Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#95194 Jul 9, 2013
MikeF wrote:
I'll take some exception to this:
<quoted text>
First, where do you get the idea that science was telling them their existence is near meaningless or to live life like there is no tomorrow? I don't doubt that there may be some over-the-top scientist who might make such a claim but where is the the position of science as a discipline?
some people need others to give meaning to their existence. the rest of us give our own lives their meaning.

the difference between sheeple and free thinkers...
Elohim

Branford, CT

#95195 Jul 9, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an acquaintance Dr that has a clinic with 100 or so other doctors and many more support staff. 20 years ago they were seeing hundreds of teens and a minor # of suicides, then it jumped, and jumped again to 1/month. They went back and started a more in-depth questioning of their patients. Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow. So you have a percentage of kids with low esteem, other damage in the family, abuse, divorce for 2 generations now and maybe not athletic, not in the "in" crowd, watching garbage and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe, and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide. This Dr jumped into the fray. If this Earth is young, as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days"), and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
I have spent time in Sweden, and have found as you said, but also an underlying sense of apathy and a hopelessness to get anywhere. Divorce rate is high, childbirth low and they seem to be tredding water. They often plied me with hopeful questions of how life was in the US all the time. They seemed stuck. My thoughts back to you, thanks.
How about a link? I call bullshit.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#95196 Jul 9, 2013
Elohim wrote:
<quoted text>How about a link? I call bullshit.
Huge bullshit, but then that is all that SBT has to offer...

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#95197 Jul 9, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't think so. We understand that there is a brain, and that complicated things go on there. But we have no idea how an actual consciousness arises from that, how there is an "I" that experiences blue and green and the subjective taste of peanut butter or the feel of a hand running through your hair.
I could describe red to a blind man in terms of wavelengths of light but he would still have no idea what it means to experience RED.
That is a mystery science is not even close to explaining. Calling it the brain is merely a marker for our lack of understanding.
And yes, you do dogmatically overstate the true understanding of science at times.
Thanks for admitting that you are being dogmatic. However, you are still posting nonsense.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#95198 Jul 10, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an acquaintance Dr that has a clinic with 100 or so other doctors and many more support staff. 20 years ago they were seeing hundreds of teens and a minor # of suicides, then it jumped, and jumped again to 1/month. They went back and started a more in-depth questioning of their patients. Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow. So you have a percentage of kids with low esteem, other damage in the family, abuse, divorce for 2 generations now and maybe not athletic, not in the "in" crowd, watching garbage and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe, and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide. This Dr jumped into the fray. If this Earth is young, as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days"), and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
I have spent time in Sweden, and have found as you said, but also an underlying sense of apathy and a hopelessness to get anywhere. Divorce rate is high, childbirth low and they seem to be tredding water. They often plied me with hopeful questions of how life was in the US all the time. They seemed stuck. My thoughts back to you, thanks.
No self respecting medical man (unless desirously deranged by goddidit and madly effected by religious hallucination) would pose such a leading and obviously BS question as frog to man. The very idea shows the ignorance of the doctor you are hyping.

FYI, I know and associate with several doctors, Last night I showed your post to a couple of them and they were horrified. Not only with the subject of the questions but the medical ethics of posing such a bigoted questionnaire would see your acquaintance struck off from practice here in the UK.

I have been to the US (several times) and the problems there are reflections of the problems in Sweden, France, the UK and most elsewhere. They are problems of society, unemployment etc that people with much more intelligence and resources than you have attempted to fix but failed. Goddidit by magic is not a magic bullet, it is just a sugar coating that deceives those who want to be deceived, the problems still exist whether you go to church or not.

I do assume however that your doctor acquaintance practices in the babble belt or some other highly religious area of the US. This of course could account for the limited nature of his intellect and the preponderance of depression in his pupils/patents.

Personally I am perfectly content that I know where I came from, that I was once a tiny part of a star (or stars) and what will happen to my dust in millions/billion of years hence. Most of the people I know feel the same way. The very thought of “d’oh we don’t know and don’t understand so must believe a mythical entity did it with magic” is really quite depressing and fit only for the deliberately ignorant.

You are welcome to the faith healing of your doctor acquaintance, me I’ll stick with ethical practice and real scientific medicine.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#95199 Jul 10, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for admitting that you are being dogmatic. However, you are still posting nonsense.
No KK, its you who suffers from dogmatism. Not to mention a significant overreach in some of your claims. A while back you claimed that we know DNA can form naturally.

Actually, we do not yet know how this could happen. You should be careful to keep your claims within the bounds of reality.

You also have a tendency to jump all over anyone who disagrees in the most bitchin' and belligerent mode. Sometimes they deserve it. Other times they are merely raising interesting questions and may genuinely want to have a discussion.

Too itchy with the trigger finger.

We actually agree on this subject, but exaggerated claims and unprovoked aggression actually weaken the case, not strengthen it.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#95201 Jul 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
What about tomorrow or next year? It doesn't exist yet, but can it?
You just said it can't? Sorry the question is seriously flawed.
Time exists as a dimension. Your answer remains seriously flawed.

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#95202 Jul 10, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
No self respecting medical man (unless desirously deranged by goddidit and madly effected by religious hallucination) would pose such a leading and obviously BS question as frog to man. The very idea shows the ignorance of the doctor you are hyping.
FYI, I know and associate with several doctors, Last night I showed your post to a couple of them and they were horrified. Not only with the subject of the questions but the medical ethics of posing such a bigoted questionnaire would see your acquaintance struck off from practice here in the UK.

I do assume however that your doctor acquaintance practices in the babble belt or some other highly religious area of the US. This of course could account for the limited nature of his intellect and the preponderance of depression in his pupils/patents.
Personally I am perfectly content that I know where I came from, that I was once a tiny part of a star (or stars) and what will happen to my dust in millions/billion of years hence. Most of the people I know feel the same way. The very thought of “d’oh we don’t know and don’t understand so must believe a mythical entity did it with magic” is really quite depressing and fit only for the deliberately ignorant.
You are welcome to the faith healing of your doctor acquaintance, me I’ll stick with ethical practice and real scientific medicine.
Well CM, I appreciate you running my thoughts down and responding the way you have. I know an expert that deals with youth and the physiological effects in a developing brain, and he has wrote books and made a careful study of these youth "shooters" (murder suicide). In most every case, the front lobe showed constriction. As the study below strongly suggests, flooding a young brain with violence is damaging to social interaction.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2011/12/...

Schools are places of class definition for sure, its the way kids are, the jocks, the bullies, acceptance based on appearance, grades, clothes and the lot. What is coming out is the outside kids, kids that have little acceptance or value given, become the shooters. My point is that this is a failure of the family and an anti-God environment. Instead they are filled with evil things. Its not complicated. Man has a need for God and the assurance that things will work out - hope. I was not raised in a Christian home, was brainwashed into believing evolution as the answer. I found later what had happened to me, and that we have a place for God in our lives. You are known to Him in every way ,the Bible teaches - "every hair on your head is counted". When this piece is in it's rightful place, though I am in no way perfect, Christ says; "Peace to You!" (for all of us) and;

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS".

“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

God created us and make's the rules, and is not the angry judge people make Him out to be. We live in the age of Grace now, but society suffers from the lack of His love and moral values. One of the major writers in the Bible was Luke, a doctor. Gods gift of healing was emptied into Paul and others for a time as proof of the Message but not to Luke as far as we know. He (Paul) was walking around emptying hospitals for a time. "and he healed them all". Luke is proof that the Gospel is a message of Spirit, the promise of answered prayer and hope for eternity, a relationship with God, not faith healing on command.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#95203 Jul 10, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Well CM, I appreciate you running my thoughts down and responding the way you have. I know an expert that deals with youth and the physiological effects in a developing brain, and he has wrote books and made a careful study of these youth "shooters" (murder suicide). In most every case, the front lobe showed constriction. As the study below strongly suggests, flooding a young brain with violence is damaging to social interaction.
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2011/12/...
Schools are places of class definition for sure, its the way kids are, the jocks, the bullies, acceptance based on appearance, grades, clothes and the lot. What is coming out is the outside kids, kids that have little acceptance or value given, become the shooters. My point is that this is a failure of the family and an anti-God environment. Instead they are filled with evil things. Its not complicated. Man has a need for God and the assurance that things will work out - hope. I was not raised in a Christian home, was brainwashed into believing evolution as the answer. I found later what had happened to me, and that we have a place for God in our lives. You are known to Him in every way ,the Bible teaches - "every hair on your head is counted". When this piece is in it's rightful place, though I am in no way perfect, Christ says; "Peace to You!" (for all of us) and;
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS".
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
God created us and make's the rules, and is not the angry judge people make Him out to be. We live in the age of Grace now, but society suffers from the lack of His love and moral values. One of the major writers in the Bible was Luke, a doctor. Gods gift of healing was emptied into Paul and others for a time as proof of the Message but not to Luke as far as we know. He (Paul) was walking around emptying hospitals for a time. "and he healed them all". Luke is proof that the Gospel is a message of Spirit, the promise of answered prayer and hope for eternity, a relationship with God, not faith healing on command.
Ahh so nothing to do with zinc deficiency then, fair enough

By the way, games are not real life.

Nope, some man has a need to cling on to a god crutch, most don’t. Just because you need that crutch does not mean you have the right to cripple everyone else with lies.

I was raised in a christian home and christians drove me out of christianity, thank goodness, that allowed be to begin thinking for myself.

The babble also teaches that your god was the cause of the first recorded genocide, the first recorded mass murder and committed child murder, It also teaches that you con condones slavery and rape.

Nice side stepping by the way - NOT

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#95204 Jul 10, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh so nothing to do with zinc deficiency then, fair enough
By the way, games are not real life.
Nope, some man has a need to cling on to a god crutch, most don’t. Just because you need that crutch does not mean you have the right to cripple everyone else with lies.
I was raised in a christian home and christians drove me out of christianity, thank goodness, that allowed be to begin thinking for myself.
The babble also teaches that your god was the cause of the first recorded genocide, the first recorded mass murder and committed child murder, It also teaches that you con condones slavery and rape.
Nice side stepping by the way - NOT
It doesn't take a video game to confirm "garbage in/garbage out."
Crusades, witch trials, inquisitions, fire and brimstone preachers... "Onward Christian Soldiers"? It has always been my contention that the devout are brain damaged. How are your hippocampus and parietal lobes doing, SBT?

SBT
Level 2

Since: Jun 13

United States

#95206 Jul 10, 2013
MikeF wrote:
I'll take some exception to this:
<quoted text>
First, where do you get the idea that science was telling them their existence is near meaningless or to live life like there is no tomorrow? I don't doubt that there may be some over-the-top scientist who might make such a claim but where is the the position of science as a discipline?
Isn't it just as possible that in learning science (AKA reality) that they may have been depressed on learning that much of what they have been taught by religion wasn't true?
<quoted text>
Science's fault?
<quoted text>
Science's fault?
<quoted text>
Science's fault?
<quoted text>
Science's fault?
<quoted text>
Science's fault?
<quoted text>
Whoa! Hold on! Where exactly is the compassionate lobe?
<quoted text>
So abuse, divorce, not being athletic, not being in the "in" crowd and watching crappy programs is all the fault of science. Sorry but I doubt even your doctor friend would take such a silly and simplistic approach to a complex problem.
BTW, you are ignoring the influence of the recent trend in decreasing the number of prescriptions for anti-depressants (such as Prozac).
<quoted text>
It's not.
<quoted text>
Enlighten me. In all the years of my Christian upbringing, I've never read the commandment that says creation took six days. Was that number 11?
<quoted text>
So if you believe in an afterlife, life is swell. Uh-huh.
Has it ever crossed you mind that those of us who do not believe there is an afterlife that life becomes even more precious? Has it ever occurred to you that not believing in an afterlife means we are all in this together and only mankind will look out for mankind?
I expect not. We all fit neatly into your little pigeon hole.
Chimney and I had a thread going that led down this path. The whole point is marginalized kids are looking for answers, mindless chemical soup to man over supposed Bil/Year is failing them. It should, like a machine, if I put oil in tires and sand in the gas tank things will come undone quickly. The same for people. They need what the Maker designed them for to be complete.

No.1 thing I did learn was that people need acceptance, my kids and wife need grace and to know I have them in first place. They need boundaries as we all do, but not performance-based acceptance, like, do these things, don't do these things and God will accept you. That's the failure. Christ came to offer life as a gift, and God's favor can't be earned by performance. I try to live like I am entering Heaven today. That the choices I make = the servant of God I aspire to be. I will admit freely I am a failure much of the time, but always learning and reaching higher.

I am no better a person than any here, for some reason God opened up to me, I did nothing to recieve that gift. I am glad I do, first, I wouldn't be here to bug you guys and second I would be a very low and nasty ego person to know.

I will tell you I have stood on the stones, seen the fossil beds, been underground and flew the mtns. This planet has gone through a terrible flood judgment. In years at college not one prof could comeup with anything to contradict what I have presented here. I'm not on some political Campaign to push my faith. I will say it plainly, I am here to get people to think, and save themselves before it's too late.

"Just as in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be", This time not on a donkey, I will tell you that.

Does anyone realize here that both the Jews and the Islamics are in high-pitch fever over this Messiah coming stuff? Does anyone get what this marginalizing of Israel means? now even by US? How Syria, Iran and the Russians play into this?? They want Jerusalem, and the last battle is shaping up in fine form. It was even quoted in the UN recently they need to deal with the "Jewish Question". Thats the same term Hitler used, and the Bible warns that the last days will be signified hereto.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#95207 Jul 11, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Chimney and I had a thread going that led down this path. The whole point is marginalized kids are looking for answers, mindless chemical soup to man over supposed Bil/Year is failing them. It should, like a machine, if I put oil in tires and sand in the gas tank things will come undone quickly. The same for people. They need what the Maker designed them for to be complete.
No.1 thing I did learn was that people need acceptance, my kids and wife need grace and to know I have them in first place. They need boundaries as we all do, but not performance-based acceptance, like, do these things, don't do these things and God will accept you. That's the failure. Christ came to offer life as a gift, and God's favor can't be earned by performance. I try to live like I am entering Heaven today. That the choices I make = the servant of God I aspire to be. I will admit freely I am a failure much of the time, but always learning and reaching higher.
I am no better a person than any here, for some reason God opened up to me, I did nothing to recieve that gift. I am glad I do, first, I wouldn't be here to bug you guys and second I would be a very low and nasty ego person to know.
I will tell you I have stood on the stones, seen the fossil beds, been underground and flew the mtns. This planet has gone through a terrible flood judgment. In years at college not one prof could comeup with anything to contradict what I have presented here. I'm not on some political Campaign to push my faith. I will say it plainly, I am here to get people to think, and save themselves before it's too late.
"Just as in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be", This time not on a donkey, I will tell you that.
Does anyone realize here that both the Jews and the Islamics are in high-pitch fever over this Messiah coming stuff? Does anyone get what this marginalizing of Israel means? now even by US? How Syria, Iran and the Russians play into this?? They want Jerusalem, and the last battle is shaping up in fine form. It was even quoted in the UN recently they need to deal with the "Jewish Question". Thats the same term Hitler used, and the Bible warns that the last days will be signified hereto.
Been off this thread for a few days but reconnecting here. You are placing great emphasis on supposed "atheistic lack of meaning" in your assessment of suicides and crazed behaviour in youth.

I think you are looking in the wrong place. Whenever I see US TV or hear from US friends about school over there, its nuts. The "Prom", homecoming Queen, Football heroes, nerds, this and that. Its just a huge popularity contest and of course by definition such things are more exclusive than inclusive.

Hey, we had tons of school sports, we had school dances, we had scholarship winners, and so on. But not this over pressurised phony drama your schools seem to have. Somehow, it was naturally assumed that everyone had something to offer, that they had intrinsic value.

And very few people in my country are particularly religious. Few of my friends had any kind of Christian belief. Yet they went on to live good and happy lives.

If you build a society on the basis of winners and losers as rigorously as the USA seems to do, you are going to get depressed and angry people.

Perhaps, after all, that is what the church wants. Such people are far better prospects for church brainwashing than happy, well adjusted people. Who is going to respond most strongly to the inclusiveness, forgiveness, and sense of community of the local church? Whether its message is true or false hardly matters. Keep 'em coming, lets get ready for the PROM so we can show everyone who the WINNERS are and laugh at the Loooosers.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

Sao Paulo

#95208 Jul 11, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Been off this thread for a few days but reconnecting here. You are placing great emphasis on supposed "atheistic lack of meaning" in your assessment of suicides and crazed behaviour in youth.
I think you are looking in the wrong place. Whenever I see US TV or hear from US friends about school over there, its nuts. The "Prom", homecoming Queen, Football heroes, nerds, this and that. Its just a huge popularity contest and of course by definition such things are more exclusive than inclusive.
Hey, we had tons of school sports, we had school dances, we had scholarship winners, and so on. But not this over pressurised phony drama your schools seem to have. Somehow, it was naturally assumed that everyone had something to offer, that they had intrinsic value.
And very few people in my country are particularly religious. Few of my friends had any kind of Christian belief. Yet they went on to live good and happy lives.
If you build a society on the basis of winners and losers as rigorously as the USA seems to do, you are going to get depressed and angry people.
Perhaps, after all, that is what the church wants. Such people are far better prospects for church brainwashing than happy, well adjusted people. Who is going to respond most strongly to the inclusiveness, forgiveness, and sense of community of the local church? Whether its message is true or false hardly matters. Keep 'em coming, lets get ready for the PROM so we can show everyone who the WINNERS are and laugh at the Loooosers.
Some very good points Chimney, but alot of what foreigners see is Hollywood exaggeration. My entire education was at schools in the US, and there were many. In my personal experiences I have not witnessed such "drama" as is portrayed by Hollywood. Sure, you've got the subdivisions such as jocks, geeks, stoners, and such, but you've also got the majority who are students interested in learning and are not bothered at all by these groups. There is peer pressure to a certain extent, but I don't think it's any different from other countries.

Other contributing factors such as increase in violence, population, available communications, etc. should also be considered. It's a very complex environment which certainly deserves more attention from the scientific community. If some of these troubled teens look to religion as a crutch, then all the power to them. Maybe it's the best solution for them, but as SBT believes, it is still not a reason to push creationalism in school. Religion should be an individual belief, and not part of an academic agenda. I would not go to a church to seek knowledge on quantum mechanics, and I would not go to school to seek the word of God.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#95209 Jul 11, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Chimney and I had a thread going that led down this path. The whole point is marginalized kids are looking for answers, mindless chemical soup to man over supposed Bil/Year is failing them...


And right here is where I gave up. If you actually think your silly "soup to man" idea is what is driving kids to murder and suicide, then I'll have to relegate you to the clueless bin. It is patently absurd to think that ToE or evolution itself is foremost in the minds of teenagers, you're so far off the mark it isn't even worth discussing. I doubt you'd find 1 out of 1000 who would even mention the concept as significant.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#95210 Jul 11, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Well CM, I appreciate you running my thoughts down and responding the way you have. I know an expert that deals with youth and the physiological effects in a developing brain, and he has wrote books and made a careful study of these youth "shooters" (murder suicide). In most every case, the front lobe showed constriction. As the study below strongly suggests, flooding a young brain with violence is damaging to social interaction.
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2011/12/...
Schools are places of class definition for sure, its the way kids are, the jocks, the bullies, acceptance based on appearance, grades, clothes and the lot. What is coming out is the outside kids, kids that have little acceptance or value given, become the shooters. My point is that this is a failure of the family and an anti-God environment. Instead they are filled with evil things. Its not complicated. Man has a need for God and the assurance that things will work out - hope. I was not raised in a Christian home, was brainwashed into believing evolution as the answer. I found later what had happened to me, and that we have a place for God in our lives. You are known to Him in every way ,the Bible teaches - "every hair on your head is counted". When this piece is in it's rightful place, though I am in no way perfect, Christ says; "Peace to You!" (for all of us) and;
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS".
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
God created us and make's the rules, and is not the angry judge people make Him out to be. We live in the age of Grace now, but society suffers from the lack of His love and moral values. One of the major writers in the Bible was Luke, a doctor. Gods gift of healing was emptied into Paul and others for a time as proof of the Message but not to Luke as far as we know. He (Paul) was walking around emptying hospitals for a time. "and he healed them all". Luke is proof that the Gospel is a message of Spirit, the promise of answered prayer and hope for eternity, a relationship with God, not faith healing on command.
For someone with a bankrupt understanding of science and twisted views, you sure know a lot of alleged experts. Since far fewer children turn into mass killers, than there are that are spending large blocks of time consuming violent content, there must be something else about these specific individuals that lead to the negative behavior. Have they looked at the effects of being forced into a religious belief that constantly chastises them for even the most trivial negative thought?

Since the slabs of pseudoscience swiss cheese you were serving didn't sell, I guess it must be time to whip out the apologetics and judgment.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#95211 Jul 11, 2013
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
Some very good points Chimney, but alot of what foreigners see is Hollywood exaggeration. My entire education was at schools in the US, and there were many. In my personal experiences I have not witnessed such "drama" as is portrayed by Hollywood. Sure, you've got the subdivisions such as jocks, geeks, stoners, and such, but you've also got the majority who are students interested in learning and are not bothered at all by these groups. There is peer pressure to a certain extent, but I don't think it's any different from other countries.
Or period. While there are differences in today's schools from yesteryear, ist is more a difference of degree. We had the same jocks, geeks and so on (stoners were an emerging category at the time) and in-crowds 50-60 years ago just as we do today.

I also find it difficult to place excessive blame on these difference as if they have become so much more important now than before. Especially in light of the "No Child Left Behind" philosophy prevalent today and de-emphasis on winner and losers.

The Hollywood comment is right on the mark, BTW.
JM_Brazil wrote:
Other contributing factors such as increase in violence, population, available communications, etc. should also be considered. It's a very complex environment which certainly deserves more attention from the scientific community.
And more attention from the parents. Parental involvement seems to be at a all time low coupled with the widespread belief that their kids are always right and any failure is the failure of the educational system.

We once had a kid arrested for bringing a loaded 9mm to school. When the parents were notified, they complained that we must have a very bad school (we didn't, by any measure) that their son needed to bring a weapon. WTF???

(I was a teacher in that high school so this isn't second hand information)
JM_Brazil wrote:
If some of these troubled teens look to religion as a crutch, then all the power to them. Maybe it's the best solution for them, but as SBT believes, it is still not a reason to push creationalism in school. Religion should be an individual belief, and not part of an academic agenda. I would not go to a church to seek knowledge on quantum mechanics, and I would not go to school to seek the word of God.
Agreed.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#95212 Jul 11, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>

And more attention from the parents. Parental involvement seems to be at a all time low coupled with the widespread belief that their kids are always right and any failure is the failure of the educational system.
Children who were babysat by television raised children on television and video games who are now raising their children by television, video games and internet.
What conclusions should be drawn?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#95213 Jul 11, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
Children who were babysat by television raised children on television and video games who are now raising their children by television, video games and internet.
What conclusions should be drawn?
Electronics, bad.

Bicycles and baseball, good.

:-)

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#95214 Jul 11, 2013
JM_Brazil wrote:
<quoted text>
Some very good points Chimney, but alot of what foreigners see is Hollywood exaggeration. My entire education was at schools in the US, and there were many. In my personal experiences I have not witnessed such "drama" as is portrayed by Hollywood. Sure, you've got the subdivisions such as jocks, geeks, stoners, and such, but you've also got the majority who are students interested in learning and are not bothered at all by these groups. There is peer pressure to a certain extent, but I don't think it's any different from other countries.
Other contributing factors such as increase in violence, population, available communications, etc. should also be considered. It's a very complex environment which certainly deserves more attention from the scientific community. If some of these troubled teens look to religion as a crutch, then all the power to them. Maybe it's the best solution for them, but as SBT believes, it is still not a reason to push creationalism in school. Religion should be an individual belief, and not part of an academic agenda. I would not go to a church to seek knowledge on quantum mechanics, and I would not go to school to seek the word of God.
Maybe so, but I even recall US exchange students at my high school in NZ and they were surprised at how inclusive it was. We noted how they were quite superficial in their concerns. I don't mean they were superficial people, but its a quality. Too much makeup on the girls, hard to explain. We were sports mad, but the first "jock" I ever met who was into working out to "build his pecs" rather than improve his rugby or swimming or sprinting like we were was an American exchange student. Maybe he was planning to impress everyone when he returned home.

I would suggest that the exaggerated hollywood version still reveals an underlying truth about school in the USA. Admittedly, I do not have first hand experience, but I do know what Americans notice once they are out of that environment.

But I won't belabour the point any more. The underlying one was that SBT's claims that the alienation and lack of meaning that he sees driven by evolution and "atheism" are due to different factors.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#95215 Jul 11, 2013
JM_Brazil wrote:
Other contributing factors such as increase in violence, population, available communications, etc. should also be considered. It's a very complex environment which certainly deserves more attention from the scientific community. If some of these troubled teens look to religion as a crutch, then all the power to them. Maybe it's the best solution for them, but as SBT believes, it is still not a reason to push creationalism in school. Religion should be an individual belief, and not part of an academic agenda. I would not go to a church to seek knowledge on quantum mechanics, and I would not go to school to seek the word of God.
I guess this part of your post really hits my point directly. What are the real factors at play here?

BTW I am not a militant atheist and have no problem with people believing what they like. I just object to corrupting science teaching with religious dogma.

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