Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
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98,721 - 98,740 of 115,227 Comments Last updated 46 min ago

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104302 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you say it doesn't matter. OK.
Your rambling on about function doesn't support you case against evolution. You are just throwing all that talk about motors out there as a smoke screen and hoping it will shake off some of the biologists. The function is a result of the evolution and not a description of the mechanism of that evolution.

There are a number of studies and reviews in the literature on the evolution of the bacterial flagellar motor. Several have been provided to you. You just ignore that and ramble on about how your argument from incredulity is shaking the pillars of evolution or some such nonsense.

Irreducible complexity doesn't hold up as a concept. If it did, there would be no guarantee that your jumping to a designer is the proper conclusion. You would still be left with no scientific way to support that. All you really have is a version of faith and a lot of misunderstanding about science.

By the way, there are different mechanisms powering different flagella. Not just the proton power that you ramble on about.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#104303 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, the jury agrees with me.
You don't understand real articles when you link them and rely on garbage sites that are not based upon peer reviewed science.
TalkOrigins is based upon peer reviewed science and includes the sources of their science in their articles.
The avoidance of peer reviewed science by creationists is there Achilles Heel. That is why they always lose court cases. Judges may not be experts at science, but they can still tell shit from Shinola.
Some garbage sites i reviewed, peer reviewed to make you happy;

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp...
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/351625
http://www.iris.ethz.ch/msrl/publications/fil...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23818629
http://biocyc.org/ECOLI/new-image...

All these use electric motor analogy in attempts to explain the axial device, most express an inability to understand how much of it works. They all take an observational standpoint, like man looking into space and saying "wow". None attempt to explain the sequence control or proton magnitude control of the coil pulse, they stick to torque/speed measurements which appear analogous to PLC's, as they observe step incremental changes in speed and torque rather than analog changes, go figure.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#104304 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Some garbage sites i reviewed, peer reviewed to make you happy;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp...
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/351625
http://www.iris.ethz.ch/msrl/publications/fil...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23818629
http://biocyc.org/ECOLI/new-image...
All these use electric motor analogy in attempts to explain the axial device, most express an inability to understand how much of it works. They all take an observational standpoint, like man looking into space and saying "wow". None attempt to explain the sequence control or proton magnitude control of the coil pulse, they stick to torque/speed measurements which appear analogous to PLC's, as they observe step incremental changes in speed and torque rather than analog changes, go figure.
Yes, and all of the writers of those articles accept the theory of evolution. They all know that the bacteria, along with its flagellum evolved.

None of them are garbage sites and none of them support your claim of creation.

“I'm Your Huckleberry ”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

That's Just My Game

#104305 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, the jury agrees with me.
You don't understand real articles when you link them and rely on garbage sites that are not based upon peer reviewed science.
TalkOrigins is based upon peer reviewed science and includes the sources of their science in their articles.
The avoidance of peer reviewed science by creationists is there Achilles Heel. That is why they always lose court cases. Judges may not be experts at science, but they can still tell shit from Shinola.
His Yale article link wasn't good enough?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#104306 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Some garbage sites i reviewed, peer reviewed to make you happy;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp...
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/351625
http://www.iris.ethz.ch/msrl/publications/fil...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23818629
http://biocyc.org/ECOLI/new-image...
All these use electric motor analogy in attempts to explain the axial device, most express an inability to understand how much of it works. They all take an observational standpoint, like man looking into space and saying "wow". None attempt to explain the sequence control or proton magnitude control of the coil pulse, they stick to torque/speed measurements which appear analogous to PLC's, as they observe step incremental changes in speed and torque rather than analog changes, go figure.
And seriously, I don't think any of them "express an inability to understand how much of it works'.

When you make stupid claims like that you should back them up with quotes from the article. It seems that you are the one who is not understanding how these simple "motors" work.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#104307 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyone ever observe these steps you speak of? Like the whole of evolutionary biology, it either happens so fast we cant see it (Gould), or so slowly we can't detect it,(Darwin).
At least on Star Wars, Back to the Future or Star Trek, we have Luke, the Professor and Scotty, and you folks have the Time God. If Scotty told us his Warp Drive came from a God the series would have been over, kids expect better fiction than that! But if talkorigins says so that works for you? The papers I quoted use a pile of far more current references and the foundational one's also. Look up how a controller activates axial connected electric motors using pulse coil technology and how the needed 1.1 mil/pulses/sec to run this motor @ 100,000 rpm would entail all by and by accident's. Its a real motor. AC motors need a special transmission to vari speed and can't reverse! None of your talkorigins lit touches this. Even if they understood the principals,(which after a casual reading they don't, not even close) the perfectly ordered gene data required to build and run this thing must be explained, but no, just drop the word evolution here and there and all the DNA controlled design is automatically explained, how simple. Even the science fiction stories I quote are more plausable.
Bravo!

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104308 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Some garbage sites i reviewed, peer reviewed to make you happy;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp...
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/351625
http://www.iris.ethz.ch/msrl/publications/fil...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23818629
http://biocyc.org/ECOLI/new-image...
All these use electric motor analogy in attempts to explain the axial device, most express an inability to understand how much of it works. They all take an observational standpoint, like man looking into space and saying "wow". None attempt to explain the sequence control or proton magnitude control of the coil pulse, they stick to torque/speed measurements which appear analogous to PLC's, as they observe step incremental changes in speed and torque rather than analog changes, go figure.
That's fantastic. Good show old man. Still, it doesn't refute evolution. It is akin to my explaining the function of bark and claiming that refutes how the forest was formed.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104309 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
And seriously, I don't think any of them "express an inability to understand how much of it works'.
When you make stupid claims like that you should back them up with quotes from the article. It seems that you are the one who is not understanding how these simple "motors" work.
A very good point. I was reviewing his links, and it seems that his claim is made in hopes no one would follow up it and find out it was bullshit.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104310 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Bravo!
You have no idea about any of this do you. You are just backing a fellow anti-science, hack.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#104311 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
The inevitable walking tree theory:
Given enough time, chance and planets , a walking tree is quite plausible. Trees have the ability to bend with the wind so sooner or later a tree will have the proper mutation enabling it to have incredible flexibility enough for walking. Since trees are known to seek out the sun , to grow towards it , this decision by the tree will only evolve into a higher level of decision making, resulting in a greater self awareness of it's enviroment, allowing the tree to understand that when water is scarce, it must seek out other sources. As the root system evolves to meet the tree's movement needs , they will become shallower with each generation until a series of biped appendages evolve that allows the movement possible. Whole herds of roaming tree's will cover the areas of the planet where the water is abundant. Vocal organs will no doubt evolve then to enable the tree herds to communicate in their migration........
and before you know it the tree's will be carrying Hobbits and a movie trilogy will be made
Lord of the Rings
the end
Here go Dan

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#104312 Nov 2, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>You have no idea about any of this do you. You are just backing a fellow anti-science, hack.
Coming soon ! I'll explain how beef stew emerged through natural processes alone without any intelligent design.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104313 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Some garbage sites i reviewed, peer reviewed to make you happy;
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp...
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/351625
http://www.iris.ethz.ch/msrl/publications/fil...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23818629
http://biocyc.org/ECOLI/new-image...
All these use electric motor analogy in attempts to explain the axial device, most express an inability to understand how much of it works. They all take an observational standpoint, like man looking into space and saying "wow". None attempt to explain the sequence control or proton magnitude control of the coil pulse, they stick to torque/speed measurements which appear analogous to PLC's, as they observe step incremental changes in speed and torque rather than analog changes, go figure.
That second link is to an abstract of a review paper. In the abstract in tells us that it will provide an overview of a number of components of bacterial physiology, genetics and structure including bacterial motility. Did you read the actual paper? Out of curiosity, what did you get from that reference that supports your position? We can't tell from our side, since it just says it will tell us all about it in the rest of the paper.

Another paper on how the flagellum senses load and changes speed. That doesn't say anything about the evolution of the flagellum. Another on nanotechnology modeled on the bacterial flagellum. Nothing there to support your point and no mention of evolution either.

No wonder you don't find papers including "evolution" and bacterial flagellar motor". You aren't looking for them.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104314 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Here go Dan
So you write story about walking tree. You good Bohart. You like Wizard of Oz.

Keep clicking Dorothy. You go home maybe.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#104315 Nov 2, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
His Yale article link wasn't good enough?
"His" Yale article did not agree with him. It was of no use to his claim.

You really have taken a turn to the stupid side the last few nights.

What is wrong with you? Trouble at home?

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104316 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Here go Dan
Yes, you clearly know nothing about the science. You can apply for a job at Campbells if you want, but I think they require that there employees don't drool.

Walking trees? What a brilliant example. I think you are wasting time on examining tree mobility, when you focusing on that cognitive ability you think trees have. You would definitely join the pantheons of science if you can show how trees decide to evolve the ability to walk.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104317 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming soon ! I'll explain how beef stew emerged through natural processes alone without any intelligent design.
Yes, you are clearly so well versed in science that you probably think antimatter is a political position.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104318 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
"His" Yale article did not agree with him. It was of no use to his claim.
You really have taken a turn to the stupid side the last few nights.
What is wrong with you? Trouble at home?
His girlfriend left him.

Well she sprung a leak anyway.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104319 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
"His" Yale article did not agree with him. It was of no use to his claim.
You really have taken a turn to the stupid side the last few nights.
What is wrong with you? Trouble at home?
Replay is ignoring me these days. He thinks it bothers me. I assume since it bothers him he figures everyone else is too.

I like it. I can say whatever I want and he won't challenge it. You know what they say. Silence is agreement.

I see you have been slapping him around so much, he has foaming at the mouth.

“I have upset the hand of god”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Threats pending

#104320 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming soon ! I'll explain how beef stew emerged through natural processes alone without any intelligent design.
If you would focus your thinking around the last four words in your second sentence, you would be on your way to gaining some knowledge of science.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#104321 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
At least on Star Wars, Back to the Future or Star Trek, we have Luke, the Professor and Scotty, and you folks have the Time God.
This from the person who claimed that a picture of a bacterium with a flagellum justified the idiotic claim that biologists thought bacteria emerged from the primordial soup with a fully fledged flagellum.

And now to your next dumb strawman.

No biologist would regard "give it time" as a sufficient explanation. That is the dumbest misrepresentation yet.

Biologists understand a mechanism of evolutionary change - mutation and natural selection. It happens to be a process that takes considerable time. That is not the same thing as saying time is the mechanism. Building a mountain range through tectonic plate movement takes time but nobody claims the Time God is the mechanism responsible for mountain building.

I marvel at your claims to be involved with complex engineering when you make such basic logical errors. But then perhaps you are not really that stupid, you just hope your audience is. No doubt morons are applauding your "clever" Time God argument.

As to the flagellum. Behe claimed it was irreducibly complex. Biologists have amply demonstrated that this is false. Blather all you like, nobody can prove the irreducible complexity of anything. Its more smoke and mirrors.

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