Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 172025 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#87703 Apr 25, 2013
My Portal wrote:
<quoted text>What facts are you refering to?
Our museums, text books and DNA labs are FULL of facts pointing toward evolution.
My Portal wrote:
<quoted text> Why are we not still evolving?
We ARE. Hadn't you better get at least a HS education on this subject before you open your yap?
bohart

Newport, TN

#87704 Apr 25, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>but it is not made up. we know all teh elements for life were here.
you have to make up out of whole cloth this mythical 'creator' for you magic to have happened...
Do you believe that randomly scattered elements can self assemble into the proper proportions, at the proper time and place and then erupt into life?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#87705 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe we were discussing simplicity based on the idea of Occams razor. To say that a hodge podge of ingrediants floating in a primordial sea came to life in some spasmostic eruption,not different than a miracle, that even the most brillant men of any age cannot comprehend how it occurred is not a simple answer.
You are conflating a simpleton's answer with a simple answer.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87706 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe that randomly scattered elements can self assemble into the proper proportions, at the proper time and place and then erupt into life?
sounds more plausible than a creator that we know doesn't exist...

“Rising”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Milky Way

#87707 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct, the simplist and most logical answer for life is a creator.A pool of dust and sludge requires too much faith.
Agreed, now where did this creator hide, or did it die? Must be dead huh? Cant see one from the front or the back porch.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87708 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe we were discussing simplicity based on the idea of Occams razor. To say that a hodge podge of ingrediants floating in a primordial sea came to life in some spasmostic eruption,not different than a miracle, that even the most brillant men of any age cannot comprehend how it occurred is not a simple answer.
occam's razor would preclude your creation fable from even being part of the discussion.

epic fail...

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87709 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe that randomly scattered elements can self assemble into the proper proportions, at the proper time and place and then erupt into life?
Since elements don't have wills, no.

However, can chemical reactions eventually lead to the formation of living organisms? Yes, since living organisms are actually continuous chemical reactions it's perfectly logical that we are the result of those same chemical reactions. Since all evidence suggests this, it is rational to assume such a sequence of reactions that can occur naturally must exist.

Do you have anymore stupid questions?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Indianapolis, IN

#87710 Apr 25, 2013
My Portal wrote:
<quoted text>What facts are you refering to? Why are we not still evolving?
We are.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/12/hum...

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87711 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe we were discussing simplicity based on the idea of Occams razor. To say that a hodge podge of ingrediants floating in a primordial sea came to life in some spasmostic eruption,not different than a miracle, that even the most brillant men of any age cannot comprehend how it occurred is not a simple answer.
Let's see, the simplest answer:

Natural Chemical Processes:

1. Natural chemical processes eventually lead to living organisms, such processes we already understand and are very simple and well understood.

"God dun it"

1. Some being that defies the laws of nature somehow sprung into existence.

2. This being somehow managed to start a universe that it is not part of.

3. This being managed to somehow guide the universe's formation without leaving any evidence.

4. This being then managed to somehow make all life and organize it in a manner that suggests natural processes, on one planet, among innumerable planets.

.... natural processes wins Occam's Razor.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87712 Apr 25, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's see, the simplest answer:
Natural Chemical Processes:
1. Natural chemical processes eventually lead to living organisms, such processes we already understand and are very simple and well understood.
"God dun it"
1. Some being that defies the laws of nature somehow sprung into existence.
2. This being somehow managed to start a universe that it is not part of.
3. This being managed to somehow guide the universe's formation without leaving any evidence.
4. This being then managed to somehow make all life and organize it in a manner that suggests natural processes, on one planet, among innumerable planets.
.... natural processes wins Occam's Razor.
the being didn't spring into existence, he was created by the all new ULTRA CREATOR!!! wipe away all your theological conundrums with all new ULTRA CREATOR!!!

call now, operators always have been, and always will be standing by...

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87713 Apr 25, 2013
sd_mi_70 wrote:
<quoted text>
All the answers I have found to be right are my copy of King James bible. So far there is nothing in there that science has dis-proven.
MUCH of your KJV Bible is dis-proven.

Sorry!

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87714 Apr 25, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>the being didn't spring into existence, he was created by the all new ULTRA CREATOR!!! wipe away all your theological conundrums with all new ULTRA CREATOR!!!
call now, operators always have been, and always will be standing by...
Related to the Super Devil?

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87715 Apr 25, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Related to the Super Devil?
that is a cheap, chinese produced knock off of our brand name.

remember kids, pirating is not a victimless crime!

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87716 Apr 25, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>that is a cheap, chinese produced knock off of our brand name.
remember kids, pirating is not a victimless crime!
No way, he was on the news, I saw pictures and everything.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87717 Apr 25, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
No way, he was on the news, I saw pictures and everything.
that was just Infinite Force in his/her alien mode. she was having a bad hair day...

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87718 Apr 25, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
On Behe, let a lawyer determine truth for you if you like, it doesn't change a thing, like a few other lawyers decided abortion was not killing and OK. He is still a best-seller and going strong. One of my sons-in-law recently spoke with a high level university PHD medical researcher who was profoundly impacted by his work, was asking alot or questions about God.
The entire establishments of the USSR and China feel the same way about evolution also, but I don't buy into dogma because of numbers.
I don't see how anything other than mere words invalidate Adam and Eve, we are here aren't we? That's one prooof. The mDNA is pretty forceful, thought to be junk one day and then from Eve another, what's next? This is not going well for your side.
Behind Intelligent Design, and trying to get creationist lies into public schools across America is Phillip E. Johnson. A LAWYER. He was a co-founder of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC) and is credited with establishing the wedge Strategy, which aims to change public opinion and scientific consensus, and seeks to convince the scientific community to allow a role for God in scientific theory.

As a member of the group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, a prominent AIDS denialist group,[Johnson has written that HIV does not cause AIDS. The scientific community considers Johnson's opinions on evolution and AIDS to be pseudoscience.

Behe may still be selling religious books, but I think he has a rather ‘iffy’ reputation as a scientist anymore.

You write:
“The entire establishments of the USSR and China feel the same way about evolution also, but I don't buy into dogma because of numbers.“

The entire establishment of the German Nazi party and Nazi Army, Navy, and Air Force used to buy into Christianity and totally rejected evolution also. What’s your point here??

Oh and by the way, the peoples of Russia and China are embracing religion in a big way now. It’s always just the leaders messing with people for their own ends.

You write:
“I don't see how anything other than mere words invalidate Adam and Eve, we are here aren't we? That's one prooof. The mDNA is pretty forceful, thought to be junk one day and then from Eve another, what's next? This is not going well for your side.

Of course it’s not just words Mark. There is tremendous scientific evidence behind what I say about Adam and Eve.

What invalidates them is the fact that we have found abundant evidence of humans (Homo-sapiens) living as far back as 200,000 years ago. Humans have been found to carry some Neanderthal genes/blood from as far back as 45,000 plus years ago and this establishes a link to even earlier forms of pre-humans such as:
Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, and
Homo heidelbergensis.

Archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and DNA science have made the links, and we now understand that we humans ARE of the great ape line. So we did evolve and the above primates are our ancestors.
Also in the mix is that DNA scientists says that the human genome was never down to just 1 mating pair, at any time—or 4 mating pairs if you believe the Noachian Flood story.

So, do you think the Adam and Eve myth is viable anymore?? Of course you will….you are a fundamentalist who thinks the bible is literal truth, and you will deny or ignore the facts.

Funny thing about facts is they never go away and they are always facts.

A good place to start learning is: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence and: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics These are at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History website.

“I don’t want to believe, I want to know”– Carl Sagan

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87719 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
counting on a made up puddle of primordial sludge is a really long strech!
Yeah, but we have our fingers crossed..:-)
Mark

United States

#87720 Apr 25, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Only because of this concept called "tenure".
He has lost all respect in his field.
The problem with Behe is not that he is naturally incompetent. His problem is that his beliefs have made him blind and due to that he has become incompetent. He is like the creatards here. He keeps himself willfully ignorant of advances in science that debunked his work.
For a scientist besides lying that is the worst thing you can do.
Ever read the book? I would like to hear the evolutionary version of the step by step development of the chemical motor that drives flagellum, or the engineering marvel of the blood clotting process. Teach the above in high school and you will have a revolution on your hands. Better ban it fast,- oh, that's right, your faithful have already done that for you. Like banning the Bible in commie China or Russia right? Better protect the ignorant masses from that one before it's too late. There's no difference here.

The obvious trend is to attack the character of the author, not the actual content. The book is in it's 20th printing. I know a number of believers who had to write in a pen names or be booted out of school, only to be awarded for their work and have it added to the textbooks in the same universities now use! One poster said Behe was out of a job, that wasn't true, he is still teaching, bias is dull.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#87721 Apr 25, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever read the book? I would like to hear the evolutionary version of the step by step development of the chemical motor that drives flagellum
Well if you'd noticed anything at all about the flagellum you will notice it has precisely the same configuration as Yersinia pestis, only with less proteins, thus making it NOT irreducibly complex.

Of course you were not aware of this since you were merely repeating long refuted religious apologetics from your fellow liars for Jesus.
Mark wrote:
or the engineering marvel of the blood clotting process.
Perhaps you could ask Behe if you could loan the 72 books on the subject that were dropped onto his lap in Dover. As I understand he admitted to never actually reading them before he made his claims of IC, and to my knowledge he hasn't since either. After all he found it far more profitable to write books on religious apologetics and whining about the Dover decision to sell to gullible rubes like yourself.

Of course if you HAD read any of those books I have no doubt that you STILL would not understand any of them nor even care, since after all you are simply just another liar for Jesus who claims reality isn't real because Goddidit with magic. Not that I would expect anything less from a creationist who keeps digging his own holes.(shrug)

IN THE MEANTIME however I would LOVE to hear about the "engineering marvel" of the blood-clotting cascade (meaning mechanisms and methods of engineering and scientific evidence of them), since NO FUNDIE ON THE PLANET has yet been able to explain ONE SINGLE THING about it. In fact they all seem perfectly happy to just claim a "who" is "somehow" responsible, rather than actually attempt to provide anything in the way of useful explanation.
Mark wrote:
Teach the above in high school and you will have a revolution on your hands. Better ban it fast,- oh, that's right, your faithful have already done that for you.
Yes, your Founders had the enlightened foresight to NOT allow Christian apologetics to be taught in public schools by guaranteeing religious freedom.
Mark wrote:
Like banning the Bible in commie China or Russia right? Better protect the ignorant masses from that one before it's too late. There's no difference here.
Except that you are FREE to lie for Jesus, just NOT by using public taxpayers money to do so. That is WHY you're posting RIGHT NOW and there's nothing I can do about it. Except point out where you're wrong as usual.(shrug)
Mark wrote:
The obvious trend is to attack the character of the author, not the actual content. The book is in it's 20th printing. I know a number of believers who had to write in a pen names or be booted out of school, only to be awarded for their work and have it added to the textbooks in the same universities now use! One poster said Behe was out of a job, that wasn't true, he is still teaching, bias is dull.
Behe's character was put into question when he found out that his "science" was scientifically unsound, but then continued to lie for Jesus by touring the church circuit. It was HIS choice NOT to scientifically pursue his claims of IC by, oh I dunno, ACTUALLY RESEARCHING the subject - probably because he admitted - in his own words: "It would not be fruitful."

So what's the "scientific theory" of IDC Mark?

Thanks in advance for never bothering to answer my questions.

That is why you fundies are always doomed to failure.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#87722 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe that randomly scattered elements can self assemble into the proper proportions, at the proper time and place and then erupt into life?
Does hydrogen and oxygen "randomly" form argon or nitrogen?

Keep making those lame puddle goo jokes, Bo. Give us a call when you actually have something that calls evolution itself into question.

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