Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
Comments
90,921 - 90,940 of 114,366 Comments Last updated 43 min ago

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96248
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
I just read where you had to ask someone about him.
You don't have a clue about him and in fact, you don't want to know the truth, do ya?
It would mess up your entire world.
Sad
Here ya go, bozo. Here's his CV. Interesting that he doesn't mention a damn thing about creationism or any of his wingnut conspiracies. I wonder why that is? Maybe he knows he get laughed out of town. Or Cape Town.

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Veith_Curri...

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96249
Aug 7, 2013
 

Judged:

1

imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, it means you believe anything that is told to people if it has the title of being a 'scientific research paper'. You have made scientists your 'god'.
Do you not know that men will lie to you for money, career, power, prestige?
Science has became another political party, in a way.
There is plenty of proof of a global flood but just as Bible scripture states, the unbelievers will do anything to hide the truth of God, and that's exactly what the majority of scientist are doing.
Remember, everyone is born without faith in God.
Everyone is born as an enemy of God.
Everyone who is first born does not know God
and does not believe in God
and mocks God...
even every Christian on this thread.
When we tell you what we now know about God, its not to show pride in ourselves, it is ONLY to help you.
No scientists are not my God. Nothing so melodramatic.

Empirical evidence is my standard, and logical inferences made from that evidence.

You may kid yourswlf about mythical floods if it please you. We all know that beneath your noble protestations of faith there is merely a coward afraid to die, one who would convince himself that all scientists are liars but ralking snakes or for that matter the easter bunny is true, so long as he does not have to face his own mortality.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96250
Aug 7, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Please, I said a valid source. Any source that starts out praising him is obviously biased.
re you really this stupid?
A valid source is an independent source. Not that of some sycophant that will believe any nonsense that Veith spews. Try again.
I'm getting them but Im sure you haven't even read what this guy had to say about him and his lecture videos.

Wouldn't want to upset that Evo-Cart, would we?
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96251
Aug 7, 2013
 
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Check their website. Other than collaborating on some papers, there no mention of him.
You're full of it! lol!

All you have to do is read is page 2

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Veith_Curri...

UNIVERSITY OF THE WESTERN CAPE
1988 Sr lecturer Zoology

1989 Sr lecturer Zoology

SINCE 1990 Employed in dept of Zoology

1995-2002 Professor and chair of Zoology dept

2002-2004 Professor of medical Bioscience

Since 2005 Retired from academia...International lecturer etc.......
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96252
Aug 7, 2013
 
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No scientists are not my God. Nothing so melodramatic.
Empirical evidence is my standard, and logical inferences made from that evidence.
You may kid yourswlf about mythical floods if it please you. We all know that beneath your noble protestations of faith there is merely a coward afraid to die, one who would convince himself that all scientists are liars but ralking snakes or for that matter the easter bunny is true, so long as he does not have to face his own mortality.
Do What???

lol!

'coward afraid to die'

What?

Have you been drinking to early today?

wow!
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96253
Aug 7, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
I have linked his videos here in the past. Specifically naming spots where he was lying. And proving that he lied.
In one of his videos he lies about what geologists believes. Now he was supposedly a professor at a good sized school. There is quite a bit of interdepartment communication at a large school. He could not be a professor and not know that what he said was not the truth.
He is an worse than an idiot. You are an idiot, if you cared to educate yourself your problem could be fixed. He is educated and he chooses to lie. That is a bigger sin in my book.
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Veith_Curri...

Why when you disagree with another person's views, you ALWAYS call them a "LYING IDIOT" or worse.

very childish

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96254
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
CONTINUED:
'+ Base64.decode($('spoiler_64369 594aff2f5fa432dba9b87ec8527'). innerHTML)+''); Element.remove('spoiler_643695 94aff2f5fa432dba9b87ec8527'); Element.remove(this);"
Spoiler: Click to View
Here he talks about some fallacies with our current understanding of fossils and he starts talking about the fallacis with evolution. This one's interesting because he counters the idea of "gradualism" by showing that the vast amount of species we have are just a result of their gene pool and them adapting to their environment as opposed to random mutations, which honastly makes more sense. He also makes some statements about carnivors which may not make much sense but he elaborates on it in the 6th lecture.
'+ Base64.decode($('spoiler_a59c9 89fe2ae2d4fbc8a5bfb1492a67d'). innerHTML)+''); Element.remove('spoiler_a59c98 9fe2ae2d4fbc8a5bfb1492a67d'); Element.remove(this);"
Spoiler: Click to View
Here he talks about some missing links, like whales for example who's closest relative according to evolution, as Darwin said, was a swimming bear.. and there's many missing links like this. Also he talks about the ice age which I found interesting because he brings up some fallacies over our understanding of ice cores, which to me debunks the whole global warming theory since it's pretty much based on ice cores. He also talks about genes a bit, explaining why us having 99% in common with a chimp dosn't prove we are decended from them.
'+ Base64.decode($('spoiler_7e06f 42f3fa0f301b871687e7a148c1f'). innerHTML)+''); Element.remove('spoiler_7e06f4 2f3fa0f301b871687e7a148c1f'); Element.remove(this);"
Spoiler: Click to View
Now this one I really want you guys to watch cause here he talks about Darwin in depth and just evicerates his whole theory, particularly concerning the chances of life randomly forming in the first place. The way he put it, he made it seem like evolution required just as much faith as anything else. It kind of makes me mad that I was taught evolution in school without any one teaching the downsides he points out in this vid.
'+ Base64.decode($('spoiler_aa798 e8b44b4850722056b999927c664'). innerHTML)+''); Element.remove('spoiler_aa798e 8b44b4850722056b999927c664'); Element.remove(this);"
Spoiler: Click to View
Now this one I think is his weakest arguement, he tries to prove that carnivores didn't exist at the beginning of time, but if you want to see someone try to attempt at proving that, he does a pretty good job and he expands on genes a little bit more.
I didn't totally convert to Christian fundamentalist after watching these, but I certainly do not believe in evolution, at least in it's current form and anyone who says that there's overwhelming proof for evolution obviously hasn't researched the topic as much as this guy has, perhaps athiests are putting their faith in the wrong religion?
You have shown in post after post how little you know about science. Now you are impressed by one bozo who even from this summary is clearly making the most elementary errors before he even gets started.

Learn what evolution ACTUALLY claims by reading ACTUAL materials about evolution by the scientists who understand it.

The level of ignorant criticism you present would be like me criticising the Bible if I have never read it and took all my information from anti-Christian Muslim commentators! What chance would there be that my criticisms were valid?

THAT is EXACTLY what you are doing.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96255
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
You're full of it! lol!
All you have to do is read is page 2
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Veith_Curri...
UNIVERSITY OF THE WESTERN CAPE
1988 Sr lecturer Zoology
1989 Sr lecturer Zoology
SINCE 1990 Employed in dept of Zoology
1995-2002 Professor and chair of Zoology dept
2002-2004 Professor of medical Bioscience
Since 2005 Retired from academia...International lecturer etc.......
That's not the university's website, dumbass.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96256
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Veith_Curri...
Why when you disagree with another person's views, you ALWAYS call them a "LYING IDIOT" or worse.
very childish
No, when a person continually uses idiotic reasoning, even after the topic has been carefully explained to them along with links to proper science I call them idiots.

When people use lying resources, such as creatard.com and they know that those sources lie I will call them liars.

I am more than happy to help those who WANT to learn. If you don't want to learn and do what you do you are clearly a lying idiot.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96257
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm getting them but Im sure you haven't even read what this guy had to say about him and his lecture videos.
Wouldn't want to upset that Evo-Cart, would we?
Veith is so obviously wrong that he could not upset anything.

He is only useful because he will lie for the creatards, and even they are leery about him now that exactly how crazy he is is becoming public.
JBH

Richmond, Canada

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96258
Aug 7, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Obama is wrong all the time with a lot of stands of radicalism. This is a total embarrassment of ALL TIME as Obama is the light weight, by making lots of deception.
He HAS USED the Snowden story in the mixed-up of calling G-20 Summit with no one single fact proven, nor with demonstrating any substance to the degree of what Snowden really has done, as he even whispered opinion on the case by by saying of going back to cold war.

Obama always thinks he is progressive by calling forward, yet everything he does is indeed beyond being backward, ridiculous and silly, which shows by doing the backwardness policy of his saying of cold war, and that contradicts and confronts what he says he is a forward progressive.

He would also use the very small tiny matter of feeling upset by making gay stand as being extremely confused and agitated about Russia's Scohi Olympic, which is totally impertinent and improper in the relevant business.

When he had high anxiety in the chemical weapons subject about Syria by calling red line, yet he could not demonstrate with one substantial single fact of clues, and why and what-unsuitable-that he is not, by being so pushy into shuffling into Syria, with no valid findings,like former Bush to Iraq.

Everything Obama says is lack of ground and that is why he is always discredited from what he says, by the world
IN respect to global business and agenda as the vast and big agenda related to G-20 Summit and International OLympics in modern forward direction of especially in these new times, not that everything Obama thinks and says is wrong , the advocacy of wrongs in the damages so caused to US people, the great weight of global importance of G-20 and International Sochi Olympics, would make the silly stocks of embarrassment and laughters of Obama.

Just who defies who--as it indicates that Obama defies global democracy, of which huge majority of world public deny everything of what Obama says, about Snowden, G-20, International Sochi Olympics policy ? When one asks any country around the world will do that reaction like Obama , that is highly impossible, because worldwide people are much better than Obama, as Obama is merely a lone soul in his opinion among huge global populations.
How can US be a Superpower, with no basic grasp and weight measure of big events as to facts realized, adjusted and knowing when Obama demonstrates such, which makes no sense in every case?

As Obama seems to be very immature in his conducts and shows inapt attitude, there is no question why US is going downhill and increasingly lacking weight stand on the world stage, simply he demonstrates the lack of capability, being totally irrational and unreasonable beyond the over limit in the nature of being so odd as the extremism of unfit position undertaken by him.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96259
Aug 7, 2013
 
JBH wrote:
Obama is wrong all the time with a lot of stands of radicalism. This is a total embarrassment of ALL TIME as Obama is the light weight, by making lots of deception.
He HAS USED the Snowden story in the mixed-up of calling G-20 Summit with no one single fact proven, nor with demonstrating any substance to the degree of what Snowden really has done, as he even whispered opinion on the case by by saying of going back to cold war.
Obama always thinks he is progressive by calling forward, yet everything he does is indeed beyond being backward, ridiculous and silly, which shows by doing the backwardness policy of his saying of cold war, and that contradicts and confronts what he says he is a forward progressive.
He would also use the very small tiny matter of feeling upset by making gay stand as being extremely confused and agitated about Russia's Scohi Olympic, which is totally impertinent and improper in the relevant business.
When he had high anxiety in the chemical weapons subject about Syria by calling red line, yet he could not demonstrate with one substantial single fact of clues, and why and what-unsuitable-that he is not, by being so pushy into shuffling into Syria, with no valid findings,like former Bush to Iraq.
Everything Obama says is lack of ground and that is why he is always discredited from what he says, by the world
IN respect to global business and agenda as the vast and big agenda related to G-20 Summit and International OLympics in modern forward direction of especially in these new times, not that everything Obama thinks and says is wrong , the advocacy of wrongs in the damages so caused to US people, the great weight of global importance of G-20 and International Sochi Olympics, would make the silly stocks of embarrassment and laughters of Obama.
Just who defies who--as it indicates that Obama defies global democracy, of which huge majority of world public deny everything of what Obama says, about Snowden, G-20, International Sochi Olympics policy ? When one asks any country around the world will do that reaction like Obama , that is highly impossible, because worldwide people are much better than Obama, as Obama is merely a lone soul in his opinion among huge global populations.
How can US be a Superpower, with no basic grasp and weight measure of big events as to facts realized, adjusted and knowing when Obama demonstrates such, which makes no sense in every case?
As Obama seems to be very immature in his conducts and shows inapt attitude, there is no question why US is going downhill and increasingly lacking weight stand on the world stage, simply he demonstrates the lack of capability, being totally irrational and unreasonable beyond the over limit in the nature of being so odd as the extremism of unfit position undertaken by him.
It's even worse than that.

imagine2011

Southaven, MS

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96260
Aug 7, 2013
 
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have shown in post after post how little you know about science. Now you are impressed by one bozo who even from this summary is clearly making the most elementary errors before he even gets started.
Learn what evolution ACTUALLY claims by reading ACTUAL materials about evolution by the scientists who understand it.
The level of ignorant criticism you present would be like me criticising the Bible if I have never read it and took all my information from anti-Christian Muslim commentators! What chance would there be that my criticisms were valid?
THAT is EXACTLY what you are doing.
I love watching you guys get your feathers up, claws out and tongues of fire lit up. All it takes is showing how wrong you are, evidence to the contrary and boy do the criticisms and attacks fly.

There is plenty of evidence in God, that is so obvious that a child can see it, and billions of people around the world laughing at your unbelievable 'crazy evo' ideas.
Dak-Original

Caerphilly, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96261
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yoga as a physical stretching exercise is fine, but when you use it spiritually, emptying and opening your mind up to any thoughts, you are inviting spirits, of any kind, to invade your mind.
This is forbidden by God.
So you believe in the authority of God! Inviting "spirits" to invade one's mind? You are fully detached from reality due to your blind following of a belief system.

Dak-Original

Caerphilly, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96262
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a faith.
Reason: you have faith in many of the 'conclusions' that have now been shown to have fatal flaws.
There will be faulty fringes in the now mainly proved fact of the Evolution of the Species and after the Human Genome Project of 2003 you are crazy to use words "fatal flaws". Wake up now!
Dak-Original

Caerphilly, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96263
Aug 7, 2013
 
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Here are just a few, I'll be back with 'plenty' more.
The Taung child in South Africa. This fossil was once rejected as a human ancestor. It has since been accepted.
The Piltdown Hoax. A human skull and Orangutan’s jaw were altered to make evolution look credible.
The Nebraska Man. In 1917, geologist Harold Cook found a tooth. Scientists believed it was from an undiscovered ape, an ancestor of humans. However, in 1925 scientists discovered that the tooth actually belonged to an extinct pig.
Neanderthals. The original descriptions of the Neanderthal fossils were distorted to make the fossils seem more primitive than they are.
Ramapithecus. This species was once considered a human ancestor, but is now known only as a relative of the orangutan.
East African Volcanic Dating. There is a heated debate over the age of a volcanic layer that is associated with human fossils in East Africa.
Australopithecines. Paleoanthropologists Richard Leakey and Donald Johanson disagree on where the newer Lucy-type finds were located.
The Force of Change. There are ongoing conflicts about whether predation, hunting, or cooperation caused human evolution.
Lewin says this about the theory of human evolution:
In the physical realm, any theory of human evolution must explain how it was that an apelike ancestor, equipped with powerful jaws and long, daggerlike canine teeth and able to run at speed on four limbs, became transformed into a slow, bipedal animal whose natural means of defense were at best puny. Add to this the power of intellect, speech, and morality, upon which we “stand raised as upon the mountain top” as Huxley put it, and one has the complete challenge to the evolutionary theory.
But the Human Genome Project of 2003 has the last word and the above is copy paste of matters raised by creation apologists prior to 2003.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96264
Aug 7, 2013
 
JBH wrote:
Obama is wrong all the time with a lot of stands of radicalism. This is a total embarrassment of ALL TIME as Obama is the light weight, by making lots of deception.
He HAS USED the Snowden story in the mixed-up of calling G-20 Summit with no one single fact proven, nor with demonstrating any substance to the degree of what Snowden really has done, as he even whispered opinion on the case by by saying of going back to cold war.
Obama always thinks he is progressive by calling forward, yet everything he does is indeed beyond being backward, ridiculous and silly, which shows by doing the backwardness policy of his saying of cold war, and that contradicts and confronts what he says he is a forward progressive.
He would also use the very small tiny matter of feeling upset by making gay stand as being extremely confused and agitated about Russia's Scohi Olympic, which is totally impertinent and improper in the relevant business.
When he had high anxiety in the chemical weapons subject about Syria by calling red line, yet he could not demonstrate with one substantial single fact of clues, and why and what-unsuitable-that he is not, by being so pushy into shuffling into Syria, with no valid findings,like former Bush to Iraq.
Everything Obama says is lack of ground and that is why he is always discredited from what he says, by the world
IN respect to global business and agenda as the vast and big agenda related to G-20 Summit and International OLympics in modern forward direction of especially in these new times, not that everything Obama thinks and says is wrong , the advocacy of wrongs in the damages so caused to US people, the great weight of global importance of G-20 and International Sochi Olympics, would make the silly stocks of embarrassment and laughters of Obama.
Just who defies who--as it indicates that Obama defies global democracy, of which huge majority of world public deny everything of what Obama says, about Snowden, G-20, International Sochi Olympics policy ? When one asks any country around the world will do that reaction like Obama , that is highly impossible, because worldwide people are much better than Obama, as Obama is merely a lone soul in his opinion among huge global populations.
How can US be a Superpower, with no basic grasp and weight measure of big events as to facts realized, adjusted and knowing when Obama demonstrates such, which makes no sense in every case?
As Obama seems to be very immature in his conducts and shows inapt attitude, there is no question why US is going downhill and increasingly lacking weight stand on the world stage, simply he demonstrates the lack of capability, being totally irrational and unreasonable beyond the over limit in the nature of being so odd as the extremism of unfit position undertaken by him.
He's using Snowden, G20 summit and Russia heavily in the news to divert attention away from his illegal actions with the IRS and his spying on the news channel and all other countries.

I agree, he took on a job that was way over his head, his very large, conceited, egotistical head.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96265
Aug 7, 2013
 

Judged:

1

imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Veith_Curri...
Why when you disagree with another person's views, you ALWAYS call them a "LYING IDIOT" or worse.
very childish
Yes, and the more you show them their error, the madder they get, accusing, stereotyping and attacking you personally, offering nothing to refute the evidence but taking sidestreets and offering paper arguments. But they did the same to Christ.

Dr. Maynard Miller, Americas most experienced glaciologist in his day, told me that there is not a single ice cap in the world with more than 5000 yrs of cyclic ice accumulation, as after those depths the ice homogenizes and then they estimate age by compression and length; as far as varves, they have found fossilized fish in multiple varves, covered and killed catastrophically. Hence ice core dating and varves prove nothing for evolution but support a creation model.

I have spent over 30 years working underground world-wide and in every case, I have never once seen strata that shows nothing less than the picture the Bible paints - That this world was made out of water with water and was subsequently destroyed by water.(See Great Unconformity link) I approach this with fear. Uniformity in general has been operating with the exception of local catastrophic events like St. Helens, which only more prove a flood model.

The comment venue of blogs and bantering sounds nice if your education is evolutionary and field experience is google and talk-origins. Evolution is a belief system based on faith easily refuted. You just have to ask the right questions -



http://youngearth.com/grand-canyon-nautiloids

http://www.icr.org/article/2032/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96266
Aug 7, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, and the more you show them their error, the madder they get, accusing, stereotyping and attacking you personally, offering nothing to refute the evidence but taking sidestreets and offering paper arguments. But they did the same to Christ.
Dr. Maynard Miller, Americas most experienced glaciologist in his day, told me that there is not a single ice cap in the world with more than 5000 yrs of cyclic ice accumulation, as after those depths the ice homogenizes and then they estimate age by compression and length; as far as varves, they have found fossilized fish in multiple varves, covered and killed catastrophically. Hence ice core dating and varves prove nothing for evolution but support a creation model.
I have spent over 30 years working underground world-wide and in every case, I have never once seen strata that shows nothing less than the picture the Bible paints - That this world was made out of water with water and was subsequently destroyed by water.(See Great Unconformity link) I approach this with fear. Uniformity in general has been operating with the exception of local catastrophic events like St. Helens, which only more prove a flood model.
The comment venue of blogs and bantering sounds nice if your education is evolutionary and field experience is google and talk-origins. Evolution is a belief system based on faith easily refuted. You just have to ask the right questions -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =zaKryi3605gXX
http://youngearth.com/grand-canyon-nautiloids
http://www.icr.org/article/2032/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...
You idiot!

Antarctica is thought to have been covered by ice for over 30 million years. So far, scientists have drilled ice cores stretching back 800,000 years, and they are now working to extend their records back to 1.4 million years ago.

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/environmen...

Level 1

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96267
Aug 7, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Very good on Evolution vs God.

http://m.youtube.com/watch... #

Tell me when this thread is updated: (Registration is not required)

Add to my Tracker Send me an email

Type in your comments below
Name
(appears on your post)
Comments
Characters left: 4000
Type the numbers you see in the image on the right:

Please note by clicking on "Post Comment" you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

71 Users are viewing the Weird Forum right now

Search the Weird Forum:
Title Updated Last By Comments
What's your tip for the day? 8 min Mister_ E 497
El's Kitchen (Feb '09) 26 min TALLYHO 8541 35,808
Big dawg 32 min Big dawg 316
Add a Word, Ruin a Movie (Oct '13) 32 min Parden Pard 3,157
A six word game (Dec '08) 35 min Parden Pard 17,417
WHAT???? A NEW word game? FOUR WORDS (Sep '08) 40 min Parden Pard 40,101
Make A Sentance out of a 5 letter word. (Nov '09) 45 min Parden Pard 29,074
What song are you listening to right now? (Apr '08) 46 min Beth S 143,787
What are you thinking about now? (Jun '10) 4 hr -Lea- 18,046
Weird sea critters invade West Coast beaches 4 hr Petal Power 6
•••
•••