Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#105853 Nov 14, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Love it when you can mind-read Behe, yet you are the first one to accuse me that I assume every evolutionist is an atheist, which I don't, but I see evo used everyday to intimidate believers or those considering. Attacking a person when the person is simply the carrier of information about obvious complexity is defecting from the real point isn't it? Gish that, Behe this, S. Austin that, etc. etc. How about Kenyon? I remember him from H.S., our scientist microbiologist evo-theologian now turned to ID. Also predicted that you would have no scientific come back on MO-1. Then accuse me of not responding! I don't have time for these games, I live in the real world doing real things that must work, playing in perceptions is for lawyers, politicians and mind-gamers.
God is the inventor of all that's seen and unseen, to accuse Him of not being scientific is the ultimate contradiction of terms, so I call that out.
Elohim= POWERS

Michael Behe is not a crea-fanatic. If anything he is very carefull not to draw any parallels.
Especially not since he got told of by the theological faculty of the university of Amsterdam before he went to the states, that he was in danger of creating 'A god of the gaps' which the theology does not support. Crea totally hinges on this point.
Since all that remains merely consist of filling in knowledge.
Behe is very aware of that.
You can't fail scientist for not knowing something as of yet (20 years ago)
Same fallacy as referring to Darwin.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#105854 Nov 14, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>without the hard shell, how could the Great Turtle hold up the Earth? we have documented accounts that show this creation story is true.
and then there is the whole Yertle the Turtle episode...
Bugger! I forgot about that!

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105855 Nov 14, 2013
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a little-known fact that French continues to be the official second language in the US. All official documents must be available in both languages. US Passports are still written in English and French.
It used to be the language of diplomats after they did away with latin.
And in many parts of the world French is still the second language.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#105856 Nov 14, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Back to the store for more irony meters.
Irony is you thinking you look smart by demonstrating your ignorance and incompetence. Evo waffler!

Evolutionary biologists have long sought to understand the relationship between microevolution (adaptation), which can be observed both in nature and in the laboratory, and macroevolution (speciation and the origin of the divisions of the taxonomic hierarchy above the species level, and the development of complex organs), which cannot be witnessed because it occurs over intervals that far exceed the human lifespan. The connection between these processes is also a major source of conflict between science and religious belief. Biologists often forget that Charles Darwin offered a way of resolving this issue, and his proposal is ripe for re-evaluation in the light of recent research.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v457/n72...

There is NO NO NO research that demonstrates the genomes ability to endlessly adapt. ALL lab experiments and nature show adaptation at species level, not above.

What recent research has demonstrated is that most mutations are deleterious and that even these so called 'beneficial' mutations brings about negative epistasis, even if they are lucky enough against all odds to be picked up in a major sweep. That's what scientists have found.

Breeders have known for centuries we can't breed a dog to be as big as an elephant, yet a microbe was meant to evolve into a dinosaur. Evo scientists are too intoxicated with their dogma to see reality even when it is smacking them in the face.

Indeed, all recent research demonstrates the genome is not designed to evolve/adapt without limit. Your simplisitc reply only suggests you're another waste of time like most of the evos here.
evo

Ozone Park, NY

#105857 Nov 14, 2013
tes

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#105858 Nov 14, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's your link showing my case with over 20 equations attempting to explain, in part, how blood works.
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTut...
How does this support your claim? It only shows that how blood does its various jobs is very complicated.

You are trying to make an argument from ignorance. That is always a losing game.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#105859 Nov 14, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
No, reality is the judge. And it clearly shows you can't demonstrate your position. We can.
The only position you have demonstrated is that you are an evo puppet and a waste of thread space.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#105860 Nov 14, 2013
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Bugger! I forgot about that!
The other thing you forgot, oh smart one, is that an old scroll written thousands of years before TOE was even thought of, got the fossil record right before evoclowns had to steal it and glorify themselves with their great work. For example, with all your bluster about organic soups and rubbish, you lot ended up agreeing with that old scroll account of life starting in the sea. Amazing isn't it!. LOL!.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#105861 Nov 14, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Irony is you thinking you look smart by demonstrating your ignorance and incompetence. Evo waffler!
Evolutionary biologists have long sought to understand the relationship between microevolution (adaptation), which can be observed both in nature and in the laboratory, and macroevolution (speciation and the origin of the divisions of the taxonomic hierarchy above the species level, and the development of complex organs), which cannot be witnessed because it occurs over intervals that far exceed the human lifespan. The connection between these processes is also a major source of conflict between science and religious belief. Biologists often forget that Charles Darwin offered a way of resolving this issue, and his proposal is ripe for re-evaluation in the light of recent research.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v457/n72...
There is NO NO NO research that demonstrates the genomes ability to endlessly adapt. ALL lab experiments and nature show adaptation at species level, not above.
What recent research has demonstrated is that most mutations are deleterious and that even these so called 'beneficial' mutations brings about negative epistasis, even if they are lucky enough against all odds to be picked up in a major sweep. That's what scientists have found.
Breeders have known for centuries we can't breed a dog to be as big as an elephant, yet a microbe was meant to evolve into a dinosaur. Evo scientists are too intoxicated with their dogma to see reality even when it is smacking them in the face.
Indeed, all recent research demonstrates the genome is not designed to evolve/adapt without limit. Your simplisitc reply only suggests you're another waste of time like most of the evos here.

Evolution is observed to happen at both the micro and macro level.

It is observed in the fossil record
It is observed in the genomic record.
It is observed in field studies.
It is observed in the laboratory.

Arguments that the Titanic is unsinkable are moot when the boat is lying at the bottom of the N. Atlantic.


Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#105862 Nov 14, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Irony is you thinking you look smart by demonstrating your ignorance and incompetence. Evo waffler!
Evolutionary biologists have long sought to understand the relationship between microevolution (adaptation), which can be observed both in nature and in the laboratory, and macroevolution (speciation and the origin of the divisions of the taxonomic hierarchy above the species level, and the development of complex organs), which cannot be witnessed because it occurs over intervals that far exceed the human lifespan. The connection between these processes is also a major source of conflict between science and religious belief. Biologists often forget that Charles Darwin offered a way of resolving this issue, and his proposal is ripe for re-evaluation in the light of recent research.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v457/n72...
There is NO NO NO research that demonstrates the genomes ability to endlessly adapt. ALL lab experiments and nature show adaptation at species level, not above.
What recent research has demonstrated is that most mutations are deleterious and that even these so called 'beneficial' mutations brings about negative epistasis, even if they are lucky enough against all odds to be picked up in a major sweep. That's what scientists have found.
Breeders have known for centuries we can't breed a dog to be as big as an elephant, yet a microbe was meant to evolve into a dinosaur. Evo scientists are too intoxicated with their dogma to see reality even when it is smacking them in the face.
Indeed, all recent research demonstrates the genome is not designed to evolve/adapt without limit. Your simplisitc reply only suggests you're another waste of time like most of the evos here.
Yes, all lab experiments show evolution at the species level. That is already not adaption. You are moving the goal posts again. You have been told countless times that to observe large scale evolution we use the fossil record. And large scale evolution is observable there. All observed evolution in the fossil record fits the evolutionary paradigm only. Creationists are unable to even come up with a testable hypothesis in regards to the fossil record. Let me clarify that, they have not been able to come up with a hypothesis that has not been totally debunked yet.

Second, the abstract from that article does not support your claims in any way. It is not good enough to actually post a link, and congratulations on finally learning how to post valid links again. You must quote applicable parts of the article when challenged.

So how does that article support you? I can't see any.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#105863 Nov 14, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
The other thing you forgot, oh smart one, is that an old scroll written thousands of years before TOE was even thought of, got the fossil record right before evoclowns had to steal it and glorify themselves with their great work. For example, with all your bluster about organic soups and rubbish, you lot ended up agreeing with that old scroll account of life starting in the sea. Amazing isn't it!. LOL!.
No, it didn't. What makes you think that? Are you talking about the order that life was supposedly "created"? It does not match what is observed in the fossil record. Are you talking about Noah's flood? That foolishness is more than easy to debunk. In fact it was debunked long before Darwin showed up.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#105864 Nov 14, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution is observed to happen at both the micro and macro level.
It is observed in the fossil record
It is observed in the genomic record.
It is observed in field studies.
It is observed in the laboratory.
Arguments that the Titanic is unsinkable are moot when the boat is lying at the bottom of the N. Atlantic.
And here above the circus starts again. When an evo can't win a point they refer to the entirety of their misrepresentation and rubbish. LOL..Happens every time....

No, unlimited adaptation is NOT seen in the fossil record. What is seen in the fossil record is punctuated equilibrium. IOW, very different organisms assumed to be ancestral because they breathe.

No, unlimited adaptation is NOT seen in genomics, What is found is that apes and mankind have different molecular machinery despite a hand full of dyed enzymes being able to be hammered into a sequence bootstrapped to the human genome.

No, unlimited adaptation is not seen in the lab and I have already posted a link to assist your confusion about what is actually seen in the lab. What you have found is every system in place to limit adaptation. eg inbuilt systems to clear out mutations, majority deleterious mutations and negative epistasis.

What you evos have found is every evidence of the genomes inability to adapt, from inbuilt systems all the way to deleterious mutations and negative epistasis. Then, after evos have the hide to steal the idea from an old scroll that got it right first, they try to glorify yourselves with it all. LOL!

You're already sunk pal. TOE is in a state of zombification with evo researchers having to get the rescusso machine out and pant life back into it on the back of non plausible scenarios and assumptions.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105865 Nov 14, 2013
page 2991

MazHere wrote:

Remember Subby
1. Creationist predictions are continuing to be validated with the expectation that 100% of the genome likely to be functional. This validation comes after evolutionists shoved junk dna down creos throats as proof TOE was true, there was no designer and creos were idiots. Now they scurry off in shame, suggest TOE never could make a prediction around non coding dna but creos can clearly see just whom the idiots really are!
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketsc ...
2. Creationists predictions are vestigial organs are continuing to be validated by evolutionists finding that these left over functionless organs do indeed have function. This validation comes after evolutionists found function in these organs and had to toddle off and redefine the definition of vestigial to reflect a different function.
http://www.naturalnews.com/022914_appendix_gu ...
3. Fossil evidence that is more in line with creationism then TOE. The Genesis account was the oldest account published that suggests the alignment of the fossil record from plant s to creatures of the sea, then land animals and lastly mankind. Evos were not the first to come up with this line up. Whales and birds are the only ones that evos have out of biblical alignment . Surprise, surprise they have been having trouble with these two ever since. Evos are still confused over whale bones found in strata dated to 290mya and have had to invent mythical theropods to wear a reversed hallux although not one single theropod ever found has modern avian feet. The data supports creationism and the hubris supports TOE.
http://www.ehow.com/list_7182299_fossils-foun ...
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n68 ...
4. Beneficial mutations have an overwhelmingly negative effect due to epistasis. All the recent data supports this. Clearly this is evidence in support of creationism and an organisms inability to limitlessly adapt for billions of years. Evos have come up with many theoretical assumptions to explain this in evolutionary terms and why TOE is not falsified. Hence the data supports creationism and the hubris supports TOE.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6034/11 ...
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6034/11 ...
5. All data suggests the genome is deteriorating. Again this is creationist support demonstrating that adaptation is limited. Again evos have to toddle off and come up with some story and convoluted hypothesis as to why a deteriorating genome does not falsify TOE. The data supports creationism and the hubris supports TOE.
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/1 ...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/ ...
http://www.naturalnews.com/021220_genetic_mod ...
6. Evolutionary supports are derived from arbitrary and pick a box morphological and genomic homology that changes like the wind and biased algorithmic magic that is no better than any algorithmic magic a creationists can provide. This is supported by an evolutionary history of falsifications, instability and change.
http://www.nature.com/news/studies-slow-the-h ...
None of the above links are to creationist sites. Many of the above links are to the actual peer reviewed work.
Conclusion: Creationist views are supported by research data. Evolutionary views are supported by excuses, hubris, rhetoric and pure speculation.
Hence challenging my interpretation of the data only requires evos to hand wave the data away and turn it into an evolutionary consundrum. I can accept the data above for what it is whist you invent hand waving scenarios.

Subduction zone: Actually all of those articles support the theory of evolution. They do not support creationism in any way.

cont.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#105866 Nov 14, 2013
MAAT: Just quoting an excerpt of a response to the actual article will not do to disproof.
Your understanding has been questioned before.

Taking one example from the above:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6034/11...
full text also provided.

Epistatic interactions between mutations play a prominent role in evolutionary theories. Many studies have found that epistasis is widespread, but they have rarely considered beneficial mutations. We analyzed the effects of epistasis on fitness for the first five mutations to fix in an experimental population of Escherichia coli. Epistasis depended on the effects of the combined mutationsthe larger the expected benefit, the more negative the epistatic effect. Epistasis thus tended to produce diminishing returns with genotype fitness, although interactions involving one particular mutation had the opposite effect. These data support models in which negative epistasis contributes to declining rates of adaptation over time. Sign epistasis was rare in this genome-wide study, in contrast to its prevalence in an earlier study of mutations in a single gene.

Do read carefully
Epistasis depended on the effects of the combined mutationsthe larger the expected benefit, the more negative the epistatic effect.

In E. coli

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#105867 Nov 14, 2013
For some odd reason no post yet.
See mazhere refuted before page 2991 of this thread.

““You must not lose faith ”

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Since: Jun 11

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#105868 Nov 14, 2013

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#105869 Nov 14, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
The other thing you forgot, oh smart one, is that an old scroll written thousands of years before TOE was even thought of, got the fossil record right before evoclowns had to steal it and glorify themselves with their great work. For example, with all your bluster about organic soups and rubbish, you lot ended up agreeing with that old scroll account of life starting in the sea. Amazing isn't it!. LOL!.
*helpless laughter*

What thousands-of-years-old "scroll" was that?

ROFLOL

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#105870 Nov 14, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, all lab experiments show evolution at the species level. That is already not adaption. You are moving the goal posts again. You have been told countless times that to observe large scale evolution we use the fossil record. And large scale evolution is observable there. All observed evolution in the fossil record fits the evolutionary paradigm only. Creationists are unable to even come up with a testable hypothesis in regards to the fossil record. Let me clarify that, they have not been able to come up with a hypothesis that has not been totally debunked yet.
.
You can't read. Even researchers admit lab experiments and nature are not evidence of an organisms ability to endlessly adapt per se ie macroevolution. Will you please start being sensible at least?

An organisms ability to interact with the environment, like immunity, is a created system now only being seen in epigentics that has now been found to inheritable. God gets it right every time.

You don't have any evidence of an organisms ability to adapt endlessly. Researchers can only come up with assumptions as to why all that they find hasn't sent all life into extinction. LOL!

I have already taken to point as made. Suck it up Subby.

I have a testable hyopthesis that being the genome is limited in its ability to adapt and that hypothesis is supported even with your crappy flawed research. That hypothesis not only supports a creationist paradigm it also coincidently falsifes TOE. Isn't that just wonderful, Subby?

What are you talking about moving goal posts? Listen Subby, an old scroll didn't have to bluster on about organic soup and clearly stated life began in the sea.

Those silly scientists should listed to the bible now and again. It would save them heaps of blustering about and wasting grant money.

Here is a lesson for today that I have posted before that obviously you have forgotten...

Man and ape have different molecular machinery. All your comparative genomics is a hammered sham.

"In PNAS, the team reports cloning the human and chimpanzee hydroxylase cDNAs, and identifying a mutation in the coding region of the human cDNA that regulates hydroxylase activity. The same gene in apes codes for a hydroxylase enzyme which adds this atom to the sialic acid molecule, but due to a mutation at some point in human evolution, the human gene lacks this coding section, accounting for the structural difference in the molecule."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/...

Different machinery pal. No ancestral connection unless one assumes "once upon a time", somewhere, somehow, humans 'evolved' new genomic machinery. LOL!

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#105871 Nov 14, 2013
It all depends upon interpretation.
Adaptation would be the failsafe mechanism.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/...

illustration. The third party effect?
Box 1: Empirical fitness landscapes reveal accessable evolutionary paths
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n71...

““You must not lose faith ”

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#105872 Nov 14, 2013
Full text
http://faculty.ucr.edu/~gupy/Publications/Nat...
Darwins bridge between microevolution
and macroevolution
David N. Reznick1 & Robert E. Ricklefs2
2009
[...]
According to Darwin, this combination of replacement and divergence causes cladogenesis: the splitting of one ancestral species into
more than one descendant. Continued divergence of form and function between genetically isolated species causes the branches of the tree of
life to grow ever farther apart, separated from one another by what seem to be unbridgeable gaps. Darwin argued that the processes of
diversification and extinction can explain the gaps that are seen among living species. Divergence pushes lineages apart, and extinction
erases the bridge that once joined them, creating the appearance of discontinuity.

[...]

Gould Species selection treats species as the unit of selection in the same way that natural selection treats individuals as the unit of selection.
Megaevolution and adaptive radiation
George Gaylord Simpsons proposed mechanism of megaevolution64 was a modern synthesis (1930s1950s) proposal for how natural selection can combine with other processes to explain species sorting.
It stands in opposition to species selection because macroevolution emerges from microevolutionary processes. Simpson combined the
idea of key adaptations, or changes that would allow organisms to expand into previously underutilized environments, with Sewall Wrights
theoretical models65 to explain the sudden appearance and expansion of successful lineages.
The key feature of Wrights models is the adaptive landscape. Adaptive peaks are defined by a combination of characters that must appear
together to define a well-adapted phenotype. Peaks are separated from one another by valleys, or character combinations that result in reduced
fitness. Wrights models invoked the combination of natural selection, genetic drift, mutation and migration, in allowing shifts between peaks.
Simpson adapted these models to a logical scenario for how a new lineage could be the product of accelerated peak-to-peak evolution. The fact that
such evolution is accelerated and happens in a restricted geographical region means that it is unlikely to be seen in the fossil record.
[...]The adults of such a descendent species would not be readily identifiable as being closely related to the adult life stage of its ancestor.
Box 1 | A brief survey of macroevolution
838
INSIGHT REVIEW NATURE|Vol 457|12 February 2009
2009

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