Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
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94,861 - 94,880 of 115,343 Comments Last updated 11 min ago
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#100390 Oct 2, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I quit reading with the above. I would say are you fricking nuts but of course you are. Science has never ever worked by predictions. Where in the *ell did you come up with that BS? If science worked by predictions it would never advance because predictions are made without doing any research, you know like 'looking' for something to substantiate a theory you have? A prediction is a thought said as a statement of something that will take place in the future. Science is based on what has already taken place in the past so to prove a theory of what is thought to have taken place or is taking place.
Science is an idea and than comes observations, questions, inspections, analyzations, testing and researching etc to prove or disprove that idea.
lol...and you claim I don't know how science works...lol...to funny dude.
Okay, this is just so daft I may just have to skip the rebut and just go fetch a kitten instead.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#100391 Oct 2, 2013
SCOUSE71UK wrote:
Some people on here keep linking Atheism on here with a belief in Darwinism or the big bang theory when atheism can exist without the need to believe in either theory.
I'm an atheist and I don't believe in creationism,Darwinism the big bang theory or any religion or religious book.
You went to Bluecoats, didn't you.

:-/
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#100392 Oct 2, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
According to what's in the Bible, it's God instituted a thing called "free will" when it came to choosing to obey and or disobey.
No he didn't.

You were conned and you bought it.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#100393 Oct 2, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lol.....really? Where did you get that crap? Where did you read a global flood would cause the loss of all life? An extremist, that's where you got that crap from.
I'll give you this exception to prove your crap point. If you can show proof that if the world flooded itself every single inch would have to be superheated beyond any known measure to kill all life you have grounds for your point.
But you have no point. Volcanic action not resulting in great heat can and has pushed ocean/sea floors to sea levels without killing all existing life. Then you have to deal with the fact that mud/silt itself sustains life in seawater and freshwater in cold and super heated water environments. Just saying.
Who's talking about plain old volcanism? I'm not. If you're looking for extremism I'm afraid that's only found in your position. That uh, IS why YOUR position is what's known as "fundamentalism", remember?

You are claiming that literally BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of tons of water is all moving simultaneously world-wide non-stop in the absolute total mother of storms to end all storms. This lasted (if you recall) for forty days and nights. And from there the waters did not recede for another minimum of 6 to 12 months. The height of the water has to reach a minimum of 5135 meters, or just over 17,000 feet - the height of Ararat. Now a fridge filled with water weighs roughly 1 ton. Your average fridge is just less than a meter square but over a meter tall so for simplicity let's go with a reasonable approximation of 1 meter cubed. And the water level needs to increase by over 128 meters per day. That's over 5 meters per hour. Nearly 9cm a minute. To put this in perspective it's around 15 times the largest recorded rainfall ever, and that was obviously only a local area. In your case you are claiming that 1 ton of mass is falling from the sky every 12 minutes for each square meter continuously non-stop for 40 days over the entire surface of the Earth (510 square kilometers). That's a LOT of mass. And bear in mind also that as we learned some days earlier outer circles are larger than inner circles so the surface area increases which will mean you will need to increase the rate of falling mass in order to still reach your target of Ararat's height, for which I'm being generous here since I'm not even taking Everest into account which of course would only heat things up even more. All of this water is somehow being pressurised inside underground caverns via world-wide volcanism beneath the upper layers of the crust. This is then shooting up into the sky and eventually falling back down. The pressure would have to be quite astounding and in fact this alone would create so much heat that the water would be turned to steam (gas expands) and boom. The upper crust of the Earth (everywhere) is blowing up. World War 3 doesn't cover it, but I suppose you've gotta get all that water in the air somehow. Apparently Noah's dinky wooden boat is floating above this and is only made of wood. I'm not sure if everyone remembers the recent xmas tsunami in the Indian Ocean which left massive ships made of metal with massive gashes in the sides of their hulls. And I haven't even taken Walt Brown's laughable claims into account whereby all the solar system's asteroids and comets also came from the same 'Fountains of the Deep', which would mean lots more pressure (and accompanying heat) in order for this mass to reach Earth's escape velocity.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#100394 Oct 2, 2013
That was just the problems with the idea of the waters coming from below. And I didn't even bother mentioning massive geological shifting from moving landmasses which may or may not have taken place as creationist descriptions are unfortunately too ambiguous to put any numbers to, but suffice to say that building mountains as big as Ararat or Everest in a mere 40 days is not exactly gonna be a non-violent event. Meanwhile here it is if the water came from the top, thanks to some elucidation from the good Rev Lenny Flank:

http://www.huecotanks.com/debunk/flood.htm

Then there is the problems with "fossil sorting", with intact fossils somehow forced inside solid rock:

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/worldwid...

And then we have the problems that arise from the point of view of genetics. Keep in mind that the same applies to each and every animal on the Ark too, as there was only one of each "kind":

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/...

So your position is that maybe physics itself got magically suspended just so we can have a global flood to justify the accuracy of the Bible and invisible Jewish magic despite zero evidence to support the claim. My position is that it simply didn't happen and that AT BEST it's a story that came out of real life large flooding events from the end of the last ice age.

So considering my position does NOT destroy life in multiple different ways, NO, mine is NOT the "extreme" position.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#100396 Oct 3, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Who's talking about plain old volcanism? I'm not. If you're looking for extremism I'm afraid that's only found in your position. That uh, IS why YOUR position is what's known as "fundamentalism", remember?
You are claiming that literally BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of tons of water is all moving simultaneously world-wide non-stop in the absolute total mother of storms to end all storms. This lasted (if you recall) for forty days and nights. And from there the waters did not recede for another minimum of 6 to 12 months. The height of the water has to reach a minimum of 5135 meters, or just over 17,000 feet - the height of Ararat. Now a fridge filled with water weighs roughly 1 ton. Your average fridge is just less than a meter square but over a meter tall so for simplicity let's go with a reasonable approximation of 1 meter cubed. And the water level needs to increase by over 128 meters per day. That's over 5 meters per hour. Nearly 9cm a minute. To put this in perspective it's around 15 times the largest recorded rainfall ever, and that was obviously only a local area. In your case you are claiming that 1 ton of mass is falling from the sky every 12 minutes for each square meter continuously non-stop for 40 days over the entire surface of the Earth (510 square kilometers). That's a LOT of mass. And bear in mind also that as we learned some days earlier outer circles are larger than inner circles so the surface area increases which will mean you will need to increase the rate of falling mass in order to still reach your target of Ararat's height, for which I'm being generous here since I'm not even taking Everest into account which of course would only heat things up even more. All of this water is somehow being pressurised inside underground caverns via world-wide volcanism beneath the upper layers of the crust. This is then shooting up into the sky and eventually falling back down. The pressure would have to be quite astounding and in fact this alone would create so much heat that the water would be turned to steam (gas expands) and boom. The upper crust of the Earth (everywhere) is blowing up. World War 3 doesn't cover it, but I suppose you've gotta get all that water in the air somehow. Apparently Noah's dinky wooden boat is floating above this and is only made of wood. I'm not sure if everyone remembers the recent xmas tsunami in the Indian Ocean which left massive ships made of metal with massive gashes in the sides of their hulls. And I haven't even taken Walt Brown's laughable claims into account whereby all the solar system's asteroids and comets also came from the same 'Fountains of the Deep', which would mean lots more pressure (and accompanying heat) in order for this mass to reach Earth's escape velocity.
And by contrast the animals are all lining up carefully to die in just the right order to fool us into thinking there was an evolution ary progression. No horses, monkeys, flowers, or pigeions in the lower layers. The mammal like reptiles with transitional jawbone to ear bones lying precisely only in strata before all the true mammals but after the early true reptiles etc etc.

How on earth did they manage to achieve this paragon of order when the entire crust was being oulverised? Only creatards understand these mysterious secrets.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#100397 Oct 3, 2013
SCOUSE71UK wrote:
Some people on here keep linking Atheism on here with a belief in Darwinism or the big bang theory when atheism can exist without the need to believe in either theory.
I'm an atheist and I don't believe in creationism,Darwinism the big bang theory or any religion or religious book.
I believe we will never know if any of the above theories are true and all have been used to defend the bigotry of various people.

.
I believe you identify yourself as a closet creationist or deliberately ignorant (same thing really) by specifying Darwinism. The concept of evolution has been around for at least 2500 years longer than Darwin’s publication and like just about every other aspect of science it has progressed quite a long way in the last 150 years. This of course never stops creations harping on about it. You would never find an so atheist so hung up on one guys 150 years old ideas.

DNA and the genetic code show evolution as fact. Note, DNA is something that even the most ardent creationist and objector to evolution is quite happy to use with 100% certainty in condemning a person to a crime and even to execution. Go figure…

The fossil record is evidence of the smooth and gradual transition from the simplest life form to today’s complex life and it also has the added bonus of validating the DNA evidence. The geological column validates the fossil record etc...

There are several other concepts that validate evolution and there are cases where science is at this moment observing actual generational change in specific breeds of animal.

The big bang has fewer indicators than evolution however there is evidence in the red shift of galaxies. That evidence suggests that approximately 13.7 billion years in the past all the mass of this universe was a single point. Modern mathematics and other branches of science such as cosmology and particle physics have independently confirmed this.

Then we have the CMB, Cosmic Microwave Background. The BB theory predicts that the CMB should exists and the WMAP satellite measured it, thus validating the theory.

Note, not relevant to this discussion, but while on the subject of the CMB there are also indicators in the CMB to suggest that our universe is not the only universe and that our universe is spatially infinite, this is another go figure…

The mixture of elements in the universe can only have been created as a consequence of the big bang. The first few atoms (Hydrogen to Lithium) created in the massive heat and pressure of the aftermath of the event and the other lighter elements in starts, heavier elements created in collapsing stars and supernovas.

So, we do know evolution is true and are as sure as is possible to be without actually witnessing it that the BB is true., the problem you show is that you are not willing to believe fact.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#100398 Oct 3, 2013
SCOUSE71UK wrote:
Some people on here keep linking Atheism on here with a belief in Darwinism or the big bang theory when atheism can exist without the need to believe in either theory.
I'm an atheist and I don't believe in creationism,Darwinism the big bang theory or any religion or religious book.
I believe we will never know if any of the above theories are true and all have been used to defend the bigotry of various people.
The bible as been used to promote child abuse and racism by various people. There have been scandals from just about every religion of the leaders of those faiths committing crimes against children and it being covered up. Religion as been used by some to defend wars such as the crusades.
So what does that say about religion?
If you have any sense you will realise it does not say anything about religion. It speaks only of the twisted mind of the individual who uses religion but would also use anything available to defend them perpetrating their twisted desires and forcing them on others.
In the same way it is wrong to believe that all atheists use these examples as a way of attacking religion or that all atheists have the need to attack religion or force their ideas of their being no god onto others. By the same token not all people of a faith have the desire to convert others to their faith.
I believe that we can debate things and put our opinions across and the problems arise when we personally attack others for their views or try to brain wash others to our way of thinking.
Bigotry is when we try to assign values to a group of people because no group of people no matter how small will ever have all the same values.
It is not religion or atheism at fault but the individual using them to promote their own prejudices.
You make some good points.

Just remember a good scientist does not "believe in" anything. He expresses a degree of confidence based on the evidence.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#100401 Oct 3, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Who's talking about plain old volcanism? I'm not. If you're looking for extremism I'm afraid that's only found in your position. That uh, IS why YOUR position is what's known as "fundamentalism", remember?
You are claiming that literally BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of tons of water is all moving simultaneously world-wide non-stop in the absolute total mother of storms to end all storms. This lasted (if you recall) for forty days and nights. And from there the waters did not recede for another minimum of 6 to 12 months. The height of the water has to reach a minimum of 5135 meters, or just over 17,000 feet - the height of Ararat. Now a fridge filled with water weighs roughly 1 ton. Your average fridge is just less than a meter square but over a meter tall so for simplicity let's go with a reasonable approximation of 1 meter cubed. And the water level needs to increase by over 128 meters per day. That's over 5 meters per hour. Nearly 9cm a minute. To put this in perspective it's around 15 times the largest recorded rainfall ever, and that was obviously only a local area. In your case you are claiming that 1 ton of mass is falling from the sky every 12 minutes for each square meter continuously non-stop for 40 days over the entire surface of the Earth (510 square kilometers). That's a LOT of mass. And bear in mind also that as we learned some days earlier outer circles are larger than inner circles so the surface area increases which will mean you will need to increase the rate of falling mass in order to still reach your target of Ararat's height, for which I'm being generous here since I'm not even taking Everest into account which of course would only heat things up even more. All of this water is somehow being pressurised inside underground caverns via world-wide volcanism beneath the upper layers of the crust. This is then shooting up into the sky and eventually falling back down. The pressure would have to be quite astounding and in fact this alone would create so much heat that the water would be turned to steam (gas expands) and boom. The upper crust of the Earth (everywhere) is blowing up. World War 3 doesn't cover it, but I suppose you've gotta get all that water in the air somehow. Apparently Noah's dinky wooden boat is floating above this and is only made of wood. I'm not sure if everyone remembers the recent xmas tsunami in the Indian Ocean which left massive ships made of metal with massive gashes in the sides of their hulls. And I haven't even taken Walt Brown's laughable claims into account whereby all the solar system's asteroids and comets also came from the same 'Fountains of the Deep', which would mean lots more pressure (and accompanying heat) in order for this mass to reach Earth's escape velocity.
510 MILLION square kilometers

you forgot a few zeros

:)
Huh

Owatonna, MN

#100402 Oct 3, 2013
If some god is real..HE IS AN IDIOT. What a messed up dump this god made.

Now we all know there is no god or supreme being..JUST A SIMPLE FACT.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#100403 Oct 3, 2013
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>510 MILLION square kilometers
you forgot a few zeros
:)
Yes. Any idea how much of that area is covered by massive volcanic formations like the Deccan and Siberian traps? Millions of square km.

If those outpourings had occured in a few short years, even the 6000 or so since the supposed creation, we would all be dead from the gases alone.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#100405 Oct 3, 2013
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>510 MILLION square kilometers
you forgot a few zeros
:)
Whoops, I certainly did!

:-/

That is what I meant of course.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#100406 Oct 3, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Who's talking about plain old volcanism? I'm not. If you're looking for extremism I'm afraid that's only found in your position. That uh, IS why YOUR position is what's known as "fundamentalism", remember?
...(shortened for brevity)
All good points, but one additional;
Where did all this water come from? I could do the math to figure out exactly how much water we're talking about here, but I do not want exert my brain. I can safely conclude however that there would be far more water necessary to cover the globe to such mountain-top heights than the actual planet could hold, within it and around it combined. So a little question of where did this water come from arises. Also, where does it go afterwards? If they can reasonably answer just those 2 simple questions, I'll let all the other doubts go like repopulation scenarios, species regeneration and diversity explanations, Man's evolution in such a short amount of time, etc.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#100407 Oct 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
"I believe you identify yourself as a closet creationist or deliberately ignorant (same thing really) by specifying Darwinism"
Certainly a candidate for Comment of the Week Award!

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#100408 Oct 3, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Whoops, I certainly did!
:-/
That is what I meant of course.
Of that, I had no doubt

“Incorrupta fides, nudaque veri”

Level 9

Since: May 07

Vincit qui se vincit

#100409 Oct 3, 2013
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>510 MILLION square kilometers
you forgot a few zeros
:)
RUSH Rocks!

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#100410 Oct 3, 2013
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
All good points, but one additional;
Where did all this water come from? I could do the math to figure out exactly how much water we're talking about here, but I do not want exert my brain. I can safely conclude however that there would be far more water necessary to cover the globe to such mountain-top heights than the actual planet could hold, within it and around it combined. So a little question of where did this water come from arises. Also, where does it go afterwards? If they can reasonably answer just those 2 simple questions, I'll let all the other doubts go like repopulation scenarios, species regeneration and diversity explanations, Man's evolution in such a short amount of time, etc.
I did the approximate maths some years ago.

It went something like this.

Subtract the volume of a sphere the diameter of earth from the volume of a sphere the diameter of earth plus 18km. Twice the height of Everest (give or take).

1087803985034 cubic km minus 1083206916846 cubic km = 4597068188 cubic km

Subtract and arbitrary amount (say 1/3) of the result from the result to account for hills/mountains, land mass above sea level.

4597068188 – 1532356062 = 3064712126 cubic km of water

that’s

306471212600000000000000000000 0 litres which is a close approximation of the water needed to cover the surface of the earth to above the depth of the highest mountain.

Now consider that less than 25% of the world is covered with water to an average depth of 800 metres. With the rivers, lakes, aquifers etc that’s about

1482000000000000000000 litres

There are a lot of zeros unaccounted for in the babble

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#100411 Oct 3, 2013
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
Certainly a candidate for Comment of the Week Award!
Cheers.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#100412 Oct 3, 2013
Ricky F wrote:
<quoted text>RUSH Rocks!
Agreed!!!

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#100413 Oct 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
I did the approximate maths some years ago.
It went something like this.
Subtract the volume of a sphere the diameter of earth from the volume of a sphere the diameter of earth plus 18km. Twice the height of Everest (give or take).
1087803985034 cubic km minus 1083206916846 cubic km = 4597068188 cubic km
Subtract and arbitrary amount (say 1/3) of the result from the result to account for hills/mountains, land mass above sea level.
4597068188 – 1532356062 = 3064712126 cubic km of water
that’s
306471212600000000000000000000 0 litres which is a close approximation of the water needed to cover the surface of the earth to above the depth of the highest mountain.
Now consider that less than 25% of the world is covered with water to an average depth of 800 metres. With the rivers, lakes, aquifers etc that’s about
1482000000000000000000 litres
There are a lot of zeros unaccounted for in the babble
Put another way in perspective, water is 0.02% of Earths mass. It only seems to be alot because it's all on the surface, but it's really kinda rare, here even though there is massive amounts in the universe. Ours came from comets, those icy rocks in space.

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