Evolution vs. Creation

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“Happiness comes through giving”

Level 7

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#99956 Sep 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Complete nonsense. Some form of abiogenesis is what most scientists in the field accept, although the details are still being worked out and we don't yet have a complete explanation or THEORY like we do for the subsequent evolution of species.
<quoted text>
Lying Christian BS and wishful thinking.
<quoted text>
Darwin wrote in 1865, LONG before we have computers, DNA, and kind of biochemical science, etc. We've come a long way since then.
<quoted text>
Science is not about "belief," but about having evidence for a proposition and accepting that evidence. We have a lot of evidence for abiogenesis so far, and NONE for the magical "Poofing!" of instant special creation as Christians allege.
So forgive us if we stick with the evidence and follow it wherever it leads.
To just "believe," essentially because Mommy and Daddy and Pastor Billy Bob SAY so, strikes me as WAY MORE than a little bit smug.
I'll ignore your patronizing tone and refer you to a paper by Jerry Bergman titled, "Why the Miller-Urey Research Argues Against Abiogenesis". I am aware that Bergman's work is not without its critics, but I find his work very persuasive.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#99957 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>I'll ignore your patronizing tone and refer you to a paper by Jerry Bergman titled, "Why the Miller-Urey Research Argues Against Abiogenesis". I am aware that Bergman's work is not without its critics, but I find his work very persuasive.
Bergman?!?!

*THIS* Bergman?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jerry_Bergman

Gerald R.“Jerry” Bergman is a young earth creationist affiliated with the Institute for Creation Research, as well as a signatory to the CMI list of scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation. He has a doctorate in human biology from Columbia Pacific University, a nonaccredited correspondence school that was ordered to cease operations in California in 1999 by the Marin County Superior Court.[2] Bergman is a prolific writer with, according to Answers in Genesis, over 600 articles (none in peer-refereed scientific journals, of course,[3] but quite a few for Answers Research Journal) and 20 books to his name.

He considers himself one of the victims of persecution by "Darwinists", after he was denied tenure and dismissed from Bowling Green State University in 1978 “solely because of my beliefs and publications in the area of creationism”. He attempted, unsuccessfully, to take the university to court over religious discrimination.(It should be added that in a signed letter published in David Duke's National Association of White People newsletter, he stated that “reverse racial discrimination was clearly part of the decision,” so even according to himself it cannot have been solely because of his religious beliefs.[4]) According to the courts, however, Bergman was terminated because of ethics, namely that he claimed to have credentials in psychology when, in fact, he “had no psychological credentials.”[5]

Bergman is known to be a rather skilled at public debates, where he can Gish gallop at will and opponents don’t have the time or opportunity to debunk all of his claims, misrepresentations, and fundamental misunderstandings.

One of Bergman’s favorite tactics is to redefine words. For instance, Bergman claims that he has scientifically proven that there is no such thing as vestigial organs, therefore evolution is false. He accomplished this by redefining “vestigial” to mean “having no function at all”; thus, all he had to do was to demonstrate that alleged vestigial organs did or potentially did anything whatsoever.[6] Of course, this is not the definition of “vestigial”. That did not prevent Bergman from writing a book about it (with George Howe).

Bergman has predictably enough argued that evolution leads to Hitler.[7] In fact, one of his primary debate tactics is character-assassination of Darwin[8]. According to Bergman,“Charles Darwin’s major goal in developing his theory was religious, he wanted to “murder” god (his words).” The passage in which Darwin talked about “murder” is this:

At last gleams of light have come, & I am almost convinced (quite contrary to opinion I started with) that species are not (it is like confessing a murder) immutable.

It doesn’t quite appear to say what Bergman thinks it says. Among other things Bergman attributes to Darwin are:
He was active in “converting” all he could to his theory of origins.
Darwin plagiarized most of his major ideas.
Darwin was a racist of the worst kind and believed the lower races (the blacks) would go extinct.
Darwin was opposed to helping the sick, but realized this idea would not go over well.
Darwin felt a wife was better than a dog (really!).
He was severely mentally and physically ill, likely an agoraphobic.
As a young man he was sadistic and loved to kill animals with anything he had: guns, sticks, even hammers!

His evidence for these claims is based on, shall we say, unconventional interpretations of passages from Darwin; and in addition, even if these claims were true, it is hard to see how they would undermine the scientific theory of evolution.

<END>

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99958 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>I'll ignore your patronizing tone and refer you to a paper by Jerry Bergman titled, "Why the Miller-Urey Research Argues Against Abiogenesis". I am aware that Bergman's work is not without its critics, but I find his work very persuasive.
Sure... it's persuasive for people looking for anything they can to support their unsupportable religious claims.

From RationalWiki:

"Gerald R.“Jerry” Bergman is a young earth creationist affiliated with the Institute for Creation Research, as well as a signatory to the CMI list of scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation. He has a doctorate in human biology from Columbia Pacific University, a nonaccredited correspondence school that was ordered to cease operations in California in 1999 by the Marin County Superior Court."

Yeah... I'm sure he's a stellar example of the honesty/integrity of a typical creationists.

(yes... that last line is dripping with sarcasm)

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#99959 Sep 24, 2013
HA! Beat ya to it, Terry!
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#99960 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>I'll ignore your patronizing tone and refer you to a paper by Jerry Bergman titled, "Why the Miller-Urey Research Argues Against Abiogenesis". I am aware that Bergman's work is not without its critics, but I find his work very persuasive.
He is a fundamentalist Christian Young Earth Creationist.

We completely dismiss his crackpot ideas, which are based on the need to do fundie Christian APOLOGETICS, NOT to do actual SCIENCE.

Is Bergman what you meant when you made the grandiose nonsense claim that "Scientists today are running away from abiogenesis theory like mad"?

Because you'll have to do a WHOLE LOT better than that to demonstrate your silly claim.

"Scientists Close to Reconstructing First Living Cell
Researchers get genetic material to copy itself in a recreation of a simple protocell that could have existed eons ago"
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm...

"Scientists create tiny RNA molecule with big implications for life's origins"
http://www.physorg.com/news186071435.html

“Happiness comes through giving”

Level 7

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#99961 Sep 24, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Bergman?!?!
*THIS* Bergman?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jerry_Bergman
Gerald R.“Jerry” Bergman is a young earth creationist affiliated with the Institute for Creation Research, as well as a signatory to the CMI list of scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation. He has a doctorate in human biology from Columbia Pacific University, a nonaccredited correspondence school that was ordered to cease operations in California in 1999 by the Marin County Superior Court.[2] Bergman is a prolific writer with, according to Answers in Genesis, over 600 articles (none in peer-refereed scientific journals, of course,[3] but quite a few for Answers Research Journal) and 20 books to his name.
He considers himself one of the victims of persecution by "Darwinists", after he was denied tenure and dismissed from Bowling Green State University in 1978 “solely because of my beliefs and publications in the area of creationism”. He attempted, unsuccessfully, to take the university to court over religious discrimination.(It should be added that in a signed letter published in David Duke's National Association of White People newsletter, he stated that “reverse racial discrimination was clearly part of the decision,” so even according to himself it cannot have been solely because of his religious beliefs.[4]) According to the courts, however, Bergman was terminated because of ethics, namely that he claimed to have credentials in psychology when, in fact, he “had no psychological credentials.”[5]
Bergman is known to be a rather skilled at public debates, where he can Gish gallop at will and opponents don’t have the time or opportunity to debunk all of his claims, misrepresentations, and fundamental misunderstandings.
One of Bergman’s favorite tactics is to redefine words. For instance, Bergman claims that he has scientifically proven that there is no such thing as vestigial organs, therefore evolution is false. He accomplished this by redefining “vestigial” to mean “having no function at all”; thus, all he had to do was to demonstrate that alleged vestigial organs did or potentially did anything whatsoever.[6] Of course, this is not the definition of “vestigial”. That did not prevent Bergman from writing a book about it (with George Howe).
Bergman has predictably enough argued that evolution leads to Hitler.[7] In fact, one of his primary debate tactics is character-assassination of Darwin[8]. According to Bergman,“Charles Darwin’s major goal in developing his theory was religious, he wanted to “murder” god (his words).” The passage in which Darwin talked about “murder” is this:
At last gleams of light have come, & I am almost convinced (quite contrary to opinion I started with) that species are not (it is like confessing a murder) immutable.
It doesn’t quite appear to say what Bergman thinks it says. Among other things Bergman attributes to Darwin are:
He was active in “converting” all he could to his theory of origins.
Darwin plagiarized most of his major ideas.
Darwin was a racist of the worst kind and believed the lower races (the blacks) would go extinct.
Darwin was opposed to helping the sick, but realized this idea would not go over well.
Darwin felt a wife was better than a dog (really!).
He was severely mentally and physically ill, likely an agoraphobic.
As a young man he was sadistic and loved to kill animals with anything he had: guns, sticks, even hammers!
His evidence for these claims is based on, shall we say, unconventional interpretations of passages from Darwin; and in addition, even if these claims were true, it is hard to see how they would undermine the scientific theory of evolution.
<END>
Yes, that Bergman. Where Bergman and I part company is that I do not accept the biblical account of creation. But I also do not accept abiogenesis as an explanation of how we got here.

Of course the ultimate question is how anything got here, organic or not.

“Happiness comes through giving”

Level 7

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#99962 Sep 24, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Bergman?!?!
*THIS* Bergman?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jerry_Bergman
Gerald R.“Jerry” Bergman is a young earth creationist affiliated with the Institute for Creation Research, as well as a signatory to the CMI list of scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation. He has a doctorate in human biology from Columbia Pacific University, a nonaccredited correspondence school that was ordered to cease operations in California in 1999 by the Marin County Superior Court.[2] Bergman is a prolific writer with, according to Answers in Genesis, over 600 articles (none in peer-refereed scientific journals, of course,[3] but quite a few for Answers Research Journal) and 20 books to his name.
He considers himself one of the victims of persecution by "Darwinists", after he was denied tenure and dismissed from Bowling Green State University in 1978 “solely because of my beliefs and publications in the area of creationism”. He attempted, unsuccessfully, to take the university to court over religious discrimination.(It should be added that in a signed letter published in David Duke's National Association of White People newsletter, he stated that “reverse racial discrimination was clearly part of the decision,” so even according to himself it cannot have been solely because of his religious beliefs.[4]) According to the courts, however, Bergman was terminated because of ethics, namely that he claimed to have credentials in psychology when, in fact, he “had no psychological credentials.”[5]
Bergman is known to be a rather skilled at public debates, where he can Gish gallop at will and opponents don’t have the time or opportunity to debunk all of his claims, misrepresentations, and fundamental misunderstandings.
One of Bergman’s favorite tactics is to redefine words. For instance, Bergman claims that he has scientifically proven that there is no such thing as vestigial organs, therefore evolution is false. He accomplished this by redefining “vestigial” to mean “having no function at all”; thus, all he had to do was to demonstrate that alleged vestigial organs did or potentially did anything whatsoever.[6] Of course, this is not the definition of “vestigial”. That did not prevent Bergman from writing a book about it (with George Howe).
Bergman has predictably enough argued that evolution leads to Hitler.[7] In fact, one of his primary debate tactics is character-assassination of Darwin[8]. According to Bergman,“Charles Darwin’s major goal in developing his theory was religious, he wanted to “murder” god (his words).” The passage in which Darwin talked about “murder” is this:
At last gleams of light have come, & I am almost convinced (quite contrary to opinion I started with) that species are not (it is like confessing a murder) immutable.
It doesn’t quite appear to say what Bergman thinks it says. Among other things Bergman attributes to Darwin are:
He was active in “converting” all he could to his theory of origins.
Darwin plagiarized most of his major ideas.
Darwin was a racist of the worst kind and believed the lower races (the blacks) would go extinct.
Darwin was opposed to helping the sick, but realized this idea would not go over well.
Darwin felt a wife was better than a dog (really!).
He was severely mentally and physically ill, likely an agoraphobic.
As a young man he was sadistic and loved to kill animals with anything he had: guns, sticks, even hammers!
His evidence for these claims is based on, shall we say, unconventional interpretations of passages from Darwin; and in addition, even if these claims were true, it is hard to see how they would undermine the scientific theory of evolution.
<END>
Yes, that Bergman. Where Bergman and I part company is that I do not accept the biblical interpretation of creation.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99963 Sep 24, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
It is funny that most of my comment shave nothing to do with religion but you work it into most of your comments in some way.
Relevant in this case because you were close to making a valid point. And since this is a thread about religious fundamentalism against reality it's worth noting that fundies will appeal to any source if they think it sounds like a convincing argument. Doesn't matter if the source if flawed, wrong, dishonest, misunderstood or quotemined.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99964 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>To describe me as a fundamentalist is as inaccurate as defending the abiogenesis theory. Scientists today are running away from abiogenesis theory like mad. Behind closed doors, many are trembling at having to face the notion that there may have been some sort of "creator" that started it all.
This totally inaccurate tirade of twaddle you just posted here is plenty of evidence that you're a fundie. Of course very few fundies THINK they're a fundie. But that's generally because thinking is not their area of expertise.
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
Even Charles Darwin concluded that the first living being was likely the result of a creator of some kind.
He was agnostic, but his religious opinions are irrelevant.
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
To believe there might have been a "creative energy" that started the proverbial ball rolling need not have biblical or "fundamentalist" underpinnings. To believe otherwise strikes me as a bit smug.
Of course there was a creative energy. It's called chemistry. It creates life every day. However it's when people deny that this same process that works now worked radically different back in those days all for the sake of having a "creative energy" who was (allegedly) intelligent, and generally not of the flying saucer little green men variety, all because they wish to believe that the entire universe was created especially for them. Plus they will get to live forever in paradise with said intelligent creative energy because this humongo powerful dudeliness thinks they're frakking fantastic.

There is no greater ego than that of the fundamentalist. Science does not compare.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99965 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>I'll ignore your patronizing tone and refer you to a paper by Jerry Bergman
BWA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAA!!!

Oh yeah.

Jerry.

And you're not a fundie. Got it.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#99966 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, that Bergman. Where Bergman and I part company is that I do not accept the biblical interpretation of creation.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Bergman HIMSELF didn't believe in YEC, but just 'preaches' it because he can sell more books that way.

Bergman is sleazy.
I AM SIRIUS

Perris, CA

#99967 Sep 24, 2013
Both creation and evolution proponents don't know the truth.

Creationists who believe in the bible literally and ignorant of esoteric knowledge behind biblical allegories will not have real knowledge of the truth.

Evolutionists, on the other hand, will be knowledgeable only with what can be observed from empirical evidence, but does not take into account anything beyond logical reasoning.

So you are all wasting your precious time berating each other with something that has already been debated over and over, it's pointless. No side wins here. You all need to think of other alternatives other than what has already been disproved or lacking in real evidence.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99968 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
I am aware that Bergman's work is not without its critics, but I find his work very persuasive.
Yes, so does he. So much so in fact that he was SO persuaded by his own persuasiveness he even said so on his own website BEFORE he even wrote the uh, "article" you mentioned.

The guy thinks the Flinstones is a science documentary and you say you're NOT a fundie? And that scientists are running away from science in droves because they're really scared that life really was started by an invisible Jew via magical poofing?

And you're NOT a fundie?

I guess you learn something new every day.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99969 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, that Bergman. Where Bergman and I part company is that I do not accept the biblical interpretation of creation.
Like I said - who cares?

Your baseless religious opinions are NOT important here.

They never have been.

“Happiness comes through giving”

Level 7

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#99970 Sep 24, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, so does he. So much so in fact that he was SO persuaded by his own persuasiveness he even said so on his own website BEFORE he even wrote the uh, "article" you mentioned.
The guy thinks the Flinstones is a science documentary and you say you're NOT a fundie? And that scientists are running away from science in droves because they're really scared that life really was started by an invisible Jew via magical poofing?
And you're NOT a fundie?
I guess you learn something new every day.
It seems you don't.

“Happiness comes through giving”

Level 7

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#99971 Sep 24, 2013
One day your smug sense of certitude will defeat you.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99972 Sep 24, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
HA! Beat ya to it, Terry!
I was foiled by a phone call!! Damn customers
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99973 Sep 24, 2013
I AM SIRIUS wrote:
Both creation and evolution proponents don't know the truth.
Still don't care about your little green men

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#99974 Sep 24, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Bergman HIMSELF didn't believe in YEC, but just 'preaches' it because he can sell more books that way.
Bergman is sleazy.
He's a loony...

Or a pathological liar.

Or a complete con man.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#99975 Sep 24, 2013
Lawrence Wolf wrote:
One day your smug sense of certitude will defeat you.
I'm sorry, but how am I "smug" simply for noting that water is wet? Because that's REALLY all that is happening here - people describing reality debunking people who claim magic wizards are necessary.

If you wanna see smug then take a look at the opening post, or our resident Russian fundie.

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