Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Read more

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#101040 Oct 12, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> They are steering by shifting weight, this is a small degree of the large weight shifts you can do standing on the pegs.
What you are talking about, is using the momentum of the bike by counter steering. I'm telling you you can do the same thing by shifting your mass alone. I'm not arguing like a creationist.
I'm telling you how I learned to ride. You are telling me it's impossible, but I just showed you steering can be done to a small degree without using the bars at all, but by shifting weight.
And that shifting weight alot will do the same thing as counter steering, which is simply changing the bikes center of gravity to your advantage. You then counter steer to get even tighter angles
between you and the road. Besides the fact we aren't arguing , we are debating and have a difference of opinion. That's all heheheh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =3OBn2jyEREEXX
I know how they are steering.

And yes you are arguing like a creationist. You have supplied no real evidence that supports your claims. The videos you have supplied are not clear enough to show a lack of countersteering. See if you can find any sort of scientific or official paper on the subject. Even no handed steering is done with countersteering.

It is a subtle but extremely important part of starting a turn. To start any turn on a bike the first motion is a countersteering motion.

I have seen biker after biker make your claim, but when push comes to shove they all realize that turns are started by contersteering.

“Move into the light.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#101041 Oct 12, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>I know how they are steering.
And yes you are arguing like a creationist. You have supplied no real evidence that supports your claims. The videos you have supplied are not clear enough to show a lack of countersteering. See if you can find any sort of scientific or official paper on the subject. Even no handed steering is done with countersteering.
It is a subtle but extremely important part of starting a turn. To start any turn on a bike the first motion is a countersteering motion.
I have seen biker after biker make your claim, but when push comes to shove they all realize that turns are started by contersteering.
It is also important to distinguish between counter steering as a physical phenomenon and deliberate countersteering as a conscious rider technique for initiating a lean (the usual interpretation of the term). The physical phenomenon always occurs in any cornering manoeuvre at more than walking pace and is also evident in situations where the bike and rider compensate for some outside influence such as an opportune side wind, although at low speeds it can be lost or hidden in the minute corrections made to maintain balance. The technique of exploiting the physical phenomenon by deliberately countering the steering is achieved by applying a steering torque in the opposite direction of the road curve. For example, if a turn to the left is desired, it is started by an applying a torque on the handlebars to the right. It is important to note that the rider is not causing counter steering, merely initiating it at a time of their choosing. Another way to cause the bike and rider to lean is by applying appropriate torques between the bike and rider similar to the way a gymnast can swing up from hanging straight down on uneven parallel bars, a person can start swinging on a swing from rest by pumping their legs, or a double inverted pendulum can be controlled with an actuator only at the elbow.[5]

*At the same time, the rider technique of applying pressure to the handlebars to initiate a lean is not always necessary, since, on a sufficiently light bike (especially a bicycle), the rider can initiate a lean and turn by shifting body weight, called counter-lean by some authors.[6][7][8] Documented physical experimentation shows that on heavy bikes (many motorcycles) shifting body weight is less effective at initiating leans.[9]

***This technique works by employing the natural tendency of most bikes to steer towards the direction they are leaned and is different from the acrobatic maneuver described above. Note that when applying a counter-lean technique, the counter steering as a physical phenomenon still occurs, the manner in which it is initiated by the rider is different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#101042 Oct 12, 2013
All you had to do was to copy this sentence from that article:
How it works[edit]

A single-track vehicle such as a bicycle or a motorcycle is an inverted pendulum—it will fall over unless balanced.
The technique used by cyclists and motorcyclists to initiate turning in a given direction is to first apply a steering torque in the opposite direction. For example, if a turn to the left is desired, it is started by applying a torque on the handlebars to the right. This causes the front wheel to rotate about the steering axis to the right and the front tire will generate forces in the contact patch to the right. The machine as a whole steers to the right briefly, and because the forces in the contact patch are at ground level, this pulls the wheels "out from under" the bike to the right and causes it to lean to the left. Then the rider, or in most cases, the inherent stability of the bike provides the steering torque necessary to rotate the front wheel back to the left and in the direction of the desired turn. Finally, the bike begins a turn to the left.[11] It is often boiled down to "push left to go left".
While this appears to be a complex sequence of motions, it is performed by every child who rides a bicycle. The entire sequence goes largely unnoticed by most riders, which is why some assert that they do not do it.
Please note the last sentence.

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101043 Oct 12, 2013
C'mon people. It is just a simple bicycle that everyone of you knew exactly how it worked. Not so simple anymore is it. It depends on what you read and what you believe. Like it or not the answer is "they don't exactly know". They have many theories, but nothing exact as of today. LOL

“Move into the light.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#101044 Oct 12, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
By the way, if you are changing from one turn to another you are already countersteering by definition.
What some bikers do unfortunately in emergency situations is to turn the bike to the left when they want to go left without countersteering to the right first. At speeds the motion is subtle, it becomes an automatic part of setting up a turn. I found several articles on why countersteering is a must. Some from motorcycle safety organizations. I have not seen any that claim you can turn without countersteering.
Well I admit the definition is including things I never considered as being counter steering as well as it may play more a role than I was consciously was aware of. But I do know the technique as employed in conscious counter steering, I just never associated the two together.

“Move into the light.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#101045 Oct 12, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
All you had to do was to copy this sentence from that article:
<quoted text>
Please note the last sentence.
OK you win, everything says that regardless the method employed
to initiate the lean in a curve, that counter steering occurs.
I can't argue with that, it just wasn't my intuition of it.

“Move into the light.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#101046 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
C'mon people. It is just a simple bicycle that everyone of you knew exactly how it worked. Not so simple anymore is it. It depends on what you read and what you believe. Like it or not the answer is "they don't exactly know". They have many theories, but nothing exact as of today. LOL
No it seems to have to do with the geometry of two wheels.
It's something I never thought about so like all the others like me
I said I don't do that. But I did do that, but didn't know it.

I guess that's arguing like a creationist.

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101047 Oct 12, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
By the way, if you are changing from one turn to another you are already countersteering by definition.
What some bikers do unfortunately in emergency situations is to turn the bike to the left when they want to go left without countersteering to the right first. At speeds the motion is subtle, it becomes an automatic part of setting up a turn. I found several articles on why countersteering is a must. Some from motorcycle safety organizations. I have not seen any that claim you can turn without countersteering.
Sub your cause is because of centrifugal force. Like when you are driving a car and turn sharp left it throws your body to the right.

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101048 Oct 12, 2013
But lets take away the rider, the weight shifting and the rider balance and just have a bike by itself and TADA, the bike will still go on upright and counter itself as long as it is up at a certain speed.

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101049 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
But lets take away the rider, the weight shifting and the rider balance and just have a bike by itself and TADA, the bike will still go on upright and counter itself as long as it is up at a certain speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =9ewqeheLL_IXX
Oh be sure to notice the bike even made a jump and still kept going by itself.

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#101050 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
But lets take away the rider, the weight shifting and the rider balance and just have a bike by itself and TADA, the bike will still go on upright and counter itself as long as it is up at a certain speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =9ewqeheLL_IXX
for a certain period, as long as it is a balanced bike and doesn't hit any bumps and is ona level area...

again one can balance ona bike without even moving. it is the rider that balances a bike, not some mystery...

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#101051 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
C'mon people. It is just a simple bicycle that everyone of you knew exactly how it worked. Not so simple anymore is it. It depends on what you read and what you believe. Like it or not the answer is "they don't exactly know". They have many theories, but nothing exact as of today. LOL
you already know. it is the rider that balances the bike.

you seem to have trouble accepting answers that don't fit what you wish were true...

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101052 Oct 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text> you already know. it is the rider that balances the bike.
you seem to have trouble accepting answers that don't fit what you wish were true...
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>for a certain period, as long as it is a balanced bike and doesn't hit any bumps and is ona level area...
again one can balance ona bike without even moving. it is the rider that balances a bike, not some mystery...
In the video the bike turns, it jumps a dirt hump, it is on a un-level dirt track and still keeps on going. Oh and most importantly,,, there is no rider on it. So try again little tick. LOL

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101053 Oct 12, 2013
WOW look at the judgits jump when tick comes on. We know tick it isn't you it is the one armed man. LMAO

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#101054 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
In the video the bike turns, it jumps a dirt hump, it is on a un-level dirt track and still keeps on going. Oh and most importantly,,, there is no rider on it. So try again little tick. LOL
a well balanced bike...

could you get a bike to do that?

ever drop a coin and whathc it roll a seeminglyimposssible distance before falling over? what magic is that?

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101055 Oct 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>a well balanced bike...
could you get a bike to do that?
ever drop a coin and whathc it roll a seeminglyimposssible distance before falling over? what magic is that?
I know. It was a ghost rider doing it right. LOL

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#101056 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
WOW look at the judgits jump when tick comes on. We know tick it isn't you it is the one armed man. LMAO
never used one of them even once...

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#101057 Oct 12, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I know. It was a ghost rider doing it right. LOL
you can get barrel hoops to roll a long way also...what magic is that?

“If It Is Possible”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

It Will Likely Happen

#101058 Oct 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>never used one of them even once...
We believe you tick (snicker). It was the one armed man right? He just gives them to people who don't agree with you. LMFAO

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#101059 Oct 12, 2013
i bet the sumerians got the magic to balance bikes when the UFOs braught them watches and elephants from the americas...

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