Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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#104738
Nov 5, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
One thing everyone is leaving out of their definition of abiogenesis is "assume" (hypothetical/hypothesis). They "assume" it is natural process by which life arises from organic compounds. Just like they used to "assume" spontaneous generation of life from nonliving matter.
By saying abiogenesis is not life from an inanimate source/inorganic compounds then you must "assume" life, in some form, always existed since/or before the BBT.
The word assume is taken seriously in much of science but if someone assumes God exists then he must be crazy right?
You guys talk about God as impossible, proven false, canít exist when your only honest claim can be "has not yet been shown and may never be". Unless you can show that every potential pathway for God to exist has been explored then you are lying by saying God is impossible, proven false or canít exist.
No, you are misstating what we say.

It seems you are more reasonable than most and realize that life did evolve from a single cell. So even though you do not like the word "abiogenesis" you are still accepting an abiogenesis event. The problem with claiming that "God did it" is that you need evidence to make that claim. One thing that scientists have learned is that "God did it" is a mental dead end and has been shown be wrong every time that it has been claimed in the past. So if you are going to make assumptions the reasonable one to make is the one that has been shown to be right in the past. In the past natural processes have won every time there was a debate.

So we have two very good reasons to assume that abiogenesis was a natural process. All other events have been shown to be the results of natural processes, never have we observed something where "God did it" was the right answer. And "God did it" is a mental dead end. You end up with an unsolvable question, something scientists do not like at all.

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St. Croix valley

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#104739
Nov 5, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
One thing everyone is leaving out of their definition of abiogenesis is "assume" (hypothetical/hypothesis). They "assume" it is natural process by which life arises from organic compounds. Just like they used to "assume" spontaneous generation of life from nonliving matter.
By saying abiogenesis is not life from an inanimate source/inorganic compounds then you must "assume" life, in some form, always existed since/or before the BBT.
The word assume is taken seriously in much of science but if someone assumes God exists then he must be crazy right?
You guys talk about God as impossible, proven false, canít exist when your only honest claim can be "has not yet been shown and may never be". Unless you can show that every potential pathway for God to exist has been explored then you are lying by saying God is impossible, proven false or canít exist.
well,rational people say the god of the bible has been proven false, because it has been. the gods of other religious mythologies have also been proven false.

and as to date, there isn't one shred of evidence to suggest any god, gods or goddesses exist. i don't know of any rational people that say they can prove no god exists.

just as you say, until every avenue of life arising from the known compounds of the universe has been explored, you cannot say it couldn't happen.

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#104740
Nov 5, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, a football is a sphere. Pretty much.
If Americans played FOOTball they wouldn't be spending 97% of the game carrying it in their hands.
A football is pretty much a sphere! LOL

Can you show me how a football which is oblong, longer in length than it is across, bigger in the middle and tapers down as it goes to the ends is pretty much a sphere?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Tampa, FL

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#104741
Nov 5, 2013
 

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MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Life is a complex factory of reproduction and metabolism. Scientists have every possible environment able to be reproduced in the lab. They can muck around with genes. Yet, after all this time and funding the fact is they have NOT made a living life form.
Speaking of 'several ways' that life theoretically could have made the jump is really just another way of saying, scientists cannot do it.
One more variation of the old "We don't know everything so we don't know anything" argument. Well done.

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#104742
Nov 5, 2013
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you are misstating what we say.
It seems you are more reasonable than most and realize that life did evolve from a single cell. So even though you do not like the word "abiogenesis" you are still accepting an abiogenesis event. The problem with claiming that "God did it" is that you need evidence to make that claim. One thing that scientists have learned is that "God did it" is a mental dead end and has been shown be wrong every time that it has been claimed in the past. So if you are going to make assumptions the reasonable one to make is the one that has been shown to be right in the past. In the past natural processes have won every time there was a debate.
So we have two very good reasons to assume that abiogenesis was a natural process. All other events have been shown to be the results of natural processes, never have we observed something where "God did it" was the right answer. And "God did it" is a mental dead end. You end up with an unsolvable question, something scientists do not like at all.
You are misstating what I say.

So for you lets put it in question form.

1. is abiogenesis the "assumption" of natural process by which life arises from organic compounds.

2. do you "assume" life in some form always existed before or/after the BBT?

3. has every potential pathway for God to exist been explored?

4. If your answer to 2 is no. Then where/when did nonlife become life?

5. if your answer to 3 is no. Then you can't state God does not exist or is impossible. Unless you only go by absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Which could be used in several scientific theories as well.

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#104743
Nov 5, 2013
 
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Life is a complex factory of reproduction and metabolism. Scientists have every possible environment able to be reproduced in the lab. They can muck around with genes. Yet, after all this time and funding the fact is they have NOT made a living life form.
Speaking of 'several ways' that life theoretically could have made the jump is really just another way of saying, scientists cannot do it.
Scientists have had lab experiments running for millions and millions of years?

can i visit this lab?

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#104744
Nov 5, 2013
 
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>well,rational people say the god of the bible has been proven false, because it has been. the gods of other religious mythologies have also been proven false.
and as to date, there isn't one shred of evidence to suggest any god, gods or goddesses exist. i don't know of any rational people that say they can prove no god exists.
just as you say, until every avenue of life arising from the known compounds of the universe has been explored, you cannot say it couldn't happen.
Why is it you always and most only attack God issues? I noticed you completely ignored the abiogenesis parts of that comment.

You have a problem with God other than just in a scientific way for that is all you ever attack and you always claim you have proof but always fail to show such proof. A poorly written book by man is not evidence of God being false.

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#104745
Nov 5, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
One thing everyone is leaving out of their definition of abiogenesis is "assume" (hypothetical/hypothesis). They "assume" it is natural process by which life arises from organic compounds. Just like they used to "assume" spontaneous generation of life from nonliving matter.
Since there has never been any evidence of a non-natural process, to make the assumption it is natural is both reasonable and prudent.
The spontaneous generation reference is a red herring.
replaytime wrote:
By saying abiogenesis is not life from an inanimate source/inorganic compounds then you must "assume" life, in some form, always existed since/or before the BBT.
Hold on, who said that?
[QUOTE who="replaytime"]The word assume is taken seriously in much of science but if someone assumes God exists then he must be crazy right?
Not necessarily. But some of them are a little whacky.
replaytime wrote:
You guys talk about God as impossible, proven false, canít exist when your only honest claim can be "has not yet been shown and may never be".
Yeah. So?
replaytime wrote:
Unless you can show that every potential pathway for God to exist has been explored then you are lying by saying God is impossible, proven false or canít exist.
"You" is a rather broad term. There are some here - Skeptic comes to mind - that have made that claim. I and others have not. While I see no reason to believe a god (a vague term) exists, I allow for the possibility however remote.

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#104746
Nov 5, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
A football is pretty much a sphere! LOL
Can you show me how a football which is oblong, longer in length than it is across, bigger in the middle and tapers down as it goes to the ends is pretty much a sphere?
Europe, RP. Different football.

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#104747
Nov 5, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
4. If your answer to 2 is no. Then where/when did nonlife become life?
That is the question at hand, is it not?

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#104748
Nov 5, 2013
 
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>Scientists have had lab experiments running for millions and millions of years?
can i visit this lab?
How did you come up with that our of their comment?

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#104749
Nov 5, 2013
 
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Europe, RP. Different football.
Yes Mike. I should have took into consideration that they call a soccer ball a football.

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#104750
Nov 5, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
You are misstating what I say.
So for you lets put it in question form.
1. is abiogenesis the "assumption" of natural process by which life arises from organic compounds.[QUOTE]

No.

[QUOTE]
2. do you "assume" life in some form always existed before or/after the BBT?
What do you mean by the "BBT"? Is that supposed to be the Big Bang Theory? That seems to be a very foolish question. On the Earth we are very sure that there was no life when the planet was first formed. It was too hot, there was no liquid water. One thing that life has always shown that it needs is liquid water.
3. has every potential pathway for God to exist been explored?
Another foolish question. The obvious answer is no. Why should we try to do this? It seems to be a from of research that would produce no usable results. How would you go about doing that in the first place? And for what purpose?
4. If your answer to 2 is no. Then where/when did nonlife become life?
The best estimate is about 3.5 billion years ago.
5. if your answer to 3 is no. Then you can't state God does not exist or is impossible. Unless you only go by absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Which could be used in several scientific theories as well.
I never did. Atheists do not need to disprove God to be an atheist. Assuming that you are a Christian that is a hypocritical standard to set. Do you have evidence that all of the other gods that people believe in are false? Atheists, as a rule, do not believe that there is evidence that god does not exist, they believe, and are supported by science to date, that there is no evidence that supports the existence of god. It is illogical to believe in something that you do not have evidence for.

I am not a "radical Atheist" that claims that God does not exist. If there was evidence for god's existence then I would happily admit that I was wrong. Until then I will treat the existence of god as any other crazy idea that has no evidence to support it. I will say that I don't believe it, but will admit that my mind could be changed.

Now the reasons NOT to believe in any one specific god is another topic and we could get into that, but I don't want to get into a theological debate here.

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#104751
Nov 5, 2013
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you mean by the "BBT"? Is that supposed to be the Big Bang Theory? That seems to be a very foolish question. On the Earth we are very sure that there was no life when the planet was first formed. It was too hot, there was no liquid water. One thing that life has always shown that it needs is liquid water.
<quoted text>
Another foolish question. The obvious answer is no. Why should we try to do this? It seems to be a from of research that would produce no usable results. How would you go about doing that in the first place? And for what purpose?
<quoted text>
The best estimate is about 3.5 billion years ago.
<quoted text>
I never did. Atheists do not need to disprove God to be an atheist. Assuming that you are a Christian that is a hypocritical standard to set. Do you have evidence that all of the other gods that people believe in are false? Atheists, as a rule, do not believe that there is evidence that god does not exist, they believe, and are supported by science to date, that there is no evidence that supports the existence of god. It is illogical to believe in something that you do not have evidence for.
I am not a "radical Atheist" that claims that God does not exist. If there was evidence for god's existence then I would happily admit that I was wrong. Until then I will treat the existence of god as any other crazy idea that has no evidence to support it. I will say that I don't believe it, but will admit that my mind could be changed.
Now the reasons NOT to believe in any one specific god is another topic and we could get into that, but I don't want to get into a theological debate here.
On 1 you say "no". Wrong abiogenesis is the hypothetical natural process by which life arises from simple organic compounds.
Hypothetical=assumed by hypothesis. Hypothesis=assumption: a statement that is assumed to be true for the sake of argument.

On 2 you say "no" which means there was no life.

On 3 you say "no and why should we" Then you cannot claim God is false or not real if you haven't taken the steps to se if God is real or not.

On 4 you say 3.5 million years ago. My mistake for asking "when/where" in the question. I should of put "how/where did nonlife become life".

On 5 you say a lot but is short you are saying "absence of evidence is evidence of absence".

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#104752
Nov 5, 2013
 

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replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
How did you come up with that our of their comment?
i can use logic far better than you can...

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#104753
Nov 5, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you serious? Do you have to cool swimming pools?
Gawd yeah. Its like swimming in a hot bath in summer...you get exhausted in a length...when the ambient temp is averaging 45 deg and the water naturally warms to that level, just imagine. And not cooling at night. All the good places and hotels really do have cooled pools, and advertise it.

In kuwait the water tank was on the roof and the hot water cylinder was inside. I kid you not - in summer I would shower using the "cold" water from the roof which was over 40 deg C, and the hot water tank inside was turned off. The water in there was colder because it sat there cooling to the A/C ambient temp of about 25. But then, Kuwait is both hotter in summer (50+ at times) and cooler in winter (down to about 15 at times) than Dubai, which ranges usually from about 46 down to 20 in winter.

What a place.

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#104754
Nov 5, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is it you always and most only attack God issues? I noticed you completely ignored the abiogenesis parts of that comment.
You have a problem with God other than just in a scientific way for that is all you ever attack and you always claim you have proof but always fail to show such proof. A poorly written book by man is not evidence of God being false.
no, i clearly did not. ty reading it again.

try getting smarter, that might help also...

and who brought up the god issue here? wasn't that you? yes it was...

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#104755
Nov 5, 2013
 

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woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>i can use logic far better than you can...
So that's why you think your smart. You make up BS and call it logic when you can't comprehend what you read.

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#104756
Nov 5, 2013
 
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
So that's why you think your smart. You make up BS and call it logic when you can't comprehend what you read.
do you really need me to walk you through it...again...?

stomp your foot twice for no, once for yes...

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#104757
Nov 5, 2013
 
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>no, i clearly did not. ty reading it again.
try getting smarter, that might help also...
and who brought up the god issue here? wasn't that you? yes it was...
Oh so this is you addressing and talking about abiogenesis.
"just as you say, until every avenue of life arising from the known compounds of the universe has been explored, you cannot say it couldn't happen."

My bad. I should have known it would be something simple like the usual BS from you.

I am till waiting for your evidence that God is proven false.

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