Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 164680 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#104318 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
"His" Yale article did not agree with him. It was of no use to his claim.
You really have taken a turn to the stupid side the last few nights.
What is wrong with you? Trouble at home?
His girlfriend left him.

Well she sprung a leak anyway.

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#104319 Nov 2, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
"His" Yale article did not agree with him. It was of no use to his claim.
You really have taken a turn to the stupid side the last few nights.
What is wrong with you? Trouble at home?
Replay is ignoring me these days. He thinks it bothers me. I assume since it bothers him he figures everyone else is too.

I like it. I can say whatever I want and he won't challenge it. You know what they say. Silence is agreement.

I see you have been slapping him around so much, he has foaming at the mouth.

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#104320 Nov 2, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming soon ! I'll explain how beef stew emerged through natural processes alone without any intelligent design.
If you would focus your thinking around the last four words in your second sentence, you would be on your way to gaining some knowledge of science.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#104321 Nov 2, 2013
SBT wrote:
At least on Star Wars, Back to the Future or Star Trek, we have Luke, the Professor and Scotty, and you folks have the Time God.
This from the person who claimed that a picture of a bacterium with a flagellum justified the idiotic claim that biologists thought bacteria emerged from the primordial soup with a fully fledged flagellum.

And now to your next dumb strawman.

No biologist would regard "give it time" as a sufficient explanation. That is the dumbest misrepresentation yet.

Biologists understand a mechanism of evolutionary change - mutation and natural selection. It happens to be a process that takes considerable time. That is not the same thing as saying time is the mechanism. Building a mountain range through tectonic plate movement takes time but nobody claims the Time God is the mechanism responsible for mountain building.

I marvel at your claims to be involved with complex engineering when you make such basic logical errors. But then perhaps you are not really that stupid, you just hope your audience is. No doubt morons are applauding your "clever" Time God argument.

As to the flagellum. Behe claimed it was irreducibly complex. Biologists have amply demonstrated that this is false. Blather all you like, nobody can prove the irreducible complexity of anything. Its more smoke and mirrors.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#104322 Nov 3, 2013
The same old stories. God created the universe. The universe can not be said to evolve without a cause or maker.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#104323 Nov 3, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming soon ! I'll explain how beef stew emerged through natural processes alone without any intelligent design.
Evolutionary researchers are looking for alien stew these days, it seems. You may be interested in this research below, if you haven't seen it already.

Evolution predicts that the fundamental molecular processes within the cell, that perform functions common to all life, are conserved and originate from a common ancestor.

Initially it appeared that this prediction was confirmed. However recent research surprisingly confirms that the protein sequences of several central components of the DNA replication machinery, above all the principal replicative polymerases, show very little or no sequence similarity between bacteria and archaea/eukaryotes.

Here is published research that seriously challenges the credibility of the current evolutionary paradigm and supports a creationist paradigm and predictions.

"Epistemological issues in the study of microbial life: alternative terran biospheres?"

Abstract
The assumption that all life on Earth today shares the same basic molecular architecture and biochemistry is part of the paradigm of modern biology. This paper argues that there is little theoretical or empirical support for this widely held assumption.

..... Significantly, the most powerful molecular biology techniques available-polymerase chain reaction (PCR) amplification of rRNA genes augmented by metagenomic analysis-could not detect such microbes if they existed. Given the profound philosophical and scientific importance that such a discovery would represent, a dedicated search for 'shadow microbes'(heretofore unrecognized 'alien' forms of terran microbial life) seems in order.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18053938

Here above we see evolutionary researchers inadvertently supporting creationists predictions and claims in principle, while falsifying the current evolutionary paradigm..THERE ARE NO COMMON ANCESTORS BETWEEN MAN AND MICROBE.

Since: Oct 13

Lancaster, SC

#104324 Nov 3, 2013
EVOLUTION was CREATED by something or somebody. God??

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#104325 Nov 3, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolutionary researchers are looking for alien stew these days, it seems. You may be interested in this research below, if you haven't seen it already.
Evolution predicts that the fundamental molecular processes within the cell, that perform functions common to all life, are conserved and originate from a common ancestor.
No, "common ancestry" predicts this, not evolution. There is, obviously, common ancestry in evolutionary predictions back to a certain point but there is no reason it has to be all the way to the base.

If life originated in two lines (or more), either by splitting very early in the protocell stage or even beginning entirely separately, then significant deep level differences between bacteria (+ all eukaryotes) and archaea are perfectly possible within the evolutionary framework.

One early life hypothesis proposed a splitting before even the cell wall was established, in a deep sea smoker environment.

So you are jumping to a conclusion on what evolution is supposed to predict, then attacking the straw man.

I would say, on the other hand, that the presence of at least two deeply different, functioning biological systems in life on Earth is good circumstantial evidence that a multitude of coherent bio-chemical systems are possible and that this suggests life may be common in the universe.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#104326 Nov 3, 2013
Charles Idemi wrote:
The same old stories. God created the universe. The universe can not be said to evolve without a cause or maker.
Yes, you are supporting the same old stories.

Scientists, on the other hand, are trying to work out what happened by looking at reality instead.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#104327 Nov 3, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming soon ! I'll explain how beef stew emerged through natural processes alone without any intelligent design.
A cow fell into a hot spring.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#104328 Nov 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, "common ancestry" predicts this, not evolution. There is, obviously, common ancestry in evolutionary predictions back to a certain point but there is no reason it has to be all the way to the base.
If life originated in two lines (or more), either by splitting very early in the protocell stage or even beginning entirely separately, then significant deep level differences between bacteria (+ all eukaryotes) and archaea are perfectly possible within the evolutionary framework.
One early life hypothesis proposed a splitting before even the cell wall was established, in a deep sea smoker environment.
So you are jumping to a conclusion on what evolution is supposed to predict, then attacking the straw man.
I would say, on the other hand, that the presence of at least two deeply different, functioning biological systems in life on Earth is good circumstantial evidence that a multitude of coherent bio-chemical systems are possible and that this suggests life may be common in the universe.
No, I am not jumping to any conclusion. My conclusion is shared by the evolutionary researchers quoted. If you would like to contest that conclusion perhaps you could also provide some empirical research of your own, to support your opinion.

See!

"Abstract
The assumption that all life on Earth today shares the same basic molecular architecture and biochemistry is part of the paradigm of modern biology. This paper argues that there is little theoretical or empirical support for this widely held assumption."

Regardless of your opinion, the research clearly falsifies the current evolutionary paradigm, yet again, and supports the claim that there are no common ancestors between man and microbe.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#104329 Nov 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
A cow fell into a hot spring.
Exactly. The carbon cycle requires life. Life requires the carbon cycle. Which came first?

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#104330 Nov 3, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly. The carbon cycle requires life. Life requires the carbon cycle. Which came first?
Maz! You're back. Where have you been hiding?

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#104331 Nov 3, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Maz! You're back. Where have you been hiding?
I took a long long break and have been back a little while chatting, or rather arguing, with other theists.

And you? Have you had any new discussions recently?

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#104332 Nov 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
This from the person who claimed that a picture of a bacterium with a flagellum justified the idiotic claim that biologists thought bacteria emerged from the primordial soup with a fully fledged flagellum.
And now to your next dumb strawman.
No biologist would regard "give it time" as a sufficient explanation. That is the dumbest misrepresentation yet.
Biologists understand a mechanism of evolutionary change - mutation and natural selection. It happens to be a process that takes considerable time. That is not the same thing as saying time is the mechanism. Building a mountain range through tectonic plate movement takes time but nobody claims the Time God is the mechanism responsible for mountain building.
I marvel at your claims to be involved with complex engineering when you make such basic logical errors. But then perhaps you are not really that stupid, you just hope your audience is. No doubt morons are applauding your "clever" Time God argument.
As to the flagellum. Behe claimed it was irreducibly complex. Biologists have amply demonstrated that this is false. Blather all you like, nobody can prove the irreducible complexity of anything. Its more smoke and mirrors.
A pleasant philosophic argument, but not a shred of evidence to refute what I presented from a science perspective, and the typical blame Behe wrap-up. So please elaborate on my "basic logical errors", you could even quote Berg from Harvard, who in one paper simply states the motor took "billions" of years to evolve, then skips the topic and gets into the science, that all? No mention how it evolved, its stages, not a thing, just this little disclaimer. I that enough? I think not, he doesn't want to go there, no way. Same from his Yale counterpart. So just follow that trail for a while and where does it lead? a talkorigins imposter. Like the cell, the more they research the more complicated these motors are found to be, then to the rescue commeth a cadre of laymen saying it evolved, with only words for evidence. To those of us on the technology side who have to apply intelligence to matter everyday too make a real living in the real world, the situation is obvious.

It's a proton powered motor that measures out protons by counts,(e.coli is 32) it has electromotive power we don't understand nor can replicate, it activates (11 coils in e.coli) each coil is in a azimuth sequence, may activate fwd and rev and varies speed at will, some types spin @ >1000, other's 100,000 rpm. To accomplish this a controller is involved to trigger the flow of protons in measured quantities to each coil. 11 X 100,000 = 1,100,000 pulses/min. Each coil seems to have a load sensor and then this controller(like any properly programmed PLC) applies more protons in STEP increments and can even switch between fwd/rev to get the creature unstuck, like rocking your car out of a ditch. It has a clutch. If you believe all that came about by mindless accidents and chance so be it. I tell you that's a "belief system based on faith", it's not scientific no matter how many biologists line up to say it is. So you have your chance, explain the load sensor and its evolution. Explain where each coil came from and got oriented, connected and decided it would be proton activated. Tell us how the controller got programmed, and on and on and on.

“ Knight Of Hyrule”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#104333 Nov 3, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I am not jumping to any conclusion. My conclusion is shared by the evolutionary researchers quoted. If you would like to contest that conclusion perhaps you could also provide some empirical research of your own, to support your opinion.
See!
"Abstract
The assumption that all life on Earth today shares the same basic molecular architecture and biochemistry is part of the paradigm of modern biology. This paper argues that there is little theoretical or empirical support for this widely held assumption."
Regardless of your opinion, the research clearly falsifies the current evolutionary paradigm, yet again, and supports the claim that there are no common ancestors between man and microbe.
That isn't what it's saying at all, you don't seem to be understanding what it is saying. It is saying there maybe unrecognized life that existed on early Earth and there could be "alien life" or what he is calling 'shadow microbes' that exist now , that we have not detected.
Being that we have discovered all types of microscopic life including extremophiles and unknown variants around ocean vents as well as the bacteria that can live in radioactive water and eat nuclear fuel rods.
I would have to agree. It also means life as we know it, may not have
have come from a single common ancestor.

It does NOT...

"Support the claim that there are no common ancestors between man and microbe."

It supports a claim of a possible..

Multiple origins of life, and the existence of unrecognized forms of microbial life.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Australia

#104334 Nov 3, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
A pleasant philosophic argument, but not a shred of evidence to refute what I presented from a science perspective, and the typical blame Behe wrap-up. So please elaborate on my "basic logical errors", you could even quote Berg from Harvard, who in one paper simply states the motor took "billions" of years to evolve, then skips the topic and gets into the science, that all? No mention how it evolved, its stages, not a thing, just this little disclaimer. I that enough? I think not, he doesn't want to go there, no way. Same from his Yale counterpart. So just follow that trail for a while and where does it lead? a talkorigins imposter. Like the cell, the more they research the more complicated these motors are found to be, then to the rescue commeth a cadre of laymen saying it evolved, with only words for evidence. To those of us on the technology side who have to apply intelligence to matter everyday too make a real living in the real world, the situation is obvious.
It's a proton powered motor that measures out protons by counts,(e.coli is 32) it has electromotive power we don't understand nor can replicate, it activates (11 coils in e.coli) each coil is in a azimuth sequence, may activate fwd and rev and varies speed at will, some types spin @ >1000, other's 100,000 rpm. To accomplish this a controller is involved to trigger the flow of protons in measured quantities to each coil. 11 X 100,000 = 1,100,000 pulses/min. Each coil seems to have a load sensor and then this controller(like any properly programmed PLC) applies more protons in STEP increments and can even switch between fwd/rev to get the creature unstuck, like rocking your car out of a ditch. It has a clutch. If you believe all that came about by mindless accidents and chance so be it. I tell you that's a "belief system based on faith", it's not scientific no matter how many biologists line up to say it is. So you have your chance, explain the load sensor and its evolution. Explain where each coil came from and got oriented, connected and decided it would be proton activated. Tell us how the controller got programmed, and on and on and on.
...and now it appears life's various motors may have originated off world.

"Given the profound philosophical and scientific importance that such a discovery would represent, a dedicated search for 'shadow microbes'(heretofore unrecognized 'alien' forms of terran microbial life) seems in order."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18053938

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#104335 Nov 3, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>That second link is to an abstract of a review paper. In the abstract in tells us that it will provide an overview of a number of components of bacterial physiology, genetics and structure including bacterial motility. Did you read the actual paper? Out of curiosity, what did you get from that reference that supports your position? We can't tell from our side, since it just says it will tell us all about it in the rest of the paper.
Another paper on how the flagellum senses load and changes speed. That doesn't say anything about the evolution of the flagellum. Another on nanotechnology modeled on the bacterial flagellum. Nothing there to support your point and no mention of evolution either.
No wonder you don't find papers including "evolution" and bacterial flagellar motor". You aren't looking for them.
I am having trouble finding a paper on the axial proton motor that mentions evolution these days. Seems to be a trend.

“ Knight Of Hyrule”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#104336 Nov 3, 2013
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I am not jumping to any conclusion. My conclusion is shared by the evolutionary researchers quoted. If you would like to contest that conclusion perhaps you could also provide some empirical research of your own, to support your opinion.
See!
"Abstract
The assumption that all life on Earth today shares the same basic molecular architecture and biochemistry is part of the paradigm of modern biology. This paper argues that there is little theoretical or empirical support for this widely held assumption."
Regardless of your opinion, the research clearly falsifies the current evolutionary paradigm, yet again, and supports the claim that there are no common ancestors between man and microbe.
He and his circle at Arizona State University, go a step further here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19292603

Astrobiologists are aware that extraterrestrial life might differ from known life, and considerable thought has been given to possible signatures associated with weird forms of life on other planets. So far, however, very little attention has been paid to the possibility that our own planet might also host communities of weird life. If life arises readily in Earth-like conditions, as many astrobiologists contend, then it may well have formed many times on Earth itself, which raises the question whether one or more shadow biospheres have existed in the past or still exist today. In this paper, we discuss possible signatures of weird life and outline some simple strategies for seeking evidence of a shadow biosphere.

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#104337 Nov 3, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
A pleasant philosophic argument, but not a shred of evidence to refute what I presented from a science perspective, and the typical blame Behe wrap-up. So please elaborate on my "basic logical errors", you could even quote Berg from Harvard, who in one paper simply states the motor took "billions" of years to evolve, then skips the topic and gets into the science, that all? No mention how it evolved, its stages, not a thing, just this little disclaimer. I that enough? I think not, he doesn't want to go there, no way. Same from his Yale counterpart. So just follow that trail for a while and where does it lead? a talkorigins imposter. Like the cell, the more they research the more complicated these motors are found to be, then to the rescue commeth a cadre of laymen saying it evolved, with only words for evidence. To those of us on the technology side who have to apply intelligence to matter everyday too make a real living in the real world, the situation is obvious.
It's a proton powered motor that measures out protons by counts,(e.coli is 32) it has electromotive power we don't understand nor can replicate, it activates (11 coils in e.coli) each coil is in a azimuth sequence, may activate fwd and rev and varies speed at will, some types spin @ >1000, other's 100,000 rpm. To accomplish this a controller is involved to trigger the flow of protons in measured quantities to each coil. 11 X 100,000 = 1,100,000 pulses/min. Each coil seems to have a load sensor and then this controller(like any properly programmed PLC) applies more protons in STEP increments and can even switch between fwd/rev to get the creature unstuck, like rocking your car out of a ditch. It has a clutch. If you believe all that came about by mindless accidents and chance so be it. I tell you that's a "belief system based on faith", it's not scientific no matter how many biologists line up to say it is. So you have your chance, explain the load sensor and its evolution. Explain where each coil came from and got oriented, connected and decided it would be proton activated. Tell us how the controller got programmed, and on and on and on.
A long winded response replete with many bales of straw. You spend a lot of time trying to overwhelm your audience with terminology and concepts related to motors. You use acronyms that you don't define as if everyone should know what they mean. You are really doing that to add more confusion. This is just a puffed up version of your argument from incredulity.

Behe has been shown to be wrong. Why not mention that since he is the author of the very concept you are supporting through misleading and intentionally confusing rambles.

It isn't a belief system. It is based on facts. That we may not have all the facts for every step, doesn't change that. Real research on the evolution of the bacterial flagellar motor have been provided to you by a number of people. That you continue to fail to mention this is testament to the charade you are perpetuating.

You may know more about electric motors than the rest of us. Maybe not. I don't know, but that doesn't have anything to do with refuting the evolution of this structure through random mutation and nonrandom natural selection.

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