Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 209528 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87711 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe we were discussing simplicity based on the idea of Occams razor. To say that a hodge podge of ingrediants floating in a primordial sea came to life in some spasmostic eruption,not different than a miracle, that even the most brillant men of any age cannot comprehend how it occurred is not a simple answer.
Let's see, the simplest answer:

Natural Chemical Processes:

1. Natural chemical processes eventually lead to living organisms, such processes we already understand and are very simple and well understood.

"God dun it"

1. Some being that defies the laws of nature somehow sprung into existence.

2. This being somehow managed to start a universe that it is not part of.

3. This being managed to somehow guide the universe's formation without leaving any evidence.

4. This being then managed to somehow make all life and organize it in a manner that suggests natural processes, on one planet, among innumerable planets.

.... natural processes wins Occam's Razor.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87712 Apr 25, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's see, the simplest answer:
Natural Chemical Processes:
1. Natural chemical processes eventually lead to living organisms, such processes we already understand and are very simple and well understood.
"God dun it"
1. Some being that defies the laws of nature somehow sprung into existence.
2. This being somehow managed to start a universe that it is not part of.
3. This being managed to somehow guide the universe's formation without leaving any evidence.
4. This being then managed to somehow make all life and organize it in a manner that suggests natural processes, on one planet, among innumerable planets.
.... natural processes wins Occam's Razor.
the being didn't spring into existence, he was created by the all new ULTRA CREATOR!!! wipe away all your theological conundrums with all new ULTRA CREATOR!!!

call now, operators always have been, and always will be standing by...

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87713 Apr 25, 2013
sd_mi_70 wrote:
<quoted text>
All the answers I have found to be right are my copy of King James bible. So far there is nothing in there that science has dis-proven.
MUCH of your KJV Bible is dis-proven.

Sorry!

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87714 Apr 25, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>the being didn't spring into existence, he was created by the all new ULTRA CREATOR!!! wipe away all your theological conundrums with all new ULTRA CREATOR!!!
call now, operators always have been, and always will be standing by...
Related to the Super Devil?

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87715 Apr 25, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Related to the Super Devil?
that is a cheap, chinese produced knock off of our brand name.

remember kids, pirating is not a victimless crime!

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#87716 Apr 25, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>that is a cheap, chinese produced knock off of our brand name.
remember kids, pirating is not a victimless crime!
No way, he was on the news, I saw pictures and everything.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87717 Apr 25, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
No way, he was on the news, I saw pictures and everything.
that was just Infinite Force in his/her alien mode. she was having a bad hair day...

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87718 Apr 25, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
On Behe, let a lawyer determine truth for you if you like, it doesn't change a thing, like a few other lawyers decided abortion was not killing and OK. He is still a best-seller and going strong. One of my sons-in-law recently spoke with a high level university PHD medical researcher who was profoundly impacted by his work, was asking alot or questions about God.
The entire establishments of the USSR and China feel the same way about evolution also, but I don't buy into dogma because of numbers.
I don't see how anything other than mere words invalidate Adam and Eve, we are here aren't we? That's one prooof. The mDNA is pretty forceful, thought to be junk one day and then from Eve another, what's next? This is not going well for your side.
Behind Intelligent Design, and trying to get creationist lies into public schools across America is Phillip E. Johnson. A LAWYER. He was a co-founder of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (CSC) and is credited with establishing the wedge Strategy, which aims to change public opinion and scientific consensus, and seeks to convince the scientific community to allow a role for God in scientific theory.

As a member of the group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, a prominent AIDS denialist group,[Johnson has written that HIV does not cause AIDS. The scientific community considers Johnson's opinions on evolution and AIDS to be pseudoscience.

Behe may still be selling religious books, but I think he has a rather ‘iffy’ reputation as a scientist anymore.

You write:
“The entire establishments of the USSR and China feel the same way about evolution also, but I don't buy into dogma because of numbers.“

The entire establishment of the German Nazi party and Nazi Army, Navy, and Air Force used to buy into Christianity and totally rejected evolution also. What’s your point here??

Oh and by the way, the peoples of Russia and China are embracing religion in a big way now. It’s always just the leaders messing with people for their own ends.

You write:
“I don't see how anything other than mere words invalidate Adam and Eve, we are here aren't we? That's one prooof. The mDNA is pretty forceful, thought to be junk one day and then from Eve another, what's next? This is not going well for your side.

Of course it’s not just words Mark. There is tremendous scientific evidence behind what I say about Adam and Eve.

What invalidates them is the fact that we have found abundant evidence of humans (Homo-sapiens) living as far back as 200,000 years ago. Humans have been found to carry some Neanderthal genes/blood from as far back as 45,000 plus years ago and this establishes a link to even earlier forms of pre-humans such as:
Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, and
Homo heidelbergensis.

Archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and DNA science have made the links, and we now understand that we humans ARE of the great ape line. So we did evolve and the above primates are our ancestors.
Also in the mix is that DNA scientists says that the human genome was never down to just 1 mating pair, at any time—or 4 mating pairs if you believe the Noachian Flood story.

So, do you think the Adam and Eve myth is viable anymore?? Of course you will….you are a fundamentalist who thinks the bible is literal truth, and you will deny or ignore the facts.

Funny thing about facts is they never go away and they are always facts.

A good place to start learning is: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence and: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics These are at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History website.

“I don’t want to believe, I want to know”– Carl Sagan

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87719 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
counting on a made up puddle of primordial sludge is a really long strech!
Yeah, but we have our fingers crossed..:-)
Mark

United States

#87720 Apr 25, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Only because of this concept called "tenure".
He has lost all respect in his field.
The problem with Behe is not that he is naturally incompetent. His problem is that his beliefs have made him blind and due to that he has become incompetent. He is like the creatards here. He keeps himself willfully ignorant of advances in science that debunked his work.
For a scientist besides lying that is the worst thing you can do.
Ever read the book? I would like to hear the evolutionary version of the step by step development of the chemical motor that drives flagellum, or the engineering marvel of the blood clotting process. Teach the above in high school and you will have a revolution on your hands. Better ban it fast,- oh, that's right, your faithful have already done that for you. Like banning the Bible in commie China or Russia right? Better protect the ignorant masses from that one before it's too late. There's no difference here.

The obvious trend is to attack the character of the author, not the actual content. The book is in it's 20th printing. I know a number of believers who had to write in a pen names or be booted out of school, only to be awarded for their work and have it added to the textbooks in the same universities now use! One poster said Behe was out of a job, that wasn't true, he is still teaching, bias is dull.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#87721 Apr 25, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever read the book? I would like to hear the evolutionary version of the step by step development of the chemical motor that drives flagellum
Well if you'd noticed anything at all about the flagellum you will notice it has precisely the same configuration as Yersinia pestis, only with less proteins, thus making it NOT irreducibly complex.

Of course you were not aware of this since you were merely repeating long refuted religious apologetics from your fellow liars for Jesus.
Mark wrote:
or the engineering marvel of the blood clotting process.
Perhaps you could ask Behe if you could loan the 72 books on the subject that were dropped onto his lap in Dover. As I understand he admitted to never actually reading them before he made his claims of IC, and to my knowledge he hasn't since either. After all he found it far more profitable to write books on religious apologetics and whining about the Dover decision to sell to gullible rubes like yourself.

Of course if you HAD read any of those books I have no doubt that you STILL would not understand any of them nor even care, since after all you are simply just another liar for Jesus who claims reality isn't real because Goddidit with magic. Not that I would expect anything less from a creationist who keeps digging his own holes.(shrug)

IN THE MEANTIME however I would LOVE to hear about the "engineering marvel" of the blood-clotting cascade (meaning mechanisms and methods of engineering and scientific evidence of them), since NO FUNDIE ON THE PLANET has yet been able to explain ONE SINGLE THING about it. In fact they all seem perfectly happy to just claim a "who" is "somehow" responsible, rather than actually attempt to provide anything in the way of useful explanation.
Mark wrote:
Teach the above in high school and you will have a revolution on your hands. Better ban it fast,- oh, that's right, your faithful have already done that for you.
Yes, your Founders had the enlightened foresight to NOT allow Christian apologetics to be taught in public schools by guaranteeing religious freedom.
Mark wrote:
Like banning the Bible in commie China or Russia right? Better protect the ignorant masses from that one before it's too late. There's no difference here.
Except that you are FREE to lie for Jesus, just NOT by using public taxpayers money to do so. That is WHY you're posting RIGHT NOW and there's nothing I can do about it. Except point out where you're wrong as usual.(shrug)
Mark wrote:
The obvious trend is to attack the character of the author, not the actual content. The book is in it's 20th printing. I know a number of believers who had to write in a pen names or be booted out of school, only to be awarded for their work and have it added to the textbooks in the same universities now use! One poster said Behe was out of a job, that wasn't true, he is still teaching, bias is dull.
Behe's character was put into question when he found out that his "science" was scientifically unsound, but then continued to lie for Jesus by touring the church circuit. It was HIS choice NOT to scientifically pursue his claims of IC by, oh I dunno, ACTUALLY RESEARCHING the subject - probably because he admitted - in his own words: "It would not be fruitful."

So what's the "scientific theory" of IDC Mark?

Thanks in advance for never bothering to answer my questions.

That is why you fundies are always doomed to failure.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#87722 Apr 25, 2013
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe that randomly scattered elements can self assemble into the proper proportions, at the proper time and place and then erupt into life?
Does hydrogen and oxygen "randomly" form argon or nitrogen?

Keep making those lame puddle goo jokes, Bo. Give us a call when you actually have something that calls evolution itself into question.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#87723 Apr 25, 2013
My Portal wrote:
<quoted text>What facts are you refering to?
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/T9Q...

But since you're not interested in facts why did you bother asking in the first place? Oh wait - you thought there WEREN'T any, because you thought that the invisible magical Jewish wizard did everything differently because it said so in an old book which says lizards and donkeys talk and the Earth is flat.

Level 6

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#87724 Apr 25, 2013
Creation + Evolution = Creation + Evolution = .......
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#87725 Apr 25, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm going to refer you to a book called "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne Ph.D. He is a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago. He can explain it *much* better than I can. Good writer and his book is in libraries.
Who says we're not still evolving. It's such a slow process (mostly), that I doubt if we would see that much happening.
What?!? No dog giving birth to a cat?

:-(
Mark

United States

#87726 Apr 25, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
Behind Intelligent Design, and trying to get creationist lies into public schools across America is Phillip E. Johnson. A LAWYER. Behe may still be selling religious books, but I think he has a rather ‘iffy’ reputation as a scientist anymore.
You write:
“The entire establishments of the USSR and China feel the same way about evolution also, but I don't buy into dogma because of numbers.“
There is tremendous scientific evidence behind what I say about Adam and Eve.
What invalidates them is the fact that we have found abundant evidence of humans (Homo-sapiens) living as far back as 200,000 years ago. Archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and DNA science have made the links, and we now understand that we humans ARE of the great ape line. So we did evolve and the above primates are our ancestors.
Also in the mix is that DNA scientists says that the human genome was never down to just 1 mating pair, at any time—or 4 mating pairs if you believe the Noachian Flood story.
So, do you think the Adam and Eve myth is viable anymore?? Of course you will….you are a fundamentalist who thinks the bible is literal truth, and you will deny or ignore the facts.
Funny thing about facts is they never go away and they are always facts.
A good place to start learning is: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence and: http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics These are at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History website.
“I don’t want to believe, I want to know”– Carl Sagan
Well sir, I have never quoted Johnson, nor was I concerned what Hitler used to drive his armies. My point was atheism wants no competition from God, and lawyers have a reputation for wanting to "win" despite the truth. On the other point, establishment can be entirely in error. This happened in the NW US concerning the Missoula Flood. The Geologist that proposed it was beat down by the entire gov geologic establishment in two countries, but was vindicated after his death. One thing he purposed was short duration catastrophisim - oh, goodness! a back door tactic for those horrible ID people, grab your trench coats, commence the witch hunt, ID in disguise! Bias is so dull.

Yes I have presuppositions, but complexity doesn't arise in a mindless, self-driven system of hopeful forward complexity in experience or experiment. Yes I have faith, and fear. If there are questions to be answered that challenge Scripture I have confidence they will be answered. I stay current in the rebuttals from my side, and challenges are often dismantled very logically before press.

Fantastic complexity, the closed system of the cell, proof of the Biblical major geologic events (like the Great Unconformity), history, archeology evidence, its all there and fits, outside of my faith. If my faith was empty, with no answered prayer, revelation, or action, I would be a theistic skeptic or maybe a Panasperma cult follower. And yes, Adam and Eve were real people, because the Bible states so in many places. As more clues come in, who know's what can happen next? Eve in the mDNA made some headlines, what will you say if Adam turns up, will your side change position again?

Interesting that you use the term "paleoanthropologists " I remember not long ago Johansson was hoping one day it could be a "science", as all they had was bones to cover a pool table for all the transitionals, but now they have 1 1/2 tables and you are asking me to throw away my Bible. Sorry, no deal.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#87727 Apr 25, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
What?!? No dog giving birth to a cat?
:-(
Only if you cross your eyes properly..:-)

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#87728 Apr 25, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever read the book? I would like to hear the evolutionary version of the step by step development of the chemical motor that drives flagellum, or the engineering marvel of the blood clotting process. Teach the above in high school and you will have a revolution on your hands. Better ban it fast,- oh, that's right, your faithful have already done that for you. Like banning the Bible in commie China or Russia right? Better protect the ignorant masses from that one before it's too late. There's no difference here.
The obvious trend is to attack the character of the author, not the actual content. The book is in it's 20th printing. I know a number of believers who had to write in a pen names or be booted out of school, only to be awarded for their work and have it added to the textbooks in the same universities now use! One poster said Behe was out of a job, that wasn't true, he is still teaching, bias is dull.
No, I have never read Behe's book. His check to me hasn't cleared yet.

On the flagellum your are in luck, I just watched a video that explains it:



On blood clotting you should do some research. That was the topic that Behe got blown away at the Dover trial. After declaring authoritatively that there were no publications that described this topic they built almost a fort of books and journal articles around him explaining how it evolved. I don't think even Behe makes this claim anymore, unless he is as big of a masochist as rusty is.
Mark

United States

#87729 Apr 25, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Well if you'd noticed anything at all about the flagellum you will notice it has precisely the same configuration as Yersinia pestis, only with less proteins, thus making it NOT irreducibly complex.
Of course you were not aware of this since you were merely repeating long refuted religious apologetics from your fellow liars for Jesus.
<quoted text>
Perhaps you could ask Behe if you could loan the 72 books on the subject that were dropped onto his lap in Dover. As I understand he admitted to never actually reading them before he made his claims of IC, and to my knowledge he hasn't since either. After all he found it far more profitable to write books on religious apologetics and whining about the Dover decision to sell to gullible rubes like yourself.
Of course if you HAD read any of those books I have no doubt that you STILL would not understand any of them nor even care, since after all you are simply just another liar for Jesus who claims reality isn't real because Goddidit with magic. Not that I would expect anything less from a creationist who keeps digging his own holes.(shrug)
IN THE MEANTIME however I would LOVE to hear about the "engineering marvel" of the blood-clotting cascade (meaning mechanisms and methods of engineering and scientific evidence of them), since NO FUNDIE ON THE PLANET has yet been able to explain ONE SINGLE THING about it. In fact they all seem perfectly happy to just claim a "who" is "somehow" responsible, rather than actually attempt to provide anything in the way of useful explanation.
<quoted text>
Yes, your Founders had the enlightened foresight to NOT allow Christian apologetics to be taught in public schools by guaranteeing religious freedom.
<quoted text>
Except that you are FREE to lie for Jesus, just NOT by using public taxpayers money to do so. That is WHY you're posting RIGHT NOW and there's nothing I can do about it. Except point out where you're wrong as usual.(shrug)
<quoted text>
Behe's character was put into question when he found out that his "science" was scientifically unsound, but then continued to lie for Jesus by touring the church circuit. It was HIS choice NOT to scientifically pursue his claims of IC by, oh I dunno, ACTUALLY RESEARCHING the subject - probably because he admitted - in his own words: "It would not be fruitful."
So what's the "scientific theory" of IDC Mark?
Thanks in advance for never bothering to answer my questions.
That is why you fundies are always doomed to failure.
Hello Dude, glad you are back, on vacation? My #2 daughter was in your country and loved it!

Anyway, 72 volumes of what, anything that makes logical sense that accident-and-chance-mutations- over-millions-of-years-made-it for us reasonable people to understand, or is that only for the enlightened again? NO, thats your presupposition. Ever use Rat Poison? It uses one chemical to break one link in the clot process and the rodent bleeds to death. Nice American invention. My point is it all has to connect for the process to work. No part can be left out or we die and yes it's complex - again.

If all these "fundies" you speak of can't explain something because it's complex? I don't get your point, are you hopeful the process can't be explained because it's too complex?

I need to call this off for now, more later - and yes i do spend time answering your rebuttals, dont see too many questions however.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#87730 Apr 25, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Well sir, I have never quoted Johnson, nor was I concerned what Hitler used to drive his armies. My point was atheism wants no competition from God, and lawyers have a reputation for wanting to "win" despite the truth. On the other point, establishment can be entirely in error. This happened in the NW US concerning the Missoula Flood. The Geologist that proposed it was beat down by the entire gov geologic establishment in two countries, but was vindicated after his death. One thing he purposed was short duration catastrophisim - oh, goodness! a back door tactic for those horrible ID people, grab your trench coats, commence the witch hunt, ID in disguise! Bias is so dull.
Yes I have presuppositions, but complexity doesn't arise in a mindless, self-driven system of hopeful forward complexity in experience or experiment. Yes I have faith, and fear. If there are questions to be answered that challenge Scripture I have confidence they will be answered. I stay current in the rebuttals from my side, and challenges are often dismantled very logically before press.
Fantastic complexity, the closed system of the cell, proof of the Biblical major geologic events (like the Great Unconformity), history, archeology evidence, its all there and fits, outside of my faith. If my faith was empty, with no answered prayer, revelation, or action, I would be a theistic skeptic or maybe a Panasperma cult follower. And yes, Adam and Eve were real people, because the Bible states so in many places. As more clues come in, who know's what can happen next? Eve in the mDNA made some headlines, what will you say if Adam turns up, will your side change position again?
Interesting that you use the term "paleoanthropologists " I remember not long ago Johansson was hoping one day it could be a "science", as all they had was bones to cover a pool table for all the transitionals, but now they have 1 1/2 tables and you are asking me to throw away my Bible. Sorry, no deal.
Mark, the "Great Unconformity" is not all that great. It is a big unconformity in Britain. It is an unconformity of only 80 million years. In Colorado there is a "Great unconformity" too, but it is a different unconformity and is a gap of over a billion years.

When it comes to science the last thing you should do is to trust creationist sources.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Weird Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
CHANGE One letter CHANCE (Sep '08) 1 min funnel Shaped 35,310
One Word (Jan '09) 1 min Poppyann 17,275
Any Word ! (Mar '11) 2 min Knock off purse s... 5,436
Only Three Word (Nov '09) 3 min Knock off purse s... 13,519
3 Word Advice (Good or Bad) (Dec '14) 3 min andet1987 4,378
Post any FOUR words (Feb '16) 5 min Poppyann 1,362
Last Post Wins! (Aug '08) 5 min Knock off purse s... 147,171
2words into 2new words (May '12) 7 min Poppyann 5,056
What turns you on ? (Aug '11) 10 min Sharlene45 430
El's Kitchen (Feb '09) 19 min Denny CranesPlace 61,420
What song are you listening to right now? (Apr '08) 2 hr seriously the ori... 200,782
More from around the web