Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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SBT
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#105829
Nov 14, 2013
 

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Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
pelycosaur to therapsid to early mammal shows the transition very plainly.
its true that a fossil chihuahua and a great dane might be mistaken for different species. But so what? Does saying that some species have huge morphological variation (especially when human breeding has been at play), mean that all examples of change, especially a continuum from say Australopithecis -> Georgicus _> erectus -> heidlebugensis -> sapiens is invalid?
Of course not. Don't be silly. There are NO sapiens fossils at the time of Australopithecus (various). So if you are saying the normal morphology of hominids 3 million years ago was very different but they are "really the same species" then who am I to argue with your chosen classification patterns? You simply have to look at the fossils and know their dating to see the obvious continuum of change over the period.
The underlying reality is that there was a change over time, consistent with the predictions of evolution.
The truth you always avoid is that there are NO verified fossils of any creature that violates the nested hierarchy of evolution. No creature is found before its necessary evolutionary antecedents could have existed. The rabbit in the Cambrian, again.
I live in a State were their are books dedicated to the issue of Fossils. We have beds everywhere here of about everything that ever swam, walked or flew. We don't have transitional forms, can you identify an intermediate common decent between a lizard and a turtle? We have both, buried in catastrophic water borne deposits.

http://www.icr.org/article/7541/
http://www.icr.org/article/turtles-snakes-no-...

We also have many creatures that are different animals not found today, they are extinct. We have Plesosaurs, Pterosaurs and horses, bison and mastodons, elephants and mammoths. All kinds of big cats, you name it, its crazy (see Fossils of Oregon, Orr and Orr.) all mixed together, drowned, sediment covered and trapped in eddies it appears. And like I mentioned in a previous post, mice, opossums and lemurs in one deposit along with too many other's to list here. So yes, a huge variety exist, so many that one could stand back and take a perspective that evolution could have taken place, and we just need more time to find those pesky intermediates, but upon close inspection the major gaps like the reptile/turtle series challenge us and now we know that the DNA data and mechanism's of order must be taken into account. Plus the variation factor mentioned adds to the mix. As an engineer and with a strong background in geology, the DNA must be dealt with, then the links, so I go to the field and see what the bible teaches fits much better. I do understand that one can be just as big a follower of God and twice as good a person as me and believe as you stated also. But I will say when they look at my perspective they relook at it all.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

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#105830
Nov 14, 2013
 
Lol - Subduction Zone's a boofhead.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

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#105831
Nov 14, 2013
 
Charles Idemi wrote:
English language originated in a place called, England. The people of England are called, the English and they are scattered worldwide, in places like the US, Canada, Australia, etc.
Your "etc" represents another 90 countries. This has nothing to do with a country "owning" a language. Why do you insist on dragging this argument on?

“I started out with nothing”

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Since: Nov 10

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#105832
Nov 14, 2013
 
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Lol. The US is composed of many different ethnic nationalities like French Americans, English Americans, etc, if you want to come up with that, you must remove all the ethnic groups that makes up the US.
So are you saying that there are less than 53 million English speakers in the US?

From what I see its actually around 80% for the 300+ million population, that’s almost 5 times the number of English speakers than there are in England

FYI, There are also many ethnic groups in the UK including Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Chinese, African, Caribbean, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Polish, Iranian and several more so if you want to deny that then remove all the ethnic groups that makes up the UK.
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> All wrong, do some research about the world language of trade, banking, etc, and see for yourself, all English.
No not wrong you fool, I live in France for around 10% of my life so don’t pull your ignorant incredulity on me. And I have done some research, I think if you want to continue to argue then you should take a dose of your own medicine and stop being such an ignorant and hypocritically condescending idiot
Charles Idemi wrote:
English language originated in a place called, England. The people of England are called, the English and they are scattered worldwide, in places like the US, Canada, Australia, etc.
Yes, that obvious but what has it to do with who owns what language?

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

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#105833
Nov 14, 2013
 
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I live in a State were their are books dedicated to the issue of Fossils. We have beds everywhere here of about everything that ever swam, walked or flew. We don't have transitional forms, can you identify an intermediate common decent between a lizard and a turtle? We have both, buried in catastrophic water borne deposits.
http://www.icr.org/article/7541/
http://www.icr.org/article/turtles-snakes-no-...
We also have many creatures that are different animals not found today, they are extinct. We have Plesosaurs, Pterosaurs and horses, bison and mastodons, elephants and mammoths. All kinds of big cats, you name it, its crazy (see Fossils of Oregon, Orr and Orr.) all mixed together, drowned, sediment covered and trapped in eddies it appears. And like I mentioned in a previous post, mice, opossums and lemurs in one deposit along with too many other's to list here. So yes, a huge variety exist, so many that one could stand back and take a perspective that evolution could have taken place, and we just need more time to find those pesky intermediates, but upon close inspection the major gaps like the reptile/turtle series challenge us and now we know that the DNA data and mechanism's of order must be taken into account. Plus the variation factor mentioned adds to the mix. As an engineer and with a strong background in geology, the DNA must be dealt with, then the links, so I go to the field and see what the bible teaches fits much better. I do understand that one can be just as big a follower of God and twice as good a person as me and believe as you stated also. But I will say when they look at my perspective they relook at it all.
No one is doubting the richness of fossils in Oregon. In fact, Oregon was a tropical rain forrest fifty million years ago, and most certainly was teaming with exotic wildlife. What's your point?

SBT
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Since: Jun 13

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#105834
Nov 14, 2013
 

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JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
oh, yay, sbt is back.
There have been no human fossil deposits found. There have been no animal fossil deposits found. Ans since this "flood" was less than 10k years ago, these "deposits" would have been pretty superficial.
Please don't start this cycle of BS again. We've discussed this again and again.
Oh, but your side says humans were around for well over a million years, where are the untold millions of remains? At the min. pop statistic, there should have been at least 10X26th lived and died, where are all your fossils?

SBT
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#105835
Nov 14, 2013
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Everybody has the right to write whatever they want. That does not make their writing valid for uses in debates.
For example the stories of Mother Goose have no place in this debate. Nor do stories by uneducated fools.
In a scientific debate articles based upon peer reviewed science is what matters.
As long as you play the judge part.

“I started out with nothing”

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Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#105836
Nov 14, 2013
 
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
France does not control their language globally. No country controls their language because it is not their language to control. No one "owns" a language, therefore no one can police a language. Institutions can set guidelines to follow, but this won't stop certain cultures from conjugating the verb to be as I be, You be, He be, We ... If Nigel wants to discuss his shed-ule while driving a lorry in grey trousers, no one will slap him with a language infraction.
It is true that In France many people are worried about the intrusion of English and Americanisms into their language, particularly if there is no French equivalent such as weekend and picnic or if it’s easier to say such as burger rather than steak hache.

The French government put restrictions on French in that it must be used in law and as the first language of the workplace but it is not universally (in France) accepted. There are several languages spoken in France, many of which are of French origin. For example, Languedoc and Dordogne have a high proportion of Occatan speakers, the street name signs of often found written in dual languages. Then there is Breton and the d’oil languages plus many more. The Spanish and Basque language are popular in the south west, German and Polish in the north east

The French government are attempting to promote “official” French as he language of the EU but are not having much success

As for globally, surely our dear chuckles is having a laugh. Try telling the Canadian French or the French Algerians that they should speak controlled French

SBT
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#105837
Nov 14, 2013
 

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JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
No one is doubting the richness of fossils in Oregon. In fact, Oregon was a tropical rain forrest fifty million years ago, and most certainly was teaming with exotic wildlife. What's your point?
My challenge was how can evolution explain the variation in the snake/lizard/turtle series and remain valid. There are no transitions found. It also takes alot of orderly alignment in their DNA and concordant operation of the anatomies. This is close inspection stuff that must be explained, that evolution bypasses like the single bone ear in reptiles becoming a 3 bone in mammals not to mention the corti. Poof, evo does it all, no questions asked.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#105838
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
Love it when you can mind-read Behe
Not necessary. When he TALKS BS all we need to do is point out he talks BS. That's why we know that ID is a BS lie which they have NEVER bothered to develop a scientific theory since they invented it 20 years ago. Or 4,000, depending on how ya look at it.
SBT wrote:
yet you are the first one to accuse me that I assume every evolutionist is an atheist, which I don't
Frankly I don't give a crap what you think.(shrug) You are not important.
SBT wrote:
but I see evo used everyday to intimidate believers or those considering.
No, MANIPULATE, not intimidate. We use you, quite deliberately, to demonstrate the dishonesty and vaccuousness of your position. You fundies could easy all join together and become an unbeatable team! But you don't because you're all stupid. Also there are evo posters who are believers too. And they also point out your lies because they know that evolution is correct and that you're liars for Jesus.

Even when you fundies outnumber us you STILL whine about how "mean and intimidating" us mean old evo's are, when what's actually happening is that you're BSing, and we get fed up and call you out on it. It's THAT simple.
SBT wrote:
Attacking a person when the person is simply the carrier of information about obvious complexity is defecting from the real point isn't it? Gish that, Behe this, S. Austin that
Yes, interesting you mention Gish. Since Gish gallop is EXACTLY what you engage in. Spout lots of BS which we debunk, then you spout more BS. If not you could finally answer my questions about complexity which you fundies have been avoiding for, oh, 7 years now. And that's just me, not even taking into account every other evo poster, and more importantly, the scientific community where you fundies can't get any headway even though you claim to have all the evidence.

Darn evo conspiracy. Must suck to be you.
SBT wrote:
How about Kenyon? I remember him from H.S., our scientist microbiologist evo-theologian now turned to ID. Also predicted that you would have no scientific come back on MO-1. Then accuse me of not responding!
That's because you don't. We predict you won't have any scientific comeback and so you keep telling us about all these cool IDCers you met. Their baseless religious opinions are irrelevant. There s a REASON why he's not taken seriously by the scientific community.
SBT wrote:
I don't have time for these games, I live in the real world doing real things that must work, playing in perceptions is for lawyers, politicians and mind-gamers.
Apparently you have PLENTY of time. It's all you do.(shrug)
SBT wrote:
God is the inventor of all that's seen and unseen, to accuse Him of not being scientific is the ultimate contradiction of terms, so I call that out.
No problem then. Science does not arbitrarily object to the existence of such a thing - God, ghosts, goblins, fairies, whatever you like. All you need to do is demonstrate how invisible Jew magic passes the scientific method. Simple. Take your time.

After all we've only been waiting THOUSANDS of years, so a smart guy like you shouldn't have any trouble, right?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#105839
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
Still nothing on the Forman Ovale SZ? thought we were talking origin's here? Find the evo explanation how a mutation created a valve that must work in perfect sequence or the next generation dies?
And a bridge will collapse without the center stone. Yet it was still formed bit by bit. No problem with genetic scaffolding.
SBT wrote:
They are they are biased because public opinion is so strong on this one so they play politics.
Um, bub, what do you think the creationist movement IS?

Duh.
SBT wrote:
People like me just get tired of paying for evo education in the public systems.
You're tired of *anything* socialist. Education doesn't matter to you, so since you are only interested in flunking out or learning how to be stupid via fundie homeschooling or private schools then yes, I can see why you would find that very frustrating.

Perhaps you'd prefer Iran.
SBT wrote:
So we pay extra and put our kids where truth is taught rather than some sci-fi religion.
Funny.
SBT wrote:
Look at where our youth are today, we say you need to live by moral codes, they say who's moral codes, we say Gods.
There is no morals with God. That's merely following orders.

From someone who happened to be an extreme psychopath.

That's why you fundies are such aholes.(shrug)
SBT wrote:
They say there is no God
Which is irrelevant to morality, and irrelevant to the validity of science.
SBT wrote:
so why should I obey rules that come from nothingness, that's old fashioned, get with the times Dad.
Funny though, I'm not really aware of any public schools violating the Constitution and teaching atheism as a fact. Plenty of fundies seem to be getting away with it though. So much for morality, eh?
SBT wrote:
God says one man one women for life and no hanky-panky in between and they say why not?, those are your rules not mine.
Yep, you're obsessed with sex. Not just your own, but everyone else's. And you like to call *others* perverted.
SBT wrote:
Billions of years, we are star-stuff so get an abortion, have your "freedom", man is the cancer of the earth yanno. And that is exactly what is going on, so our prisons and divorce courts are full and hearts that God made are broken.
Yes, man is a cancer. By following God's orders - take Earth, rape it. It's yours.
SBT wrote:
Explain the valve please.
Wow. All that irrelevant ranting and you finish with "explain the valve"? What's the problem? Did you manage to demonstrate that it was made with invisble Jewmagic? Thought not.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#105840
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
I live in a State were their are books dedicated to the issue of Fossils. We have beds everywhere here of about everything that ever swam, walked or flew. We don't have transitional forms, can you identify an intermediate common decent between a lizard and a turtle? We have both, buried in catastrophic water borne deposits.
Oh? We have plenty of transitionals, and we dubunked your flood a hundred times already.
SBT wrote:
We also have many creatures that are different animals not found today, they are extinct. We have Plesosaurs, Pterosaurs and horses, bison and mastodons, elephants and mammoths. All kinds of big cats, you name it, its crazy (see Fossils of Oregon, Orr and Orr.) all mixed together, drowned, sediment covered and trapped in eddies it appears. And like I mentioned in a previous post, mice, opossums and lemurs in one deposit along with too many other's to list here. So yes, a huge variety exist, so many that one could stand back and take a perspective that evolution could have taken place, and we just need more time to find those pesky intermediates
Not at all. find us an elephant in the pre-Cambrian. Find us ancient trilobites mixed with modern mice. Find us one velociraptor that managed to outrun a modern human or modern tree to the top. That should have been no problem.

But you can't. Clearly the fossil record demonstrates evolution. I'd post you a linky but I alread did that yesterday. You bozos still can't deal.
SBT wrote:
but upon close inspection the major gaps like the reptile/turtle series challenge us and now we know that the DNA data and mechanism's of order must be taken into account. Plus the variation factor mentioned adds to the mix. As an engineer and with a strong background in geology
Engineer you might be, which makes you a crap biologist AND geologist.

Of course such a background MIGHT give you an insight into how the flood would work. Me though, I can point out exactly why it doesn't work.
SBT wrote:
the DNA must be dealt with, then the links so I go to the field and see what the bible teaches fits much better.
Except for the fact it doesn't. DNA is a separate line of evidence to fossils so DNA doesn't have to explain fossils, especially when most fossils don't have DNA in the first place.
SBT wrote:
I do understand that one can be just as big a follower of God and twice as good a person as me and believe as you stated also. But I will say when they look at my perspective they relook at it all.
Problem is you HAVE no perspective. You have blinders. And you are NOT a good person.

That's why you lie all the time.

Remember, God is watching...
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#105841
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
As long as you play the judge part.
No, reality is the judge. And it clearly shows you can't demonstrate your position. We can.
The Dude

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#105842
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
My challenge was how can evolution explain the variation in the snake/lizard/turtle series and remain valid.
No it doesn't. Our theory has mechanisms, yours doesn't.
SBT wrote:
There are no transitions found.
There's lots. We can also explain why they are transitions, but you never address them.
SBT wrote:
It also takes alot of orderly alignment in their DNA and concordant operation of the anatomies. This is close inspection stuff that must be explained, that evolution bypasses like the single bone ear in reptiles becoming a 3 bone in mammals not to mention the corti.
Really? Then can you tell us why evolution has something to say about the existence of three middle-ear bones and feathers while your side does not?
SBT wrote:
Poof, evo does it all, no questions asked.
No, you're getting confused with creationism. How does Godmagic pass the scientific method again? Have you finally managed to get around to measuring complexity? If so, tell us how it's done.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

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#105843
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
My challenge was how can evolution explain the variation in the snake/lizard/turtle series and remain valid. There are no transitions found. It also takes alot of orderly alignment in their DNA and concordant operation of the anatomies. This is close inspection stuff that must be explained, that evolution bypasses like the single bone ear in reptiles becoming a 3 bone in mammals not to mention the corti. Poof, evo does it all, no questions asked.
How the turtle got its unique hard shell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment...

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

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The Borderland of Sol

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#105844
Nov 14, 2013
 
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Thanks. But i am not completely wrong. France still controls their language globally.
Yet AGAIN, no.

L'Académie Française, despite its "Immortals", serves as a purely advisory body.

In other words, despite Richelieu, it only makes suggestions.

Give it up, Chuck. You're just not good with languages.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

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#105845
Nov 14, 2013
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
It is true that In France many people are worried about the intrusion of English and Americanisms into their language, particularly if there is no French equivalent such as weekend and picnic or if it’s easier to say such as burger rather than steak hache.
The French government put restrictions on French in that it must be used in law and as the first language of the workplace but it is not universally (in France) accepted. There are several languages spoken in France, many of which are of French origin. For example, Languedoc and Dordogne have a high proportion of Occatan speakers, the street name signs of often found written in dual languages. Then there is Breton and the d’oil languages plus many more. The Spanish and Basque language are popular in the south west, German and Polish in the north east
The French government are attempting to promote “official” French as he language of the EU but are not having much success
As for globally, surely our dear chuckles is having a laugh. Try telling the Canadian French or the French Algerians that they should speak controlled French
It's a little-known fact that French continues to be the official second language in the US. All official documents must be available in both languages. US Passports are still written in English and French.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

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#105846
Nov 14, 2013
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
You know? Yet you still ignore – go figure
Nope many French are not dying to understand, I spend a great deal of time in France and I can assure you that most French people do not give a care for the English language other than the “weekend”. Figure that one out for yourself
The only places/occupations in France where English is a benefit is holiday resort bars, hotels, international pilots and some very few government officials. That is not because the French are dying to understand English it is because of the ignorance of the English not bothering to learn at least a little of the language of the country where spend there vacation. In the case of the 95%+ of government officials who don’t speak English they make a point of and are proud to insist on French.
<quoted text>
Yes you are really stupid, good observation. Why do you deliberately sew obfuscation? I am not claiming English is German or France, I am saying that English is mostly compiled from other languages and if it can be said that it belongs to anyone (as you claim) then it belongs to English speakers, not the country.
There are around 90 times more people who are not English who speak the English language as a first or flaunt language than there are English people. It can be argued using that criteria and your assertion that it belongs then it belongs to the USA, after all there are far more English speakers in the US than there are in England.
Yah.

Charles doesn't even speak French, apparently, and his grasp on English is iffy, too.

As an aside, English is my second language.

“See how you are?”

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#105851
Nov 14, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I live in the real world doing real things that must work, playing in perceptions is for lawyers, politicians and mind-gamers.
God is the inventor of all that's seen and unseen, to accuse Him of not being scientific is the ultimate contradiction of terms, so I call that out.
What (besides your playing in perceptions) is the evidence for your religious mind game?

Since: Mar 11

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#105852
Nov 14, 2013
 

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Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
How the turtle got its unique hard shell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment...
without the hard shell, how could the Great Turtle hold up the Earth? we have documented accounts that show this creation story is true.

and then there is the whole Yertle the Turtle episode...

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