Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 168953 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Valley Village, CA

#95178 Jul 8, 2013
replaytime wrote:
You still are avoiding the question.
I don't know what question you specifically think he's avoiding, but I'd like to pose one to you:

Are you genetically identical to every person you're related to? Or do you have differences?

“Rising”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Milky Way

#95179 Jul 8, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't think so. We understand that there is a brain, and that complicated things go on there. But we have no idea how an actual consciousness arises from that, how there is an "I" that experiences blue and green and the subjective taste of peanut butter or the feel of a hand running through your hair.
I could describe red to a blind man in terms of wavelengths of light but he would still have no idea what it means to experience RED.
That is a mystery science is not even close to explaining. Calling it the brain is merely a marker for our lack of understanding.
And yes, you do dogmatically overstate the true understanding of science at times.
To say we don't any idea is understating it though Chimney, we do know much about how the neural correlates of consciousness developed memory and the senses make us conscious, the mystery is how it first arose. The advent of consciousness is as baffling as the advent of life itself, and indeed synonymous one with the other, if we ever solve how one came to be, we will have solved the other. The answer we as best can tell is even more mysterious , how did DNA come to be?
I don't propose it was magically poofed into existence, but we are missing a piece to the puzzle to figure it out. Which I can only guess has something to do with the special abilities or organic matter and the carbon atom.
Ordinary Average Guy

Portland, OR

#95180 Jul 8, 2013
I'd like to find out who created the concept of evolution (it wasn't Charles Darwin, but someone who later on bastard eyes to his original ideas of natural selection) and once having decided who created evolution, accepting that evolution itself was created then we could study be evolution of creationism! Away from its most basic truths, to the much debated subject it is today. First came the creation of evolution, then came evolution of creation!

“Just because it is possible”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Doesn't mean it will happen.

#95181 Jul 8, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an acquaintance Dr that has a clinic with 100 or so other doctors and many more support staff. 20 years ago they were seeing hundreds of teens and a minor # of suicides, then it jumped, and jumped again to 1/month. They went back and started a more in-depth questioning of their patients. Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow. So you have a percentage of kids with low esteem, other damage in the family, abuse, divorce for 2 generations now and maybe not athletic, not in the "in" crowd, watching garbage and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe, and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide. This Dr jumped into the fray. If this Earth is young, as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days"), and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
I have spent time in Sweden, and have found as you said, but also an underlying sense of apathy and a hopelessness to get anywhere. Divorce rate is high, childbirth low and they seem to be tredding water. They often plied me with hopeful questions of how life was in the US all the time. They seemed stuck. My thoughts back to you, thanks.
A clinic with 100 or so doctors and support staff. Isn't that a hospital? Was this published anywhere? What country was this? This seems like a crock to me.

“Just because it is possible”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Doesn't mean it will happen.

#95182 Jul 8, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an acquaintance Dr that has a clinic with 100 or so other doctors and many more support staff. 20 years ago they were seeing hundreds of teens and a minor # of suicides, then it jumped, and jumped again to 1/month. They went back and started a more in-depth questioning of their patients. Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow. So you have a percentage of kids with low esteem, other damage in the family, abuse, divorce for 2 generations now and maybe not athletic, not in the "in" crowd, watching garbage and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe, and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide. This Dr jumped into the fray. If this Earth is young, as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days"), and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
I have spent time in Sweden, and have found as you said, but also an underlying sense of apathy and a hopelessness to get anywhere. Divorce rate is high, childbirth low and they seem to be tredding water. They often plied me with hopeful questions of how life was in the US all the time. They seemed stuck. My thoughts back to you, thanks.
I don't know these dudes, but I heard this story from a friend who was mad sick about it that it gave him headaches. Seems like he came across this situation where people were being persecuted for their beliefs. They were being harassed like feeder goldfish in a marine aquarium. Straight up. Anyway he says it wasn't long before they were being killed for their beliefs. By the time it was all said and done maybe something like 2000 people had been rounded up by this guy Torquemada, tortured and put to death. Now this is a true story even though I didn't see it myself. Now these people were feeling bad because this religion was telling them they were scum and their lives were worthless. So worthless that the religion put them to death like rabid dogs. Real sick. I bet you can relate.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#95183 Jul 8, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
To say we don't any idea is understating it though Chimney, we do know much about how the neural correlates of consciousness developed memory and the senses make us conscious, the mystery is how it first arose. The advent of consciousness is as baffling as the advent of life itself, and indeed synonymous one with the other, if we ever solve how one came to be, we will have solved the other. The answer we as best can tell is even more mysterious , how did DNA come to be?
I don't propose it was magically poofed into existence, but we are missing a piece to the puzzle to figure it out. Which I can only guess has something to do with the special abilities or organic matter and the carbon atom.
I reckon the mystery is deeper. I can imagine a program that responds to the environment correctly, that makes "intelligent" choices, that differentiates the sensor input of blue vs red, but has no inside... It that still does not touch the internal, conscious feeling I have, the sight of blue and red. Science and philosophers have done their best to explain WHY its a good idea, but not explained how IT can arise from carbon bonds. How, why, it can be there.

Of course...perhaps our own view of materialism is at fault and I could turn the whole argument inside out. We are conscious beings and the material world is merely our expression of what we internally experience. How we PICTURE carbon bonds is primary. But both views have to conform to what we experience.

Seems we experience evidence that accords with evolution, so our consciousness evolved too...

“Just because it is possible”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Doesn't mean it will happen.

#95184 Jul 8, 2013
Ordinary Average Guy wrote:
I'd like to find out who created the concept of evolution (it wasn't Charles Darwin, but someone who later on bastard eyes to his original ideas of natural selection) and once having decided who created evolution, accepting that evolution itself was created then we could study be evolution of creationism! Away from its most basic truths, to the much debated subject it is today. First came the creation of evolution, then came evolution of creation!
Evolution is a process of nature. Theory was formulated based on observations from nature as well as from human activities. The idea predates Darwin and was a part of Greek, Roman and Chinese philosophy.

The theory of today was synthesized by Darwin from earlier work. Darwin came up and added the original idea of natural selection to show what drives evolution. In the 1930's and 1940's the theory was synthesized with genetics to bring about the theory we use now. The theory has not varied from its basics, but has been brought up to date. It is only much debated by those that fear it or don't understand it. Science generally accepts the theory as it stands now.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#95185 Jul 8, 2013
Ordinary Average Guy wrote:
I'd like to find out who created the concept of evolution (it wasn't Charles Darwin, but someone who later on bastard eyes to his original ideas of natural selection) and once having decided who created evolution, accepting that evolution itself was created then we could study be evolution of creationism! Away from its most basic truths, to the much debated subject it is today. First came the creation of evolution, then came evolution of creation!
I think you are taking the wrong tack. Evolution was known to occur and the Darwin provided a theory to explain HOW evolution could occur. With minor modifications, his theory has proven to be extremely successful in that.

“Rising”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Milky Way

#95186 Jul 8, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I reckon the mystery is deeper. I can imagine a program that responds to the environment correctly, that makes "intelligent" choices, that differentiates the sensor input of blue vs red, but has no inside... It that still does not touch the internal, conscious feeling I have, the sight of blue and red. Science and philosophers have done their best to explain WHY its a good idea, but not explained how IT can arise from carbon bonds. How, why, it can be there.
Of course...perhaps our own view of materialism is at fault and I could turn the whole argument inside out. We are conscious beings and the material world is merely our expression of what we internally experience. How we PICTURE carbon bonds is primary. But both views have to conform to what we experience.
Seems we experience evidence that accords with evolution, so our consciousness evolved too...
Exactly and is still evolving.

Level 7

Since: Sep 07

Valley Village, CA

#95187 Jul 8, 2013
Ordinary Average Guy wrote:
I'd like to find out who created the concept of evolution (it wasn't Charles Darwin, but someone who later on bastard eyes to his original ideas of natural selection) and once having decided who created evolution, accepting that evolution itself was created then we could study be evolution of creationism! Away from its most basic truths, to the much debated subject it is today. First came the creation of evolution, then came evolution of creation!
Saying that an idea is "created" relegates all knowledge to the point of opinion.

If I kill you, you aren't actually dead. Someone finds you and claims that you are dead. They have "created" the "idea" of you being dead. Therefore, THEY are the guilty party in your demise.

Since: Jul 13

Colorado Springs, CO

#95188 Jul 8, 2013
So tell me, all you creationism fans, which creation story would you like taught? There are literally hundreds out there. That's right. Not only Christianity has a creation story and many of them predate Genesis.

Let's be honest here. What most of you who say you want creationism in the schools are saying is that you want the Jewish/Christian creation story taught.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#95189 Jul 8, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
KK your dogmatism shows in this and many other posts. Its hard, since we basically agree, to call you up on it but you do have a consistent record of overstating the claims of science.
1. Life changes over time, evolves. Yes, we have evidence of both, though they are not quite the same thing.
2. The universe is expanding...yes...which means it had to be very small at one point...not necessarily. Luckily though, we have other evidence that suggests this.
3. Life is a collection of chemical properties. Well, the sustenance of living organisms is, we can say with confidence. However, few who argue the point would confine their arguments to Krebs cycle and photosynthesis. They might ask how it is we are conscious. And no science to date can answer that adequately.
The proper mode of scientific thinking is humility.
Its kinda religious that way!
Well said.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#95190 Jul 8, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you are taking the wrong tack. Evolution was known to occur and the Darwin provided a theory to explain HOW evolution could occur. With minor modifications, his theory has proven to be extremely successful in that.
Chimney, did you see the story about a forest of cypress trees discovered off the coast of Alabama in the gulf? Fascinating stuff!, the trees were so perfectly preserved that when cut you could smell the sap, evidently they were buried long ago and hurricane Katrina uncovered them. I believe Livescience.com has it.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#95191 Jul 9, 2013
Ordinary Average Guy wrote:
I'd like to find out who created the concept of evolution (it wasn't Charles Darwin, but someone who later on bastard eyes to his original ideas of natural selection) and once having decided who created evolution, accepting that evolution itself was created then we could study be evolution of creationism! Away from its most basic truths, to the much debated subject it is today. First came the creation of evolution, then came evolution of creation!
Evolution has been speculated on since the times if the ancient Chinese and Greeks (perhaps, but not provably even before then). In the philosophical idea of descent with modification. Aristotle theorised that all living things desire to move from the lower to the higher.

The Romans had more or less the same ideas, much of Roman scientific thinking being based on earlier Greek ideas. Roman road building and building works brought up fossils that were discussed in the light of “Greek” wisdom.

Not until the medieval dominance of cristianity did evolution become “out of fashion” in favour for the (more profitable for priests) line “all living things came into existence in unchanging forms due to divine will”
.
This was of course not universally accepted, there is a story of a 13th century hostelry that attracted customers with a fossilised femur dredged from the Thames, the fossil bone was bigger than a man, it’s very existence cast doubt on the priestly longing for wealth.

Between this period and the rise of the modern theory of evolution there were many (for want of a better word) biologists, who looked at old, fossilised bones and compared them to the skeletons of currently living creatures.

In the late 1700’s the German philosopher Immanuel Kant developed a theory of descent that is fairly close to modern understanding.

Kant’s work along work that of Carolus Linnaeus, Erasmus Darwin (Charles Darwins granbdfather), Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, Thomas Malthus and others inspired Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace. However Wallace was a spiritualist and his involvement in that movement served to downplay his role in the discovery of natural selection

From those early beginnings observation in several unrelated scientific fields have confirmed the theory of evolution to the extent that it is now known to be fact.

So there ya go, It started about the same time, perhaps even before genesis was scratched on to papyrus by a bunch of bronze age goat herders.

So who ya going to blame for blowing the “goddidit by magic” boat out of the water?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#95192 Jul 9, 2013
I'll take some exception to this:
SBT wrote:
Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow.
First, where do you get the idea that science was telling them their existence is near meaningless or to live life like there is no tomorrow? I don't doubt that there may be some over-the-top scientist who might make such a claim but where is the the position of science as a discipline?

Isn't it just as possible that in learning science (AKA reality) that they may have been depressed on learning that much of what they have been taught by religion wasn't true?
SBT wrote:
abuse
Science's fault?
SBT wrote:
divorce
Science's fault?
SBT wrote:
not athletic
Science's fault?
SBT wrote:
not in the "in" crowd
Science's fault?
SBT wrote:
watching garbage
Science's fault?
SBT wrote:
and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe
Whoa! Hold on! Where exactly is the compassionate lobe?
SBT wrote:
and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide.
So abuse, divorce, not being athletic, not being in the "in" crowd and watching crappy programs is all the fault of science. Sorry but I doubt even your doctor friend would take such a silly and simplistic approach to a complex problem.

BTW, you are ignoring the influence of the recent trend in decreasing the number of prescriptions for anti-depressants (such as Prozac).
SBT wrote:
If this Earth is young...
It's not.
SBT wrote:
...as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days")
Enlighten me. In all the years of my Christian upbringing, I've never read the commandment that says creation took six days. Was that number 11?
SBT wrote:
...and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
So if you believe in an afterlife, life is swell. Uh-huh.

Has it ever crossed you mind that those of us who do not believe there is an afterlife that life becomes even more precious? Has it ever occurred to you that not believing in an afterlife means we are all in this together and only mankind will look out for mankind?

I expect not. We all fit neatly into your little pigeon hole.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#95194 Jul 9, 2013
MikeF wrote:
I'll take some exception to this:
<quoted text>
First, where do you get the idea that science was telling them their existence is near meaningless or to live life like there is no tomorrow? I don't doubt that there may be some over-the-top scientist who might make such a claim but where is the the position of science as a discipline?
some people need others to give meaning to their existence. the rest of us give our own lives their meaning.

the difference between sheeple and free thinkers...
Elohim

Branford, CT

#95195 Jul 9, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an acquaintance Dr that has a clinic with 100 or so other doctors and many more support staff. 20 years ago they were seeing hundreds of teens and a minor # of suicides, then it jumped, and jumped again to 1/month. They went back and started a more in-depth questioning of their patients. Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow. So you have a percentage of kids with low esteem, other damage in the family, abuse, divorce for 2 generations now and maybe not athletic, not in the "in" crowd, watching garbage and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe, and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide. This Dr jumped into the fray. If this Earth is young, as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days"), and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
I have spent time in Sweden, and have found as you said, but also an underlying sense of apathy and a hopelessness to get anywhere. Divorce rate is high, childbirth low and they seem to be tredding water. They often plied me with hopeful questions of how life was in the US all the time. They seemed stuck. My thoughts back to you, thanks.
How about a link? I call bullshit.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#95196 Jul 9, 2013
Elohim wrote:
<quoted text>How about a link? I call bullshit.
Huge bullshit, but then that is all that SBT has to offer...

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#95197 Jul 9, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't think so. We understand that there is a brain, and that complicated things go on there. But we have no idea how an actual consciousness arises from that, how there is an "I" that experiences blue and green and the subjective taste of peanut butter or the feel of a hand running through your hair.
I could describe red to a blind man in terms of wavelengths of light but he would still have no idea what it means to experience RED.
That is a mystery science is not even close to explaining. Calling it the brain is merely a marker for our lack of understanding.
And yes, you do dogmatically overstate the true understanding of science at times.
Thanks for admitting that you are being dogmatic. However, you are still posting nonsense.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#95198 Jul 10, 2013
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I have an acquaintance Dr that has a clinic with 100 or so other doctors and many more support staff. 20 years ago they were seeing hundreds of teens and a minor # of suicides, then it jumped, and jumped again to 1/month. They went back and started a more in-depth questioning of their patients. Self-worth was over the top poor, further questioning, "star stuff" and Sagan supported in the class by frog to man Godless evolution was a big factor. They felt their net worth was near zero because "science" was telling them their existence is near meaningless so live life now like there is no tommorrow. So you have a percentage of kids with low esteem, other damage in the family, abuse, divorce for 2 generations now and maybe not athletic, not in the "in" crowd, watching garbage and further damaging their God given compassionate lobe, and the end result is not only suicide, but murder/suicide. This Dr jumped into the fray. If this Earth is young, as I feel it is as the Ten Commandments teach ("in six days"), and heaven is a reachable goal, you see life becomes more vibrant, finite, worth living and serving mankind for.
I have spent time in Sweden, and have found as you said, but also an underlying sense of apathy and a hopelessness to get anywhere. Divorce rate is high, childbirth low and they seem to be tredding water. They often plied me with hopeful questions of how life was in the US all the time. They seemed stuck. My thoughts back to you, thanks.
No self respecting medical man (unless desirously deranged by goddidit and madly effected by religious hallucination) would pose such a leading and obviously BS question as frog to man. The very idea shows the ignorance of the doctor you are hyping.

FYI, I know and associate with several doctors, Last night I showed your post to a couple of them and they were horrified. Not only with the subject of the questions but the medical ethics of posing such a bigoted questionnaire would see your acquaintance struck off from practice here in the UK.

I have been to the US (several times) and the problems there are reflections of the problems in Sweden, France, the UK and most elsewhere. They are problems of society, unemployment etc that people with much more intelligence and resources than you have attempted to fix but failed. Goddidit by magic is not a magic bullet, it is just a sugar coating that deceives those who want to be deceived, the problems still exist whether you go to church or not.

I do assume however that your doctor acquaintance practices in the babble belt or some other highly religious area of the US. This of course could account for the limited nature of his intellect and the preponderance of depression in his pupils/patents.

Personally I am perfectly content that I know where I came from, that I was once a tiny part of a star (or stars) and what will happen to my dust in millions/billion of years hence. Most of the people I know feel the same way. The very thought of “d’oh we don’t know and don’t understand so must believe a mythical entity did it with magic” is really quite depressing and fit only for the deliberately ignorant.

You are welcome to the faith healing of your doctor acquaintance, me I’ll stick with ethical practice and real scientific medicine.

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