Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#106157 Nov 17, 2013
K.'s representation goes entirely on his conto.

Link provided:
Near the Precambrian/Cambrian transition, only 580 Mya, in the Ediacaran and Burgess shale faunas we finally find the first fossils of multicellular animals. However, they are very unusual, mostly small, soft-bodied metazoans, and most are superficially unlike anything found today. Precisely as we would expect from the standard phylogenetic tree, the earliest fossils of multi-cellular life are very simple sponges and sea anemone-like organisms (sea anemones and jellyfish are both cnidarians). Around 20 million years later, we find the first evidence of simple mollusks, worms, and echinoderms (organisms similar to starfish and sea cucumbers). Another ~15 million years later, the very first vertebrates appear, though most people would strain to recognize them as such. They are small worm-like and primitive fish-like organisms, without bones, jaws, or fins (excepting a single dorsal fin).

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/secti ...

Note:
However, they are very unusual, mostly small, soft-bodied metazoans, and most are SUPERFICIALLY unlike anything found today. PRECISELY AS WE WOULD EXPECT FROM THE STANDARD PHYLOGENIC TREE,

SO TO FIND THE THEORY LOOK AT THE THEORY OF THE STANDARD PHYLOGENIC TREE.
SZ points out that your interpretation is wrong and that we van push the dates even further back to precambrian development. As in the Cambrian a bottleneck, with later adaptation into a great variety.(The socalled Cambrain explosion, which never meant creatio ex nihilio)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/06/...
Ernst Mayr Evolutionary Synsthesis 1942.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106158 Nov 17, 2013
lest we get confused:

So roughly we are down to 750mya and still no evidence of multicellular life. The first fossils resulting in multicellular life are only 580mya and I say only for it is a short time for the 4 billion years that had already passed. So we go through roughly 4 billion years with no multicellular life and then in only 550 million years it just all of a sudden ran amuck, exploded and went boom! Producing millions of species. Isnt that the theory?

V. S.Z.:
Wrong, the first FOSSILS with a hard shell appeared 580 million years ago. BODY IMPRESSIONS, though understandably quite rare, go back much further than the Cambrian. The oldest is over 2 billion years old:
-----
In short:
Multicellular live started earlier.
As did oxygenation.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106159 Nov 17, 2013
MAAT wrote:
K.'s representation goes entirely on his conto.
Link provided:
Near the Precambrian/Cambrian transition, only 580 Mya, in the Ediacaran and Burgess shale faunas we finally find the first fossils of multicellular animals. However, they are very unusual, mostly small, soft-bodied metazoans, and most are superficially unlike anything found today. Precisely as we would expect from the standard phylogenetic tree, the earliest fossils of multi-cellular life are very simple sponges and sea anemone-like organisms (sea anemones and jellyfish are both cnidarians). Around 20 million years later, we find the first evidence of simple mollusks, worms, and echinoderms (organisms similar to starfish and sea cucumbers). Another ~15 million years later, the very first vertebrates appear, though most people would strain to recognize them as such. They are small worm-like and primitive fish-like organisms, without bones, jaws, or fins (excepting a single dorsal fin).
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/secti ...
Note:
However, they are very unusual, mostly small, soft-bodied metazoans, and most are SUPERFICIALLY unlike anything found today. PRECISELY AS WE WOULD EXPECT FROM THE STANDARD PHYLOGENIC TREE,
SO TO FIND THE THEORY LOOK AT THE THEORY OF THE STANDARD PHYLOGENIC TREE.
SZ points out that your interpretation is wrong and that we van push the dates even further back to precambrian development. As in the Cambrian a bottleneck, with later adaptation into a great variety.(The socalled Cambrain explosion, which never meant creatio ex nihilio)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/06/...
Ernst Mayr Evolutionary Synsthesis 1942.
Its amazing to me how many "experts" we have here who have never held a rock hammer nor taken a day of Geology. A little hint, when you get into the field uniform Geology and evolution is inconsistent at best and makes for a very poor guide to anything but some strata identification.

For example, people have been mining tube fossils and trilobytes out of the Grapevine in the Grand Canyon for years, I have held these in my hands. This is rock bottom Cambrian strata. The rest you post is better understood from a catastrophic viewpoint and thus; the world was made out of water and with water, had a period of stasis then was utterly destroyed by tectonic and water activity in a single world-wide event. As one that has spent more than 30 years working above or underground on most of the worlds continents, this is a very reasonable deduction shared by many, many professionals.

Your Prokaryotes;
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/a-questio...

Catastrophic Geology;
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/10/the-grand...
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/the-grand...
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/the-last-...

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106160 Nov 17, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
The ability to develop a hard shell is attributed to the calcification of dead organisms, when so many had created a supply of this life started recycling the waste products of itself and incorporated the calcium to build the hard parts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalocaris
huge fossil predator allready dating from the early cambrian.(as in allready part shells from calcium carbonate)

Oxygenation allready occurred 2 billion years ago.
If Iron absorbtion was satiation was allready concluded, we would have a restvolume to make multicellular development possible.
Global cooling throwing a bit of a spanner in the works.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106161 Nov 17, 2013
Or maybe being conducive?

“Evolution is Variation”

Since: Nov 13

Dublin, Ireland

#106162 Nov 17, 2013
MAAT wrote:
lest we get confused:
So roughly we are down to 750mya and still no evidence of multicellular life. The first fossils resulting in multicellular life are only 580mya and I say only for it is a short time for the 4 billion years that had already passed. So we go through roughly 4 billion years with no multicellular life and then in only 550 million years it just all of a sudden ran amuck, exploded and went boom! Producing millions of species. Isnt that the theory?
V. S.Z.:
Wrong, the first FOSSILS with a hard shell appeared 580 million years ago. BODY IMPRESSIONS, though understandably quite rare, go back much further than the Cambrian. The oldest is over 2 billion years old:
-----
In short:
Multicellular live started earlier.
As did oxygenation.
Depending on what you go by, the dates can vary a little or a lot.

Complex, Multicellular Life from Over Two Billion Years Ago Discovered.
The discovery in Gabon of more than 250 fossils in an excellent state of conservation has provided proof, for the first time, of the existence of multicellular organisms 2.1 billion years ago. This finding represents a major breakthrough: until now, the first complex life forms (made up of several cells) dated from around 600 million years ago.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/...

Geologist Analyzes Earliest Shell-Covered Fossil Animals.

The fossil remains of some of the first animals with shells, ocean-dwelling creatures that measure a few centimeters in length and date to about 520 million years ago, provide a window on evolution at this time, according to scientists. Their research indicates that these animals were larger than previously thought.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#106163 Nov 17, 2013
Thats a knee slapper wrote:
<quoted text>
Depending on what you go by, the dates can vary a little or a lot.
Complex, Multicellular Life from Over Two Billion Years Ago Discovered.
The discovery in Gabon of more than 250 fossils in an excellent state of conservation has provided proof, for the first time, of the existence of multicellular organisms 2.1 billion years ago. This finding represents a major breakthrough: until now, the first complex life forms (made up of several cells) dated from around 600 million years ago.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/...
Geologist Analyzes Earliest Shell-Covered Fossil Animals.
The fossil remains of some of the first animals with shells, ocean-dwelling creatures that measure a few centimeters in length and date to about 520 million years ago, provide a window on evolution at this time, according to scientists. Their research indicates that these animals were larger than previously thought.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/...
It is always possible to push the date of earliest further and further back. Nice find by the way.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#106164 Nov 17, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalocaris
huge fossil predator allready dating from the early cambrian.(as in allready part shells from calcium carbonate)
Oxygenation allready occurred 2 billion years ago.
If Iron absorbtion was satiation was allready concluded, we would have a restvolume to make multicellular development possible.
Global cooling throwing a bit of a spanner in the works.
Algae and other dieing microorganisms supplied the calcium carbonate in the start.

http://www.whoi.edu/home/oceanus_images/ries/...

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106165 Nov 17, 2013
Thanks for the link Aura Mytha.

TAKS had a good source also on
Lots of Oxygen Does Not Necessarily Lead to the Evolution of Advanced Life
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/...

and

Great Oxidation Event: More Oxygen Through Multicellularity
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/...
Jan. 17, 2013 The appearance of free oxygen in Earth's atmosphere led to the Great Oxidation Event. This was triggered by cyanobacteria producing oxygen that was used by multicellular forms as early as 2.3 billion years ago. As evolutionary biologists from the Universities of Zurich and Gothenburg have shown, this multicellularity was linked to the rise in oxygen and thus played a significant role for life on Earth as it is today.

Cyanobacteria occupied free niches

The increased production of oxygen set Earth's original atmosphere off balance. Because oxygen was poisonous for large numbers of anaerobic organisms, many anaerobic types of bacteria were eliminated, opening up ecological 'niches'. The researchers have determined the existence of many new types of multicellular cyanobacteria subsequent to the fundamental climatic event, and are deducing that these occupied the newly developed habitats. "Morphological changes in microorganisms such as bacteria were able to impact the environment fundamentally and to an extent scarcely imaginable," concludes Schirrmeister.
---
So it would be about oxygen supporting life and reproduction.
Or supporting the first landbased life.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#106166 Nov 17, 2013
MAAT wrote:
Thanks for the link Aura Mytha.
TAKS had a good source also on
Lots of Oxygen Does Not Necessarily Lead to the Evolution of Advanced Life
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/...
and
Great Oxidation Event: More Oxygen Through Multicellularity
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/...
Jan. 17, 2013 The appearance of free oxygen in Earth's atmosphere led to the Great Oxidation Event. This was triggered by cyanobacteria producing oxygen that was used by multicellular forms as early as 2.3 billion years ago. As evolutionary biologists from the Universities of Zurich and Gothenburg have shown, this multicellularity was linked to the rise in oxygen and thus played a significant role for life on Earth as it is today.
Cyanobacteria occupied free niches
The increased production of oxygen set Earth's original atmosphere off balance. Because oxygen was poisonous for large numbers of anaerobic organisms, many anaerobic types of bacteria were eliminated, opening up ecological 'niches'. The researchers have determined the existence of many new types of multicellular cyanobacteria subsequent to the fundamental climatic event, and are deducing that these occupied the newly developed habitats. "Morphological changes in microorganisms such as bacteria were able to impact the environment fundamentally and to an extent scarcely imaginable," concludes Schirrmeister.
---
So it would be about oxygen supporting life and reproduction.
Or supporting the first landbased life.
Yes some life sacrificed itself to develop the life as we know it, at least it appears this way. But recently there is growing evidence that not all Precambrian life actually died, some of it may have evolved.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#106167 Nov 17, 2013
Proterozoic Mountains and Glaciers
In the Proterozoic Eon, four major mountain-building episodes occurred, each of which was followed by an interval of continental erosion. Mountain-building was caused by converging plates, just as occurs in present-day plate tectonics. It was accompanied by intrusions of molten granite that welded an additional belt of younger, igneous rock around the edges of the original microcontinents. In North America, the Proterozoic episodes of mountain-building greatly expanded the size of the continent.

Widespread continental glaciations evidently occurred at least twice in the Proterozoic, once near its beginning and again near its end. Several of these glaciations extended almost to the equator, much farther south than any recent cooling events. This unusual situation has led a few geologists to propose that the Earth was almost entirely covered by glaciers for perhaps several million years during the Proterozoic. During this Snowball Earth phase, life would have been relegated to hydrothermal vents and other such refuges until the build-up of carbon dioxide released from volcanoes warmed Earth from its deep-freeze. The final Marinoan Ice Age marked the transition to the Cambrian, the first period of the Paleozoic Era.

Given the amount of erosion thus and new ignious rock.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106168 Nov 17, 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_carbon_c...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3...
Manganese-oxidizing photosynthesis before the rise of cyanobacteria

Jena E. Johnson,a,1 Samuel M. Webb,b Katherine Thomas,c Shuhei Ono,c Joseph L. Kirschvink,a,d and Woodward W. Fischera

http://www.pnas.org/content/97/4/1400.full.pd...
Paleoproterozoic snowball Earth: Extreme climatic
and geochemical global change and its
biological consequences
Joseph L. Kirschvink*, Eric J. Gaidos, L. Elizabeth Bertani, Nicholas J. Beukes, Jens Gutzmer, Linda N. Maepa*,
and Rachel E. Steinberger
*Division of Geological and Planetary Sciences,Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and Division of Biology, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA 91125;
and Department of Geology, Rand Afrikaans University, Auckland Park 2006, Johannesburg, South Africa
Communicated by Paul F. Hoffman, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA, November 8, 1999 (received for review September 8, 1999)

Kirschvink (14) noted that the extreme geochemical environments predicted by a snowball Earth model explain the Neoproterozoic banded iron formations (BIFs). Hoffman et al.(10)
extended the model to account for the deposition and isotopic composition of postglacial cap carbonates. Tsikos and Moore (15) suggested that the glacial deposits and the unique manganese
(Mn) deposits of the Paleoproterozoic Hotazel formation in South Africa may be causally related, but without providing a mechanism. We suggest that a global glaciation followed by a
cyanobacterial bloom provides a simple explanation of the manganese formations and furthermore describes an extraordinary event in the geochemical history of the planet, one with
potentially profound implications for the evolution of life.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#106169 Nov 17, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
However Creation does predict a limit to adaptation and that is exactly what the data confirms with none presented to support an organisms ability to adapt without such limits.

This is false. Obviously you have never studied science.
davy

Albuquerque, NM

#106170 Nov 17, 2013
Where does it say that in the bible religitard?
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
However Creation does predict a limit to adaptation and that is exactly what the data confirms with none presented to support an organisms ability to adapt without such limits.
davy

Albuquerque, NM

#106171 Nov 17, 2013
Fine, so show us a mathematical equation that supports a talking snake. Einstein never said we were created by aliens you religitarded republicunt. I see you are still telling lies in the name of Jesus.
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is another evo quacker out for his jollies for the day. Go get a life if you're too silly to participte!
Have you ever heard of this....
Einstein's equation, Energy = Mass x the square of the velocity of light, tells you that a huge amount of energy will create matter in this way.
This is how these aliens your researchers keep looking for but refuse to see are able to create and take on form.
Given that energy is neither created nor destroyed you can feel free to explain where the initial energy came from. Until then, you can believe in your ghosts that hold the universe together and the multiple dimensions required.
We can play this game of you silly evos demanding more substantiation than you can ever present for any of your claims. However, you need to understand you still remain a confirmed looser.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106172 Nov 18, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Its amazing to me how many "experts" we have here who have never held a rock hammer nor taken a day of Geology. A little hint, when you get into the field uniform Geology and evolution is inconsistent at best and makes for a very poor guide to anything but some strata identification.
So what you're saying is that evolution and geology don't work but evolution and geology really do work.

Gotcha.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106173 Nov 18, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
However Creation does predict a limit to adaptation and that is exactly what the data confirms with none presented to support an organisms ability to adapt without such limits.
Only if you were able to ascertain the limits of the all-powerful universe-creating creator in an objective manner via the scientific method.

How DID you do that again exactly?

Thought so.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#106174 Nov 18, 2013
Thats a knee slapper wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh I know. I have been dealing with his sunken sub on a few other threads.
Here are some of his best so far;
1. He says type of dog instead of breed.
2. He says laws of entropy instead of laws of thermodynamics, which entropy falls under.
3. He said E. coli is not a species. When E. coli is the species name. He even provided the link then still denied it.
4. He says E. coli comes in different nationalities,, as in American E. coli and Mexican E. coli
Hey Slaphead, you use creationist arguments against evolution then say you're not a creationist. One thing is for sure though, if you ain't a creo you're still a stupid liar.(shrug)

Come up with your "scientific alternative" yet? Thought not.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#106175 Nov 18, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Irish Gaelic. I grew up on one of the peninsulae in South-Western Ireland.
The language is still used for daily commerce down there.
Cheers. Must admit, I cant understand a word of it, having said that Im only a few miles from Wales and have the same problem there. And even closer to Liverpool and true scouse leaves me shaking my head.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#106176 Nov 18, 2013
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> And that does not change the reality about England' s origination of the English language.
Moving goalposts does not become you.

You originally claimed the English owned the English language, it seems you may actually be capable of learning after all.

However the origination of the English language is rather more diverse than England. Many words coming from various languages, mostly across northern Europe but also including languages from as far afield as India and China

I have shown you this several times including links to academic documentation which validate the point and you still seem to ignore those facts.

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