Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105996 Nov 16, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
One of the evo's own, Ayala, tried to warn them 40 years ago about "genetic load" timelines, that this would catch up to them. The US science institutions swept it under the carpet hoping for controverting evidence to save them. All they got was this mouse under the carpet and the MO-1 from the Japanese. Guess they don't "Expel" researchers over there. Their new secret weapon; "SHHHHH", keep quiet and add an evo stmt in peer review, quick..
http://creation.com/germ-7-motors-in-1
Nonsense, even if one is just interested in proper reading skills, one would climb in the ropes.
Even more complicated by some strict scientific language.
Normally people have a university education and their own papers peer-reviewed before they wantonly (if ever)amass them to proof or support a point.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105997 Nov 16, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
So is this your way of telling us you can't explain the Foraman Ovale either?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foramen_ovale_%2...
Expanded;
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/a-questio...
wiki explains it perfectly.
Keep reading any click on any term that is blue and that you do not understand.

Think of why we have seperated fingers.
It's not the foramen ovale being but the absense that created it.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105998 Nov 16, 2013
MZ paraphrased: Nature and the lab only show changes at inner-species level.

Maat: Face it your closest relative in the tree is a homonin and then homonids and then apes etc.

So we end up with the only relevant article, which also got a wrong interpretation.

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/T9Q...

"In PNAS, the team reports cloning the human and chimpanzee hydroxylase cDNAs, and identifying a mutation in the coding region of the human cDNA that regulates hydroxylase activity. The same gene in apes codes for a hydroxylase enzyme which adds this atom to the sialic acid molecule, but due to a mutation at some point in human evolution, the human gene lacks this coding section, accounting for the structural difference in the molecule."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/ ...

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105999 Nov 16, 2013
No Peak in Sight for Evolving Bacteria
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/...

Nov. 14, 2013
Still going strong, fittness peak not yet reached, Lenski's bacteria show adaptation to the stressing environment.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106000 Nov 16, 2013
http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/plants_anima...
Deletion of any single gene provokes mutation elsewhere in the system.

More on the differences chimpz and humans
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/...
See also further articles on Bonobos etc.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#106001 Nov 16, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmm? MazHere has been discussing the fact that there are limits to the change in a genome , that research has shown it does have limits, which you argue against. And what was your argument? she doesn't understand the deep time scales needed to understand evolution. Your words,....this is the God of the evolutionist ...Time, research shows there are limits!, No! just give it time, time can change a dinosaur into a bird, time can change an ape into a man, or even a puddle of goo into life, all you need is time.
Accepting and denying research according to the Bible is tantamount to sticking your nose where the sun doesn't shine.
For what is sure to be the thousandth time, Homo Sapiens ARE apes, not WERE apes, and no one can or has stated as a certainty precisely where life came from - except your lot, who takes mythology as real and pounces to condemn thoughtful pondering as scientific statements and declarations.
Bear false witness, much? Yep - you surely do.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#106002 Nov 16, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
Accepting and denying research according to the Bible is tantamount to sticking your nose where the sun doesn't shine.
For what is sure to be the thousandth time, Homo Sapiens ARE apes, not WERE apes, and no one can or has stated as a certainty precisely where life came from - except your lot, who takes mythology as real and pounces to condemn thoughtful pondering as scientific statements and declarations.
Bear false witness, much? Yep - you surely do.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1...
Genome Res. 2007 September; 17(9): 12661277.

doi: 10.1101/gr.6557307

PMCID: PMC1950895

Gene copy number variation spanning 60 million years of human and primate evolution
Laura Dumas,1 Young H. Kim,2 Anis Karimpour-Fard,3 Michael Cox,1,4,5 Janet Hopkins,1,4,5 Jonathan R. Pollack,2 and James M. Sikela1,4,5,6

Plus various other interesting papers on apes.
http://genome.cshlp.org/
See the butterfly and evolution.
Recent contribution. 13-14 nov 2013. Also found on sciencedaily.com

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106003 Nov 16, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
wiki explains it perfectly.
Keep reading any click on any term that is blue and that you do not understand.
Think of why we have seperated fingers.
It's not the foramen ovale being but the absense that created it.
I wish someone would send some evolution in a bottle over to my engineering dept so I could take a break. I suppose the bottle would just have the initials T.G. on it for TIME GOD. Kindda like a Genie in a bottle. They wouldn't even have to think over there, TG does all that for us. No planning meeting's either, I hate those and so do my people.

Hmmmm, I could make billions and we could all drive Jags and custom Porsche's with those pick-your-color leather interiors and all and not do a thing. I'm getting to like this idea. I would be having lunch with Generals..

Save the chip mfg's like Intel down the street alot of money too. Last big processor project cost them over a billion..Making the chip that's in the new phone in your hand...pooff, it would be done, the Time God's knew it already! And we KNOW evo is better than anything Intel's got, just look @ MO-1 below.

The valve in the Foraman Ovale is a major part genetically. It must be coded. But that's the easy part, it's existence is useless without thousands of other parts all controlled and convergent to shut it one time in your life. Accidental? Not one chance. Requires a plan, absolutely. Intelligence, yes.

http://creation.com/germ-7-motors-in-1

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106004 Nov 16, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Can you now explain to me in your hypothesis why your god would design sophisticated micro-machine organisms that have the intent to do harm to living creatures? Bacterial flagella and bacterium MO-1 E. coli and Salmonella flagella have the intent to kill you. How do you reconcile this small detail in your creation hypothesis?
Hmmm?
Perhaps your designer is a machine that wishes to destroy the living?
I don't know all the reasons, I am not God. I do know e. coli is a digestive bac that is good, under control. We are living in a running down world, not the one God created originally that was "Very Good". Too understand God, we must understand that. I agree that if we look at the world today with all its health and hate problems, natural disasters etc.. It is difficult to see God in it now in some ways. But, the Bible teaches these things will come, that we are living on a timeline set by God and mentioned over and over in the Bible and by Christ.

Yes, one can say if God is so good, why doesn't He come down and fix it all. He tried - they killed Him. Pre-knowing this, God in His wisdom used that atrocity to show us real love, that is, forgivness after our hate. That amazing demonstrated forgiveness is what got me thinking. Long time ago, one of our top pilots took out the bosses favorite heli and wrecked it. He was OK, and brought back to base. He walked by Arlo once, not a glance, twice, same response, third time he couldn't stand it any longer.. "If your going to fire me, please do it now, I cant stand the silence!" Arlo looked up and said, "Son, I can't afford to fire you, I have $50,000 in vested in your education". We gathered around that grace and became a winning team.

"The immune system is amazingly complex. It can recognize and remember millions of different enemies, and it can produce secretions (release of fluids) and cells to match up with and wipe out nearly all of them.
The secret to its success is an elaborate and dynamic communications network. Millions and millions of cells, organized into sets and subsets, gather like clouds of bees swarming around a hive and pass information back and forth in response to an infection. Once immune cells receive the alarm, they become activated and begin to produce powerful chemicals. These substances allow the cells to regulate their own growth and behavior, enlist other immune cells, and direct the new recruits to trouble spots.

Although scientists have learned much about the immune system, they continue to study how the body launches attacks that destroy invading microbes, infected cells, and tumors while ignoring healthy tissues. New technologies for identifying individual immune cells are now allowing scientists to determine quickly which targets are triggering an immune response. Improvements in microscopy are permitting the first-ever observations of living B cells, T cells, and other cells as they interact within lymph nodes and other body tissues.

In addition, scientists are rapidly unraveling the genetic blueprints that direct the human immune response, as well as those that dictate the biology of bacteria, viruses, and parasites. The combination of new technology and expanded genetic information will no doubt reveal even more about how the body protects itself from disease".

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/immunesystem/...

http://creation.com/immune-system-antibody-di...

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#106005 Nov 16, 2013
MAAT wrote:
5025 Well this discussion had drifted far from creatard inbreeding/evolution. To proof that apes and humans had no common descent. Because the book says we have fish.
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
You can't read. Even researchers admit lab experiments and nature are not evidence of an organisms ability to endlessly adapt per se ie macroevolution. Will you please start being sensible at least?
No, unlimited adaptation is NOT seen in the fossil record. What is seen in the fossil record is punctuated equilibrium. IOW, very different organisms assumed to be ancestral because they breathe.
No, unlimited adaptation is NOT seen in genomics, What is found is that apes and mankind have different molecular machinery despite a hand full of dyed enzymes being able to be hammered into a sequence bootstrapped to the human genome.
The other thing you forgot, oh smart one, is that an old scroll written thousands of years before TOE was even thought of, got the fossil record right before evoclowns had to steal it and glorify themselves with their great work. For example, with all your bluster about organic soups and rubbish, you lot ended up agreeing with that old scroll account of life starting in the sea. Amazing isn't it!. LOL!.
Thanks for requoting me and demonstrating you are an idiot.

....and yet after majority deleterious mutations and negative epistasis in relation to 'beneficial' mutations and where the lucky ones against all odds makes a major sweep, an evo only has faith holding an organism back from extinction. No research. Well that's just great folks!

Blab on and soothe your ego. We creos understand! LOL!

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#106006 Nov 16, 2013
Oh my. SBT does not even understand his myth of choice.

SBT, you continue to link valid sites without understanding them and invalid sites, which are nonsensical. You do realize that everything creatard.com publishes is bullshit, don't you?

One more time, we don't need to know everything about the immune system to know it evolved. You are mixing two different subjects there. Now understanding the immune system helps us know how it evolved, but it is not an absolute necessity.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#106007 Nov 16, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know all the reasons, I am not God. I do know e. coli is a digestive bac that is good, under control. We are living in a running down world, not the one God created originally that was "Very Good". Too understand God, we must understand that. I agree that if we look at the world today with all its health and hate problems, natural disasters etc.. It is difficult to see God in it now in some ways. But, the Bible teaches these things will come, that we are living on a timeline set by God and mentioned over and over in the Bible and by Christ.
Yes, one can say if God is so good, why doesn't He come down and fix it all. He tried - they killed Him. Pre-knowing this, God in His wisdom used that atrocity to show us real love, that is, forgivness after our hate. That amazing demonstrated forgiveness is what got me thinking. Long time ago, one of our top pilots took out the bosses favorite heli and wrecked it. He was OK, and brought back to base. He walked by Arlo once, not a glance, twice, same response, third time he couldn't stand it any longer.. "If your going to fire me, please do it now, I cant stand the silence!" Arlo looked up and said, "Son, I can't afford to fire you, I have $50,000 in vested in your education". We gathered around that grace and became a winning team.
"The immune system is amazingly complex. It can recognize and remember millions of different enemies, and it can produce secretions (release of fluids) and cells to match up with and wipe out nearly all of them.
The secret to its success is an elaborate and dynamic communications network. Millions and millions of cells, organized into sets and subsets, gather like clouds of bees swarming around a hive and pass information back and forth in response to an infection. Once immune cells receive the alarm, they become activated and begin to produce powerful chemicals. These substances allow the cells to regulate their own growth and behavior, enlist other immune cells, and direct the new recruits to trouble spots.
Although scientists have learned much about the immune system, they continue to study how the body launches attacks that destroy invading microbes, infected cells, and tumors while ignoring healthy tissues. New technologies for identifying individual immune cells are now allowing scientists to determine quickly which targets are triggering an immune response. Improvements in microscopy are permitting the first-ever observations of living B cells, T cells, and other cells as they interact within lymph nodes and other body tissues.
In addition, scientists are rapidly unraveling the genetic blueprints that direct the human immune response, as well as those that dictate the biology of bacteria, viruses, and parasites. The combination of new technology and expanded genetic information will no doubt reveal even more about how the body protects itself from disease".
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/immunesystem/...
http://creation.com/immune-system-antibody-di...
Isn't it great that evos can't explain anything with certainty and yet demand a higher level of substatiation from a creationist that an evolutionist can't present themselves.

Immunity is yet another irreducibly complex system that must have created itself in expectation of an organism becoming infected by another organism yet to evolve, according to evos. Mmmm!

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#106008 Nov 16, 2013

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#106009 Nov 16, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
For one the Bible. I read it through before I started really considering the reality of God acting in human events. I knew something unexplainable had acted in my behalf a number of times also. I was perplexed how people of faith, especially couples and their children, were stable and happy Vs others I knew (including my family), and I didn't want to fail in marriage and couldn't figure out the formula to make it work. So after another crash I walked away from (I working in heli aviation in Alaska) I felt this strong force telling me to decide now, so on the trip out I prayed and something very unique happened, they call it "born again", pretty good description I will say. Found out later alot of folks were praying for me that week,(they told me later). So there was reason and logic involved in part but in the end there was a greater force involved I didn't understand then. That's when my eyes were opened and I had real peace. So I then questioned how I had got so deep in my faith in evolution, went back mentally and let the two fly at each other. Creation won handily on the facts.
Your personal belief, no matter how sincere is not a basis to refute science.

Discovering that high risk occupations can lead to death faster than posting on Topix is also not a basis to preclude the entire body of scientific research, evidence and insight.

It is understandable that your personal experiences and education have lead you to look for answers, but you are using your gut and not your intellect to draw conclusions.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#106010 Nov 16, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, I get your point. I used to trap and skin animals, I trapped the entire weasel series. With the skin off there was almost no difference except size, weasel to wolverine. Skin on and habitually - major differences. God made them. Jump out of the weasel series to bears. Big split, no scent glands for one, nothing in between. Skin off, little difference in general, just much much larger. So we have commonality in the maker, not evolution. Where and when did evolution start or stop? This concept must be going on today and observable in nature but it is not. We have gaps everywhere and utter opposition in the DNA and cell mechanisms. They watched ecoli for 20 years and 40,000 generations and in the end, got the same e.coli. Same with fruit flys. If evo worked it should have shown up in either study but it didn't. Now that we have bigger microscopes we know why, cell design and operation clearly controverts the theory. So if we can't observe it in scientific study, don't see it happening in the field and cell operation and complexity stand against it, the only answer left is some level of ID, just like Crick asserted once he completed his work 50 years ago. So now we take that framework to the fossil beds to the chip-human issue, that is only reasonable.
I posted this question to D.Collin Patterson 20 years ago before he passed away, one of the worlds greatest Zoologists. This is a guy that spent his entire life dedicated to the study of bone structure and anatomy. His head was a catalog of parts, encyclopedic. He said of my observations above; "my colleges from the tropic's tell me the same thing". When you read his stuff he was questioning the whole matter in his last years.
This goes for the primate series. You have a constellation of unique tree climbers and a small group of upright walkers; one with with a U-jaw and walking anatomy, and the other with curved appendages and a V jaw. Watch their behavior with the skin on and you have a big gap is my point. An assembly relating to this summary -
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/the-quest...
I think this is the best new video series out, one short clip, with Dean Kenyon's journey I think is pretty good -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =gdBJt6sdDfIXX
Evolution is observable in nature and it is telling that you make such a comment that it isn't. It shows that you only post on here to preach your message and not learn. For if learning were part of this, you would have seen the many examples and explanations about observable evolution that have been posted on here.

We discussed Dr. Patterson in the past and whether you actually talked to the man or not, there is no evidence to support that his support of evolution ever wavered. In fact, the evidence shows that he accepted and supported the evidence of evolution to the end.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#106011 Nov 16, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I wish someone would send some evolution in a bottle over to my engineering dept so I could take a break. I suppose the bottle would just have the initials T.G. on it for TIME GOD. Kindda like a Genie in a bottle. They wouldn't even have to think over there, TG does all that for us. No planning meeting's either, I hate those and so do my people.
Hmmmm, I could make billions and we could all drive Jags and custom Porsche's with those pick-your-color leather interiors and all and not do a thing. I'm getting to like this idea. I would be having lunch with Generals..
Save the chip mfg's like Intel down the street alot of money too. Last big processor project cost them over a billion..Making the chip that's in the new phone in your hand...pooff, it would be done, the Time God's knew it already! And we KNOW evo is better than anything Intel's got, just look @ MO-1 below.
The valve in the Foraman Ovale is a major part genetically. It must be coded. But that's the easy part, it's existence is useless without thousands of other parts all controlled and convergent to shut it one time in your life. Accidental? Not one chance. Requires a plan, absolutely. Intelligence, yes.
http://creation.com/germ-7-motors-in-1
More straw man nonsense and appeal to incredulity. Nice try Agent Mulder.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#106012 Nov 16, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't it great that evos can't explain anything with certainty and yet demand a higher level of substatiation from a creationist that an evolutionist can't present themselves.
Immunity is yet another irreducibly complex system that must have created itself in expectation of an organism becoming infected by another organism yet to evolve, according to evos. Mmmm!
Sorry Maz. You lose again. Appealing to magic and straw men to refute science isn't going to support untenable claims of irreducible complexity.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#106013 Nov 16, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Your personal belief, no matter how sincere is not a basis to refute science.
Discovering that high risk occupations can lead to death faster than posting on Topix is also not a basis to preclude the entire body of scientific research, evidence and insight.
It is understandable that your personal experiences and education have lead you to look for answers, but you are using your gut and not your intellect to draw conclusions.
Creationists are certainly waiting to see some of this empirical scientific research of yours as opposed to your most humble opinion.

Evos are very skilled at demanding a higher level of substatiation for any creo claim than they themselves can ever present and then ridiculing creos over it. That would be called hypocrisy.

How about you post some of this research that demonstrates an organism has the ability to adapt without genomic limits to balance the plethora of research, observed breeding methods and response to climate change, that demonstrates adaptability has genomic limitations.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#106014 Nov 16, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Evolution is observable in nature and it is telling that you make such a comment that it isn't. It shows that you only post on here to preach your message and not learn. For if learning were part of this, you would have seen the many examples and explanations about observable evolution that have been posted on here.
We discussed Dr. Patterson in the past and whether you actually talked to the man or not, there is no evidence to support that his support of evolution ever wavered. In fact, the evidence shows that he accepted and supported the evidence of evolution to the end.
Adaptation is not evidence something like a deer can become something like a whale.

Adaptation is evidence that bacteria can become fitter bacteria and a deer can become a fitter deer and may even learn to swim and submerge, eg chevrotain, but will never adapt into a whale. That is your great leap of faith.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#106015 Nov 16, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't it great that evos can't explain anything with certainty and yet demand a higher level of substatiation from a creationist that an evolutionist can't present themselves.
Immunity is yet another irreducibly complex system that must have created itself in expectation of an organism becoming infected by another organism yet to evolve, according to evos. Mmmm!
No, we can explain. You are such a dolt that you REFUSE to understand.

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