Evolution vs. Creation

Jan 6, 2011 Read more: Best of New Orleans 155,446
High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Read more

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Valley Village, CA

#96218 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
Doesn't make common sense.
Let's talk about common sense...

SCENARIO #1:
You are claiming that evolution is false. Yet, many scientists work in fields that deal directly or indirectly with evolution.

If evolution is false, then the work they produce must either be faulty or falsified. It either can't work because it's based on something that's broken, or it works because they are cheating.

If that's the case, then everyone in these fields must know that evolution is false. Not "they have their opinion" the way someone outside of the field thinks. They work IN THE FIELD, they _MUST_ know that it's absolutely fake.

So, these people (let's say 200 million worldwide, though it's probably MUCH higher) all _KNOW_ for a fact that evolution is absolutely false and, by extension, must therefore know that Creationism is correct.

They _KNOW_, therefore, that they are going against God's will and will suffer in Hell forever as a result. They know the same fate will befall their loved ones.

AND, they are constantly having to fake all their work so that they can still produce results but without the primary mechanism involved in generating those results.

Yet, they all keep doing it. And for all this effort and eternal damnation for themselves and everyone they love, they earn a modest Middle Class income.

However, if they switched to any other profession, their lives would be a lot easier (since they wouldn't have to fake their work all the time), they'd make the same or more money, and they wouldn't face eternal damnation.

SCENARIO #2:
All 200 Million scientists are actually producing result using real science that actually works. They aren't lying to themselves and everyone else. They aren't involved in a massive global cover up.

But, the book that was written 6,000 years ago based on earlier Babylonian mythology is meant to be taken as an _ANALOGY_(which incidentally, is _EXACTLY_ what the Jews say and it is, after all, THEIR book).

It's just that a few religious fundamentalists in the US have forgotten the _ANALOGY_ part and are trying to look at the stories as if they are 100% scientifically accurate despite the fact that no evidence supports them and all evidence contradicts them.

So, using "common sense", which of these two scenarios makes the most sense?

#1) Massive worldwide scientific conspiracy involving fake results (which actually work) by scientists who have no reason to do so.

#2) A small group of American worshipers are misunderstanding the point of the stories (exactly like the people who's stories they are are saying is happening).

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#96219 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm called to speak for Him. All of His children are called to speak for Him.
Oh really? I understand you are charged with spreading his word. I didn't realize he had also given you power-of-attorney.
imagine2011 wrote:
Lol! Pride and arrogance!
Precisely.
imagine2011 wrote:
Why would I submit myself to this thread of mocking, being called every name under the sun, just to try and show you a truth that is being purposely hidden from you (purposely hidden by the unbelievers) if I was proud and arrogant???
Martyr complex, I'd imagine. You guys love that stuff.
imagine2011 wrote:
If you don't believe what I tell you, then why would you think I'm proud of something you don't even believe?
No idea.
imagine2011 wrote:
Doesn't make common sense.
Nor does that sentence.

“Move into the light.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#96220 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
So, when we say that God always existed, you respond by saying "Who created God, He had to have a creator, He didn't come from nothing" ...or 'NOW' you say ..."NOTHING NEVER EXISTED"...or "The world was created from nothing"
If nothing never existed, who created the things that have 'always' existed?
Make up your mind.
If it were nothing (there wouldn't have even been a god)
Or the potential energy we say created it.
It's not a matter of making up my mind , my description fits the reality. Existence cannot be reduced to absolutely nothing, only to
appears to be nothing at a glance. There had to have been the potential of something, the singularity formed from this potential
or ground state.

If this potential or ground state had not existed, there would be nothing. It's that simple, but lets try it your way, you reduce everything to god. Then god is the potential to be something, but we can't find a god.

But we can find potentials in nothing, because nothing still contains something, we call it ZPE. maybe you think ZPE is god
but I call it the potential that exists when you take everything else away. It's the ground state energy.

“Move into the light.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#96221 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
We don't have to ask where length, height or depth came from, we have already been told.
It's you guys that are still scratching your heads for an answer because you're too hardheaded to hear the truth.
Every "TRUTHFUL" discovery that you make, only proves God's existence and power.
Isaiah 44:24
This is what the LORD says&#8209;your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.
Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.
Then you should have no problem communicating with god, and would have no need to ask me anything. So go ask god where time came from and quit spamming the forum with your ignorance of science. You and god can recite bible verses together.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#96222 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
I see, attacking the messenger and not actually listening to the message.
He used to be atheist and an evolution university professor until he came to know God and realized the instability of evolution.
He lost his job at the university because he told the truth about the flaws in evolution.
Well, he has now climbed his way back up out of poverty after being 'shunned' by the atheistic education system.
Why don't you listen to a few of his lectures before you can claim its nonsense.
Why do you always have to blindly follow your 'peers' who could well be lying thru their teeth to you, and you wouldn't even know it if you don't search for the truth on your own.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =nfDB7OUBh-kXX
FLOOD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
He lost his job because he's a friggin loony.

http://janalanmckenzie.wordpress.com/2008/12/...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#96223 Aug 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
There is certainly some undertone in his speeches that modern Israel is not the Israel of the bible and should not be accorded any legitimacy.
I have only listened to his comments about the Flood. He is so laughably wrong there it is ridiculous. And he does openly lie in those lectures.

I would not doubt that he could have some antisemitic leaning too.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

#96224 Aug 7, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
I went to check out one of imagine's videos and found that typical of chickenshit creatards that the ability to comment had been turned off.
Creationists hate it when others point out how their nonsense is debunked by the real world.
You haven't had time to watch any of the videos. I see how much you want to be open minded to the other side of these issues.

What did you do? Just go there and try to make negative statements and then you left when you couldn't degrade someone?
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

#96225 Aug 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
He lost his job because he's a friggin loony.
http://janalanmckenzie.wordpress.com/2008/12/...
Oh please, give me a break. These people are the loonies.

I can show you hundreds, if not thousands of comments from people who love his work.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

#96226 Aug 7, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
I have only listened to his comments about the Flood. He is so laughably wrong there it is ridiculous. And he does openly lie in those lectures.
I would not doubt that he could have some antisemitic leaning too.
Like I said, you haven't had time to listen to the video.

You just have the mindset that you're not going to be open to any other ideas than your 'scientist' have brainwashed you to.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

#96227 Aug 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
He lost his job because he's a friggin loony.
http://janalanmckenzie.wordpress.com/2008/12/...
Oh, I forgot to add, the same university, after a few months of firing him, re-hired him saying he didn't have to teach evolution anymore.

Check it out.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#96228 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh please, give me a break. These people are the loonies.
I can show you hundreds, if not thousands of comments from people who love his work.
There's a lot of loonies. So what?

Interesting that his own church disavows him.

You seem to think this is the first time his name has come it. It isn't.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#96229 Aug 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
He lost his job because he's a friggin loony.
http://janalanmckenzie.wordpress.com/2008/12/...
Oh my!!

He is a Troofer! Of course many creatards are conspiracy theory nuts too.

Pure Gold>

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#96230 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I forgot to add, the same university, after a few months of firing him, re-hired him saying he didn't have to teach evolution anymore.
Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =LETvVezBXioXX
Walter Vieth talking about his own history is not a valid source. You should be able to find an independent source that backs up this claim.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#96231 Aug 7, 2013
I almost forgot, Imagine, you should be able to find an independent source backing up Veith's claims. Provided that they are true.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

#96232 Aug 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
There's a lot of loonies. So what?
Interesting that his own church disavows him.
You seem to think this is the first time his name has come it. It isn't.
There are hundreds of comments of people from his own church that love his teachings, you just picked the ones who don't.

I know this isn't the first time his name has come up, but its the first time I had the energy to type this much and defend him.

You know nothing about him, yet you degrade him on less than 15 loony comments.

Which lectures have you watched in full?

Any at all.

I didn't think so.

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#96233 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh please, give me a break. These people are the loonies.
I can show you hundreds, if not thousands of comments from people who love his work.
People who didn't have much understanding of science to begin with.

Why don't you open your mind to the possibility that Veith is not making claims based on science and those familiar with science might recognize that. What do you think? Is that possible?

“Don't be mad at me.”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

I'm just a little bunny.

#96234 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, you haven't had time to listen to the video.
You just have the mindset that you're not going to be open to any other ideas than your 'scientist' have brainwashed you to.
You are not going to open your mind to the possibility that you have sought out only information that supports what you believe and have never taken an honest look at this or other contradictory information.

And you guys push for teaching the alternative. Such hypocrisy.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#96235 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
There are hundreds of comments of people from his own church that love his teachings, you just picked the ones who don't.
Easy to say.
imagine2011 wrote:
I know this isn't the first time his name has come up, but its the first time I had the energy to type this much and defend him.
Bully for you. I didn't realize typing was so exhausting.
imagine2011 wrote:
You know nothing about him, yet you degrade him on less than 15 loony comments.
Which lectures have you watched in full?
Any at all.
I didn't think so.
You don't know what I know and I don't really care what you think.

Interesting that the University of Western Cape seems to have no reference to him.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#96236 Aug 7, 2013
imagine2011 wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, you haven't had time to listen to the video.
You just have the mindset that you're not going to be open to any other ideas than your 'scientist' have brainwashed you to.
I have watched his videos in the past.

I don't need to watch them again.

Once someone lies in a position like his he loses all credibility. Walter Veith lies all of the time.
imagine2011

Southaven, MS

#96238 Aug 7, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Walter Vieth talking about his own history is not a valid source. You should be able to find an independent source that backs up this claim.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/5...

Jump to page 3 to find the first part of the summary of his first video.
There seems to be a lot of topics recently asking for good arguements for creation, so since I've recently found this guy who, in my opinion, makes a very good arguement for creation I thought you guys would enjoy it, but first I want you guys to know that I'm nothing more than a layman when it comes to evolution so I can't argue on the lecturer's behalf, or at least not provide any more of an arguement then what you would find in the videos, so I'm going to ask you guys to watch a couple of them which are between an hour and an hour and a half each, so don't get mad at me for asking you to watch a long video, if you don't have the time or just don't want to then leave the thread and ignore it, I'm only making this thread because I want to share them.
First a little bit on the lecturer; his name's Walter Veith, born in Germany in 1949 and studied zoology in his home country, but recieved his PhD at the University of Cape Town in South Africa in 1979. His big achievement was being awarded the Royal Society London Grant for the Reconstruction and Development Program to establish a research climate in post-apartheid South Africa. So he has a good knowledge about evoltion, but he disagrees with it because there's just too many flaws in the theory for him to believe it and finds creation to be a much better explaination, on a scientific level, and he even gives evidence to support creation.
His story is pretty much that he was raised as a Catholic, had a bad experiace with Catholicism and became an athiest and studied evoltion, but gained so much knowledge about evolution that he realized it was nonsense and converted back to Christianity.
I have to say though, he's a bit quirky and has givin lectures on some, um, interesting topics, but he's a good man and I ask that you guys judge him on the evidence he provides and not, for example, what sect of Christianity he belongs to now-a-days.
And one last thing, he dosn't claim to have difinitive proof of creation and he makes that well known in the fist video, he just tell us "the other side of the story", showing us that evoltion easily has it's problems (not a "missing link" problem but major problems) and how creation is just as much a scientifically reasonable explaination for the creation of species and history of the earth (he even gives evidence for the flood of Noah). And he does use a few bible verses, so you'll have to deal with that kind of stuff too I'm afraid.
Now he has 8 lectures on the topic, but I'll only present the 6 that I think you guys will be interested in (less bible more science).
'+ Base64.decode($('spoiler_704b7 e5b62664f5eee6cd0ede6513f68'). innerHTML)+''); Element.remove('spoiler_704b7e 5b62664f5eee6cd0ede6513f68'); Element.remove(this);"
Spoiler: Click to View
here he talks about the issue with the Big Bang theory and carbon dating and gives some evidence support the flood of Noah, but I particularly want you guys to watch this one to the end because at the end he tells a story about a malachite stone that blew my mind and was quite interesting.
'+ Base64.decode($('spoiler_c1cfb a7d352ad2ca973e2ece7e7e93ea'). innerHTML)+''); Element.remove('spoiler_c1cfba 7d352ad2ca973e2ece7e7e93ea'); Element.remove(this);"
Spoiler: Click to View
This one is pretty much a whole hour of evidence supporting the flood of Noah

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