS texts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_codon_table

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#106224 Nov 19, 2013
Thats a knee slapper wrote:
<quoted text>
So how were the first prokaryote's composed. Did they have a flagellum or not. If they had a flagellum was it functional and useful for self-propulsion or was it non-self-propulsion functional and only acted more or less as a thermometer?
Almost certainly no flagellum. Whether they had the precursor secretory molecules in their membranes is also doubtful. Those developed later.

For that matter, it isn't even clear that the earliest life was protein-based. It may well have been dominated by RNA.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106225 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
If you would spend some time and really consider the nonlife to life question rather than take the road of evo oversimplification, you could learn something like question dogma. By the way, I planted that little piece about evo and strata just to see if you ever took a day of Geo 101,- hook line and sinker..Hope you learned something.
Ain't nothing more simplified than Goddidit. We've yet to see a post from you that shows you have the slightest clue what you're talking about.(shrug) You're all rhetoric, dodges and lies, 100%. The day you start addressing anyone's posts in an honest rational manner will be the day I start believing in Biblical miracles.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#106226 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Kenyon was really popular with the materialists but fell out of sorts fast when he used his brain, was a good example of being "expelled" for documenting his conclusions against the dogma. Then they screamed "Fire" and all ran to Gould for help. Gould then postulated "punctuated equilibrium" (wow, very scholarly and intelligent term to "believes" in) which meant due to the embarrassing absence of intermediates the world was looking for, he asserted that evolution must have occurred quickly somewhere minimizing the need to find any fossils to support evo., wow, that was close, issue fixed - "next"..lets have a go a whales.."next"..
So here are your links -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/courses/bio141/lecg...
Notice in the wiki link that the number #1, not #2, but #1 structure in the table is a flagella. Also listed is the 3.6 BY. age.
So they find evidence a one of the most durable life forms on earth on metamorphic rock dated by isotope means, not any other uniform method like HE, PO 214, diamond carbon and so on. Then they pick the vary oldest of the 4 major isotope methods that have been proven over and over to conflict by up to 50% and "date" the Prokaryote. Talk about cherry picking. All we heard about in school was the isotopes. Throw your bible away over them, what a joke.
Better get someone from talkorigins on the line to wiki ASAP and tell them to fix that before someone thinks about it..
And once again we have a diagram of a "typical" prokaryote with a flagellum but no claim that the ealriest prokaryotes had them.

But no doubt you will repeat your lie every few weeks.

And btw what Gould called PE was clearly discussed by Darwin in the Origin of the Species, a book I would bet money on that you have never read.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106227 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
But what if God did it
Please provide objective scientific evidence of such an entity which passes the scientific method. So far no one on the planet is aware that such evidence even exists.

Remember folks! All science is wrong cuz GODDIDIT! You heard it here first!

Okay, so we DIDN'T hear it here first.
SBT wrote:
"And God was pleased with what he saw. 22 He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number".
We know the above is true in the present, but mock the statement that no one witnessed from the past? Evo's are everywhere at once.
Fish understand Hebrew? Wow.

Look out everyone, SBT is using the mighty "How do you know where you there!" argument! We're doomed fer sure!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106228 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
All we heard about in school was the isotopes. Throw your bible away over them, what a joke.
Yeah, I mean how can isotopes compare with magically poofed talking lizards and donkeys?

I'm amazed you know what a school is.(shrug)
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106229 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I just searched the web and noticed every time a Prokaryote was mentioned in the lit. a Flagella was associated. Then I looked up wiki and there it was, flagella and all.
Gee, and we've pointed out Yersinia pestis to you for months now.(shrug)

By the way, the theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.

That's been pointed out for YEARS.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#106230 Nov 19, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
And once again we have a diagram of a "typical" prokaryote with a flagellum but no claim that the ealriest prokaryotes had them.
But no doubt you will repeat your lie every few weeks.
And btw what Gould called PE was clearly discussed by Darwin in the Origin of the Species, a book I would bet money on that you have never read.
Not to mention that Gould supported his claims for PE via actual data collected in the field. There is *still* a debate about how much of evolution is gradual and how much is 'rapid'. From Gould's work, it is clear that evolution *can* happen very quickly, especially in small populations. From other work, it is also clear that evolution *can* happen gradually and in larger populations. I see it more as a random walk under environmental pressure. Sometimes such walks can move quite rapidly and at other times rather slowly.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106231 Nov 19, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
And once again we have a diagram of a "typical" prokaryote with a flagellum but no claim that the ealriest prokaryotes had them.
But no doubt you will repeat your lie every few weeks.
Oh, every other day, minimum.

I'm thinking of praying to God to magically poof us some new fundies.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#106232 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
But what if God did it so knowing someday He would need to trip up evo with that sequence. Back to the phylogenetic tree now, who was there to see all this?
"And God was pleased with what he saw. 22 He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number".
We know the above is true in the present, but mock the statement that no one witnessed from the past? Evo's are everywhere at once.
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).

And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106233 Nov 19, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
We can see when different creatures evolved in the fossil record.
And what is nice about the fossil record is that anyone can check it out for himself. That is one thing that creatards will not do. They know too well that they will lose in doing so.
SBT, why don't you try to learn how evolution works from a reliable source? It can't hurt to try to learn what the other side really says. It should be obvious to even you that your sources give a very distorted view of evolution.
I dont see evolution in the fossil record. The fossil record shows one thing truly; in each specific deposit world-wide, huge and varied groups of unrelated animals, aquatic and land, were drowned together in sediments. That is what we actually see and hold in our hands with no exception.

Evo paleontologists pick one bone from here, one from there and line them up in evolutionary fashion holding out evo as the only "scientific" interpretation. Never mention the above. Findings are sorted with a viewpoint in mind and leave out the broader truth. Thats what makes it into the kids science texts.

Take the Karoo, we have vertical fossil exposures thousands of feet thick, do we see evo as we move from bottom to top - No. We go to the Grand Canyon, working up the grand staircase, we see huge evo sections (Ordovician, Silurian), missing. Do we see evolution - no. Do we see sea floor life at the bottom of the GS yes in order of mobility, NOT evolutionary common ancestry sequence. One viewpoint vs another. One says many kinds buried catastrophically, another says each layer represents an eon of evolved life. The creation viewpoint is supported with eyewitnesses. Evo requires important things to be provable. Creation requires reasonable evidence also.

We have DNA and the cell operation squarely on our side. How did the complex and stasis in DNA coding come in the very beginning? We see this from Prokaryote fwd as it has never changed nor evolved. With that outside system controlling all life and the worlds oldest book saying what it says as a witness, is this not reasonable? How can man invalidate this position? How can we standback and allow children not to know these truths?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106234 Nov 19, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).
And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?
Isn't it obvious?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106235 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
I dont see evolution in the fossil record.
This is irrelevant, since you're not even looking at the fossil record in the first place.
SBT wrote:
The fossil record shows one thing truly; in each specific deposit world-wide, huge and varied groups of unrelated animals, aquatic and land, were drowned together in sediments.
And you determined cause of death by looking in the Bible and ignoring evidence? Why aren't modern male leatherback turtles at the bottom of the column? Why aren't velociraptors, who were faster than humans, and trees, at the top? How come your "floating-sorting theory" doesn't account for aquatic basins? How does flood physics prevent everything from quite literally, frying to death and leaving the Earth a charred ball?
SBT wrote:
We have DNA and the cell operation squarely on our side.
How does it demonstrate magic Jewish wizardry?
SBT wrote:
How did the complex and stasis in DNA coding come in the very beginning?
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.

Did I mention that already?
SBT wrote:
We see this from Prokaryote fwd as it has never changed nor evolved.
Bubonic plague.
SBT wrote:
With that outside system controlling all life and the worlds oldest book saying what it says as a witness, is this not reasonable? How can man invalidate this position? How can we standback and allow children not to know these truths?
Quite simply because this outside system cannot be demonstrated in an objective manner via the scientific method. When do you plan on getting around to this?

You've had THOUSANDS of years.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#106236 Nov 19, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, every other day, minimum.
I'm thinking of praying to God to magically poof us some new fundies.
God does not "poof up" fundies,
Fundies "poof up" God.

You stand corrected.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106237 Nov 19, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).
And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?
The created world, life and universe is the proof. If we are taught Godless evo in our formative years and told over and over all is from naturalistic means, that's what we will believe, right? In my last post I covered this ground. As the telescopes and microscopes get bigger, naturalism fails us. Proton powered micro motor's with a clutch, speed control and reverse, a cavitation torque sensor in each "stator" (researcher definition, not mine) and control mechanism don't come about by chance in the reality we live in.
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/a-questio...

An outside super-intelligence has a hand in it. So then your question's about the Bible. 99.9% is written by man (exception is the 10 commandments for example), a very, very tiny faction has error's. If it was all aligned perfectly someone would scream tampering, right? On the other hand when pressed hard it holds up very, very well, no one doubts that. Christ quotes it over and over. So the big challenge I had, is it true? People get into this or that miracle and put it down but have you had miracles in your life? I have. A few happened i just took for granted in my youthful bliss! Later I thought of those. We all have our foxhole experiences, one time I asked for help, was in a real jam and was about to kill people and me. I got an answer i will tell you. Later read the bible and after another near miss I believed and was changed. Started going back on the evo stuff and got satisfaction that the bible had it right. Some interesting stuff about our planet and solar systems -

http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/genesis-a...

My girls had horses, like a good dad i helped out. One time I was working a stall talking with someone. That horse in there with me started jawing silent words the best he could to join in, we were rolling and he was so frustrated.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#106238 Nov 19, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).
And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?
Yeah. What he said.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#106239 Nov 19, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
But what if God ...
You are "what iffing" about something (god) that is itself nothing more than a "what if".

When you can present actual verifiable evidence that your 'god' does in fact exist, your "what ifs" would at least have some modicum of credibility... and that whole "you just need faith" thing would become unnecessary.

Good luck with that

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106240 Nov 19, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
This is irrelevant, since you're not even looking at the fossil record in the first place.
<quoted text>
And you determined cause of death by looking in the Bible and ignoring evidence? Why aren't modern male leatherback turtles at the bottom of the column? Why aren't velociraptors, who were faster than humans, and trees, at the top? How come your "floating-sorting theory" doesn't account for aquatic basins? How does flood physics prevent everything from quite literally, frying to death and leaving the Earth a charred ball?
<quoted text>
How does it demonstrate magic Jewish wizardry?
<quoted text>
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.
Did I mention that already?
<quoted text>
Bubonic plague.
<quoted text>
Quite simply because this outside system cannot be demonstrated in an objective manner via the scientific method. When do you plan on getting around to this?
You've had THOUSANDS of years.
Many of the basis were above sea level, this is not a local catastrophe. Put about 30 years more geology under your belt.

Turtles dive to shallow water and can surface, they are found fossilized on-shore and in-shore, they would no be thousands of feet deep as the first to get covered. Fact as floaters they can be last.

Reptile's drown and immediately sink, doubt the big guys were good swimmers. The Morrison is a turbitity that covers thousands of square miles here and is full of them, mixed with clams and shells in a high-speed underwater mud flow. Recently found buried in soft body and still smelly, you will recall.

Oh and your theory does too rely on where the code and cell operation came from, nice try. My point is, the DNA code and cell mechanism has never been seen to evolve, it remains an untouched outside system controlling all life for your 3.6 bill years. why hasn't it changed if mindless evolution is so creative in all that time? This is a mechanism that utterly falsifies Darwinian evolution.



The earth fried? I have no idea what you have been reading. We are here, our ancestors made it through the judgement, Dr. Brown here is really onto something -

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#106241 Nov 19, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Můr, put me in mind of the Welsh for carrot, a word I have often used to refer to chuckles. Itís perhaps the only word I know in welsh.
Itís not so bad now but up to a few years ago there was a problem when driving in Wales. The road signs are written in both English and Welsh. Welsh language activists would go around and spray paint the English directions out resulting in lots of lost tourists.
Talking about road signs, I think you may like this one http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/21/art...
Reminds me of "This page left intentionally blank."

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