Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89429 May 18, 2013
creationist wrote:
<quoted text> actually I'm pretty shire he did. Check the Bible. And the were created each in their own way.
The Bible is irrelevant. It is not a science book. It should not be treated as such.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89430 May 18, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Previous Claim: CD011.1 | List of Claims | Next Claim: CD011.3
----------
Claim CD011.2:
Widely different radiocarbon dates are obtained from the same frozen mammoths. Different parts of the Vollosovitch mammoth date to 29,500 and 44,000 years before present (BP). One part of Dima, a frozen baby mammoth, was 40,000, another part 26,000, and wood immediately around it was 9-10,000 BP. Two parts of the Fairbanks Creek mammoth date to 15,380 and 21,300 BP.
Source:
Brown, Walt, 2001. In the beginning: Compelling evidence for creation and the Flood (7th ed.) Center for Scientific Creation. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Fro...
Hovind, Kent, n.d. Doesn't carbon dating or potassium argon dating prove the Earth is millions of years old? http://www.drdino.com/QandA/index.jsp...
Response:
1. The dates come from different mammoths. The reference cited by Brown and cribbed by Hovind likely refers only to a Fairbanks mammoth, which Brown also mentions (Péwé 1975, 30). The 15,380 and 21,300 BP dates come from separate mammoths, and it is noted that the 21,300 date is invalid because it comes from a hide soaked in glycerin. It is uncertain what is Brown's source for the 29,500 and 44,000 dates.
Ukraintseva (1993) reviews the Kirgilyakh mammoth, also known as Dima, and cites three dates obtained for it. All are around 40,000 years before present. Dates for deposits surrounding the mammoth are consistent with dates for the mammoth.
References:
1. Péwé, Troy L., 1975. Quaternary stratigraphic nomenclature in unglaciated Central Alaska. U. S. Geological Survey Professional Paper 862.
2. Ukraintseva, V. V., 1993. Vegetation Cover and Environment of the "Mammoth Epoch" in Siberia. Hot Springs, SD: Mammoth Site of Hot Springs of South Dakota
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_2...
Ah, Walt Brown and Kent Hovind. Total whacko's both. Non-scientists both.

It's also worth noting that Brown in his references has used Norm Geisler who thinks UFO's are agents of Satan.

Oh, and referenced Banana-man Ray Comfort.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89431 May 18, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
Intelligent Design Creation theory should include explanations for the beginning of our universe with a body of principles belonging to the subject of it's design. What caused our universe to come into being? Why is our universe arranged and designated to do what it does? Something that is created will show signs of originality of thought and will have meaningful forms. Our universe and Earth shows all the signs of having a Creator.
I agree. Unfortunately doesn't HAVE those explanations. Which is why it's not a theory.(shrug)
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#89432 May 18, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>what "he"? your god is a proven myth and no other god has one single shred of evidence to show it might possibly even exist...
you are basing your concept on a proven myth.
The evidence clearly shows that things are built and reproduced in nature following patterns and the God of the Bible shows patterns as to how things are to be built and made.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Level 1

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#89433 May 18, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>The facts are that systems are programed and they must be maintained and conform to familiar patterns.
Gravity is a system, like the entire Universe that maintaines itself. There is no programmer because the Universe is not programed. It does just fine with out any behind the scenes programmer.

If this "creator" that you alledge does not need a creator then the Universe has always existed and does not need one either.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Level 1

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#89434 May 18, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible is irrelevant. It is not a science book. It should not be treated as such.
What is important about the Bible is that it is so full of errors that it can not be trusted on any subject.

Rom.3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
1Kgs. 8:46 "...for there is no man that sinneth not,...."
Prov.20:9 "Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?"
Eccl. 7:23 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."
Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Rom. 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
(Also 1 John 1:8 & 10, Rom. 3:12, 5:12, Gal. 3:22)

Versus

Gen. 6:9 "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 "...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" (Job 2:3)
Gen. 7:1 "And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:5-6 "In the days of Herod, the king of Judaea,there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abia: andhe had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.(RSV)

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Level 1

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#89435 May 18, 2013
The Great Iron Dictator wrote:
<quoted text>What about Secular Bigotry by People like you?
I mean it si not Me who lick the ass of other People,but people like you!
I can't tell any dfference between what comes out of your mouth and what comes out of your azz.

GOD: 2 Kings 18:27, "...that they may eat their own dung and drink their own pisss with you..."
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89436 May 18, 2013
HTS wrote:
Intelligence is the only observable force in the universe capable of creating complexity.
False. I have demonstrated otherwise on numerous occasions, never once being addressed. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
The existence of the profound complexity of living systems offers irrefutable evidence of intelligent design.
How so? How is complexity measured? Who or what is the designer and how can we tell? What exactly did it do? Where did it do it? When did it do it? What mechanisms did it use to do whatever it is you think it did and how can we tell? What exactly IS the "scientific theory" of ID?

There's a reason you're suffering from deja-vu at this moment.

The fact you have been refuted every time without fail means you have violated the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
A conclusion that random forces can create complex systems
I can't count how many times you've trotted out this dishonest caricature, since natural forces are NOT random. But that does not automatically constitute intelligence either. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
can only be explained by a pre-commitment to the religion of atheism.
Every time you mention atheism you are admitting your objections to reality are because you think Goddidit with magic. The fact you think your baseless religious opinions are relevant to science violates the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
It is obvious that the atheists on this forum are religiously committed to their worldview because they willfully abandon scientific observation in favor of evo-fairytales of a primordial soup, worms evolving into humans, etc.
Your caricatures do not address our posts nor the actual evidence and theory of evolution. Since you constantly dodge that which is presented the validity of evolution remains unaffected. You claiming otherwise violates the law of non-contradiction.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Level 1

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#89437 May 18, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>The evidence clearly shows that things are built and reproduced in nature following patterns and the God of the Bible shows patterns as to how things are to be built and made.
One of great weaknesses of the Bible lies in the fact that it contains tangible mechanisms by which to refute its truthfulness. Within it pages are verses which can be used to test the book's validity. They can be generally grouped under two broad headings--those involving tremendous powers given to believers and those involving powers attendant to prayer and requests. The most prominent verses within the first category are Mark 16:17-18, which says, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lays hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Many true believers have handled deadly snakes and drunk deadly poisons only to find the Bible is both erroneous and dangerous. Courts in Illinois, Tennessee, and elsewhere have repeatedly stopped practices of this nature because of the treat to life. Ask believers to drink poison or handle deadly snakes and one will quickly realize the extent to which even they do not take the book seriously. Mark 16:17-18 clearly states what they can do if they believe. Put them to the test, however, and you will witness a lot of rationalizing.

Other verses within the first category promise unbelievable powers to those with faith: "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you"--Matt. 17:20 and "If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamore tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you"--Luke 17:6. Also note Matt. 21:21. Yet, despite promises of tremendous strength, those with the strongest faith are often the weakest, the most helpless individuals in society. They often resort to faith because all else has failed.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89438 May 18, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>No. A system must follow a pattern that has been shown.
Still don't care Mikey.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Level 1

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#89439 May 18, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>The evidence clearly shows that things are built and reproduced in nature following patterns and the God of the Bible shows patterns as to how things are to be built and made.
"If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you"--Matt. 17:20

If nothing is impossible for you FS, then convince me that BibleGod exists. Oh, and when I am convinced would you please move Mt. St. Helens into the Pacific Ocean.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#89440 May 18, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>The evidence clearly shows that things are built and reproduced in nature following patterns and the God of the Bible shows patterns as to how things are to be built and made.
Then why is it that 99% of all life that has existed on this planet is extinct?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89441 May 18, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
I said that intelligence is the only OBSERVED force that is proven capable of creating complexity.
Which is false. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.

How is "complexity" measured in an objective manner via the scientific method?
HTS wrote:
You observe the universe and ASSUME that no intelligence created it.
Science does not make that assumption either way. All it can do currently is point out (quite correctly) that there is no evidence of your enigmatic intelligent agent is even required. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
Random forces have no proven capacity to create complexity.
Natural forces are not random, but that does not mean they are the result of intelligence. You are creating a false dichotomy on which the entire basis of your arguments are based on. That is why you fail. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
I agree, let.s keep myths out of the discussion... Like the MYTH that natural selection can create complexity.
False. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Level 1

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#89442 May 18, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible is irrelevant. It is not a science book. It should not be treated as such.
Not a Science book, I am shocked!!!

•(a) the bat is a bird (Lev. 11:19, Deut. 14:11, 18);
•(b) Some fowls are four-footed (Lev. 11:20-21);
•(c) Some creeping insects have four legs.(Lev. 11:22-23);
•(d) Hares chew the cud (Lev. 11:6);
•(e) Conies chew the cud (Lev. 11:5);
•(f) Camels don't divide the hoof (Lev. 11:4);
•(g) The earth was formed out of and by means of water (2 Peter 3:5 RSV);
•(h) The earth rest on pillars (1 Sam. 2:8);
•(i) The earth won't be moved (1Chron. 16:30);
•(j) A hare does not divide the hoof (Deut. 14:7);
•(k) The rainbow is not as old as rain and sunshine (Gen. 9:13);
•(l) A mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds and grows into the greatest of all shrubs (Matt. 13:31-32 RSV);
•(m) Turtles have voices (Song of Sol. 2:12);
•(n) The earth has ends or edges (Job 37:3);
•(o) The earth has four corners (Isa. 11:12, Rev. 7:1);
•(p) Some 4-legged animals fly (Lev. 11:21);
•(q) The world's language didn't evolve but appeared suddenly (Gen. 11:6-9; and
•(r) A fetus can understand speech (Luke 1:44).
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89443 May 18, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>You have the evidence.
Yes we do. You do not. That is your problem.
HTS wrote:
Intelligence has been PROVEN to be capable of creating complexity.
Natural selection is IMAGINED to create complexity because God has been philosophically REJECTED.
Natural selection has been observed to be INCAPABLE of creating complexity.
This is not the case. Natural selection helps create complexity whether your god exists or not. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
HTS wrote:
What do you get after thousands of generations of fruitily experiments with fruit flies? New species with over traits? No, you get mutated fruit flies.
Your religion is the only obstacle that stands in the way of you acknowledging evidence.
Projection. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89444 May 18, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
Your recycled evo-babbling is pointless.
You are the one mired in religion...
Projection. I note that you still have not been able to address anyone's posts and merely continued with further denial.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89445 May 18, 2013
Satan is Jewish wrote:
<quoted text>This is GREATEST Proof that GOD is real!!
This is the truth...
This is real Genocide...
None of this is evidence of an invisible magical Jewish wizard that magically poofed the universe into existence.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89446 May 18, 2013
The Great Iron Dictator wrote:
<quoted text>Watch this video!!
This is proof!!!
It is spam. You have violated the law of non-contradiction.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89447 May 18, 2013
The Great Iron Dictator wrote:
<quoted text>Bolshevik Jews killed 65 Million Russians in USSR!!
JEWS control Mass Media in USA!
You are brainwash by Jewish media...
Wathc video at least 2 minutes,and you will know what I think!
What you think is irrelevant.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#89448 May 18, 2013
The Great Iron Dictator wrote:
<quoted text>Jews are NOT semitic!!
Jews Killing Palestinians...what is that?
Jewish Bolshevism or Jewish Fascism?
Jews want to push Gun Control like they did in USSR!
They want to make us SLAVES!!
This is fact!
Even if we pretend you are correct for a moment (for the sake of argument) it still has no relevance to the existence of an invisible magic Jew wizard or lack of same. It is in fact TOTALLY irrelevant to this thread.

So why do you hate kittens?

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