Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#87533 Apr 24, 2013
TerryL wrote:
<quoted text>LOL! That's funny since very little, if any, of your bible can be attributed to anyone in particular.
You can credit your mentor Anton LeVay with his bible right? I read some of it just for curosity sake his satanic bible. It is obvious he wore a hat that was too tight on his head.I bet you would take what he wrote down as "the gospel" and it should be believed and accepted without queston.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#87534 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>The bible is in harmony, it was written over a period of approximately 1400 years by about 40 writers from different backgrounds. No man made literature over the same time period and by different authors would have total agreement as the inspired writers had.
It's easy for a book to have "harmony" if it was compiled LONG AFTER THE BOOKS WERE WRITTEN.

Many scriptures about Jesus and Christianity were LEFT OUT because they did not fit the prevailing orthodoxy of the time.

And yet still your Bible contradicts itself in many places.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Mark and John have Jesus dying on completely different DAYS. That's not "harmonious," is it?

Also, Mark says Jesus did the "Cleansing of the Temple" at the END of a one-year ministry.

John says Jesus Cleansed the temple at the BEGINNING of a 3-year ministry.

Which is correct?

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#87535 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>You did quite a bit of work to twist what I said. Just because something is written does not make it true or false, one must consider the source from where the information comes from. Truth is truth whether agress with it or accepts it.
no work at all, just simple logic.

How can you 'consider the source' of the bible as 'reliable', when the 'source' is merely a claim of divine inspiration with nothing but the book to support it?
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#87536 Apr 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
It's easy for a book to have "harmony" if it was compiled LONG AFTER THE BOOKS WERE WRITTEN.
Many scriptures about Jesus and Christianity were LEFT OUT because they did not fit the prevailing orthodoxy of the time.
And yet still your Bible contradicts itself in many places.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Mark and John have Jesus dying on completely different DAYS. That's not "harmonious," is it?
Also, Mark says Jesus did the "Cleansing of the Temple" at the END of a one-year ministry.
John says Jesus Cleansed the temple at the BEGINNING of a 3-year ministry.
Which is correct?
Jesus cleansed the temple on his first visit there after his ministry began. Show me the passages which contradict the time it was done.Also show me where Mark and John having him dying on different days.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87537 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>You have produced ZERO evidence of lies from the bible, you just quoted some unknown baloney from some hayseed either real or imagined or something you came up with trying to refute scripture which you know very little about.
no, not true at all. i have never quoted anyone or anything but the bible itself. i have, in fact. shown the proven lies. there was no flood as your bible stated. the moon was not created at teh same time as the sun. the earth and all its plants were not created before the sun. there was, in fact, rain before the noachian flood. your jesus savior myth is just re-hashed myths from previous religious cults. so many more...

again, you come with the open lies about what i said and who i quoted...why do you have to lie so much in an attempt to support your proven false bible?

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87538 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>You have produced ZERO evidence of lies from the bible, you just quoted some unknown baloney from some hayseed either real or imagined or something you came up with trying to refute scripture which you know very little about.
then of course, there are all the examples where the concept of divine inspiration in interpreting the bible has been proven to not be there...

your cult lied to you...again...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#87539 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>Jesus cleansed the temple on his first visit there after his ministry began. Show me the passages which contradict the time it was done.Also show me where Mark and John having him dying on different days.
From Bart Ehrman's "Jesus, Interrupted" pages 25-27

Jesus and his disciples have made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Passover feast. In Mark 14:12, the disciples ask Jesus where they are to prepare the Passover meal for that evening. In other words, this is on the Day of Preparation for Passover. Jesus gives them instructions. They make the preparations, and when it is evening-the beginning of Passover day-they have the meal. It is a special meal indeed. Jesus takes the symbolic foods of the Passover and imbues them with yet more symbolic meaning. He takes the unleavened bread, breaks it, and says, "This is my body." By implication, his body must be broken for salvation. Then after supper he takes the cup of wine and says, "This is my blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many" (Mark 14:22-25), meaning that his own blood must be shed.

After the disciples eat the Passover meal they go out to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray. Judas Iscariot brings the troops and performs his act of betrayal. Jesus is taken to stand trial before the Jewish authorities. He spends the night in jail, and the next morning he is put on trial before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him to death by crucifixion. We are told that he is crucified that same day, at nine o'clock in the morning (Mark 15:25). Jesus, then, dies on the day of Passover, the morning after the Passover meal was eaten.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus goes to Jerusalem in the last week of his life to celebrate the Passover feast, and here, too, there is a last meal, a betrayal, a trial before Pilate, and the crucifixion. But it is striking that in John, at the beginning of the account, in contrast to Mark, the disciples do not ask Jesus where they are "to prepare the Passover." Consequently, he gives them no instructions for preparing the meal. They do eat a final supper together.

After the meal they go out. Jesus is betrayed by Judas, appears before the Jewish authorities, spends the night in jail, and is put on trial before Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him to be crucified. And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: "It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon" (John 19:14).

Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the lambs were slaughtered? How can that be? In Mark's Gospel, Jesus lived through that day, had his disciples prepare the Passover meal, and ate it with them before being arrested, taken to jail for the night, tried the next morning, and executed at 9 A.M. on the Passover day. But not in John. In John, Jesus dies a day earlier, on the Day of reparation for the Passover, sometime after noon.

And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day before the Passover meal was to be eaten.4 Moreover, in Mark, Jesus is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not condemned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#87540 Apr 24, 2013
Also:

Anyone with even passing knowledge of Bible history and criticism knows that the gospels differ on the day of Jesus' death and that this has LONG been known as a "problem" for the Protestant fundamentalist idea of an inerrant "Word of God" Bible.

=======

The great Catholic Bible Scholar Raymond Brown was explicit in his belief that Jesus was led of to be crucified at the "very hour" the Passover lambs were being offered in the Temple.

Brown has been described as “the premier Johannine scholar in the English-speaking world”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._Brown

==========

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows...

The Gospel of John

L. Michael White, Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin

Excerpts...

John's gospel is different from the other three in the New Testament. That fact has been recognized since the early church itself. Already by the year 200, John's gospel was called the spiritual gospel precisely because it told the story of Jesus in symbolic ways that differ sharply at times from the other three. For example, Jesus dies on a different day in John's gospel than in Matthew, Mark and Luke....

Whereas in the three synoptic gospels Jesus actually eats a passover meal before he dies, in John's gospel he doesn't. The last supper is actually eaten before the beginning of passover. So that the sequence of events leading up to the actual crucifixion are very different for John's gospel. And one has to look at it in say, why is the story so different? How do we account for these differences in terms of the way the story-telling developed? And the answer becomes fairly clear when we realize that Jesus has had the last supper a day before so that he's hanging on the cross during the day of preparation before the beginning of Passover.

End quote
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#87541 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>Jesus cleansed the temple on his first visit there after his ministry began. Show me the passages which contradict the time it was done.
In each of the synoptic gospels – Matthew, Mark and Luke - the event comes at the end, only days before his arrest. However, John doesn’t say that. He describes a temple cleansing at the beginning of Jesus' ministry shortly after attending the wedding at Cana.(John 2:11-16) The occasions are similar enough to assume they were the same event but different enough to assume someone made a mistake.
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#87543 Apr 24, 2013
All humans make mistakes and today in this day and time things are different than they were when the original authors of the Bible wrote their text. If we make mistakes today someone can catch them and point them out to us. If there are any errors it could have been Interpolation by the scribes. There would be several copies between an extant copy and the original one and different sribes may have accidently let in extraneous material at some point such as explanatory notes in margin which found their way into the body of the text by a Consentious scribe.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87544 Apr 24, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
All humans make mistakes and today in this day and time things are different than they were when the original authors of the Bible wrote their text. If we make mistakes today someone can catch them and point them out to us. If there are any errors it could have been Interpolation by the scribes. There would be several copies between an extant copy and the original one and different sribes may have accidently let in extraneous material at some point such as explanatory notes in margin which found their way into the body of the text by a Consentious scribe.
yes, we have proven that the concept of divine inspiration is false. thanx for hammering the point home.
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#87545 Apr 24, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>yes, we have proven that the concept of divine inspiration is false. thanx for hammering the point home.
The hand of God is at work and the Bible is truly his divine will that we should know it.
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#87546 Apr 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
From Bart Ehrman's "Jesus, Interrupted" pages 25-27
Jesus and his disciples have made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Passover feast. In Mark 14:12, the disciples ask Jesus where they are to prepare the Passover meal for that evening. In other words, this is on the Day of Preparation for Passover. Jesus gives them instructions. They make the preparations, and when it is evening-the beginning of Passover day-they have the meal. It is a special meal indeed. Jesus takes the symbolic foods of the Passover and imbues them with yet more symbolic meaning. He takes the unleavened bread, breaks it, and says, "This is my body." By implication, his body must be broken for salvation. Then after supper he takes the cup of wine and says, "This is my blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many" (Mark 14:22-25), meaning that his own blood must be shed.
After the disciples eat the Passover meal they go out to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray. Judas Iscariot brings the troops and performs his act of betrayal. Jesus is taken to stand trial before the Jewish authorities. He spends the night in jail, and the next morning he is put on trial before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him to death by crucifixion. We are told that he is crucified that same day, at nine o'clock in the morning (Mark 15:25). Jesus, then, dies on the day of Passover, the morning after the Passover meal was eaten.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus goes to Jerusalem in the last week of his life to celebrate the Passover feast, and here, too, there is a last meal, a betrayal, a trial before Pilate, and the crucifixion. But it is striking that in John, at the beginning of the account, in contrast to Mark, the disciples do not ask Jesus where they are "to prepare the Passover." Consequently, he gives them no instructions for preparing the meal. They do eat a final supper together.
After the meal they go out. Jesus is betrayed by Judas, appears before the Jewish authorities, spends the night in jail, and is put on trial before Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him to be crucified. And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the sentence: "It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon" (John 19:14).
Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the lambs were slaughtered? How can that be? In Mark's Gospel, Jesus lived through that day, had his disciples prepare the Passover meal, and ate it with them before being arrested, taken to jail for the night, tried the next morning, and executed at 9 A.M. on the Passover day. But not in John. In John, Jesus dies a day earlier, on the Day of reparation for the Passover, sometime after noon.
And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day before the Passover meal was to be eaten.4 Moreover, in Mark, Jesus is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not condemned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.
I would take some doing to clerarly explain all this..in a nutshell Christ died on Friday and arose Sunday. The Hebrews had a term "Day-night" where a portion of a day would be called/considered a day..Christ died and was buried on friday-day 1,(according to jewish law a body could not be on cross after dark on that day) day 2 he was in the grave, day 3 that morning he arose. thus he was dead 3 days, even though they were not complete days(days 1 and 3 were partial days) per se by their venacular he was in the tomb 3 days. I have heard that Thursday night him dying argument but take head of the terminolgy of the day.A more thorough explanation would take more time than I have at this time.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#87547 Apr 24, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>I would take some doing to clerarly explain all this..in a nutshell Christ died on Friday and arose Sunday. The Hebrews had a term "Day-night" where a portion of a day would be called/considered a day..Christ died and was buried on friday-day 1,(according to jewish law a body could not be on cross after dark on that day) day 2 he was in the grave, day 3 that morning he arose. thus he was dead 3 days, even though they were not complete days(days 1 and 3 were partial days) per se by their venacular he was in the tomb 3 days. I have heard that Thursday night him dying argument but take head of the terminolgy of the day.A more thorough explanation would take more time than I have at this time.
Complete nonsense.

Slowly re-read Ehrman's clear explanation of the contradiction.

One gospel has him dying on the first day of Passover (after eating the Passover meal), the other kills him off on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, when the lambs are slaughtered.

This has been known to be a "problem" in the scriptures for nearly 2000 years, so there is not much you can say will clear THAT up. LOL

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#87548 Apr 24, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>The hand of God is at work and the Bible is truly his divine will that we should know it.
yet you just showed that it is not. it is the work of humans.
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#87549 Apr 24, 2013
Gillette, This is what I have time to address for now. John marks the exact time when the judgment was rendered. It was about 6 AM on Friday the day of preparation for the passover.Mark says the crucificion began at 3rd hour(9 AM)as the Hebrews began to count the day at 6AM. John wrote years later after Jerusalem had fallen among people who began to count at midnight as the first hour and as did all the roman world and he used their language and called 6AM the 6th hour as we do now rather than 6 AM the first hour as the hebrews did. I will tell more about Christ eating the passover meal when I have more time.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Iquique

#87550 Apr 24, 2013
Salma Ahmed wrote:
Scientists everyday try to take elder scientist ideas and evolve their theories to either prove them right or false. The idea of evolution was long introduced by some ancient Greek thinkers but was long rejected in Europe as contrary to the literal interpretation of the Bible. A few years later, Lamarck proposed a theory that organisms became transformed by their efforts to respond to the demands of their environment, but he couldn't explain a mechanism for this. Lyell demonstrated that geological deposits were the cumulative product of slow processes over vast ages. This helped Darwin toward a theory of gradual evolution over a long period by the natural selection of those varieties of an organism slightly better adapted to the environment and hence more likely to produce descendants. Combined with the later discoveries of the cellular and molecular basis of genetics, Darwin's theory of evolution has, with some modification, become the dominant unifying concept of modern biology. Simply what I'm trying to say that it's a theory, and it gradually evolves, while constantly finding religious responses to it. Fact is, that wether it's a religious fact, or scientific fact, our society will never be fuffiled with enough facts to prove the true existence of evolution.
Sorry Salma, evolution IS filled with enough facts that it's considered true now....but it will always be called 'The Theory of Evolution'

Are you a Muslim or Christian?
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#87551 Apr 24, 2013
Gillette , If you do the math using the hebrew and roman method of telling time the hours do correspond. A good example of the Hebrews system see Acts 2:11-15. The third hour of the day(which to them started @6AM)was 9 AM.
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#87552 Apr 24, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>yet you just showed that it is not. it is the work of humans.
We know all humans can make mistakes and Jesus doesn't. The BIble was closely guarded against error and I can not say if any mistakes were made, but yes it was copied by scribes and not written by the direct hand of God or Jesus.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#87553 Apr 24, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>We know all humans can make mistakes and Jesus doesn't. The BIble was closely guarded against error and I can not say if any mistakes were made, but yes it was copied by scribes and not written by the direct hand of God or Jesus.
Then why do we find so many inconsistencies, failed prophesies and bad science?

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