Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
Comments
79,341 - 79,360 of 112,998 Comments Last updated 4 min ago

“Universal Conscious Conscience”

Level 3

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83976
Mar 30, 2013
 
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>actually, i thought it was the warping of space/time that did that...
I never heard of planets in a revolutionary orbit without a sun.

Second, what is time?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83977
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
I speak of the laws that govern the empirical evidence not the empirical evidence itself. This is when you will discover a universal law constant.
And you've "discovered" NO scientific "laws".
Infinite Force wrote:
This is a whole nother level of thinking because now you know you can not come to a conclusion unless it's a scientific law
The highest level in science is a scientific theory. They NEVER get "proven" to be "promoted" to "laws".
Infinite Force wrote:
or self-evident truth.
No such thing. That is an emotional argument used by fundies and cranks. Empirical testing is always required.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83978
Mar 30, 2013
 
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> I follow that, even though it has it's own pitfalls here and there. Like the pelvic bones becoming smaller and making birth even more difficult, resulting in the infant actually being born prematurely in humans as compared to apes.
Nobody said evolution made things perfect.(shrug)
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
This could possibly be a distinct advantage in the human becoming more intelligent though. The child's brain and awareness is still developing for about 1 year after birth, so has a multitude more information during that development period.
Actually it develops for a lot longer than just a year. The hypothesis about human intelligence is that humans don't have a strong anchor-point at the top of their skulls like other apes, in fact the skull is in four pieces as the baby is born which basically helps get the head out during birth. This allowed our brains to expand more than other apes thus enabling our intelligence (which has its own advantages and drawbacks).
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83979
Mar 30, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
As I see it, based on your past stereotyping, belittling and intolerant remarks toward me and others of the same faith or origins understanding, your prejudice is screaming. I see a "stomp them out" attitude in your posts.
If you think you can bully me off because I am of another faith or origins understanding with hate-words and weak arguments, you are very mistaken.
It must be Easter or something, does that explain why you're carrying your own cross? Does merely disagreeing with you amount to "hate"? As for weak arguments, that's projection on your part.

What's the "scientific theory" of creationism?
Mark

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83980
Mar 30, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
1 - Only if you ignore known population sizes and don't take things like wars and diseases into account. Oh, and well done for not realizing that fossilization is a rare process. Despite this we have THOUSANDS of fossils, and they show a good picture of evolutionary development.
2 - Time will tell, eh? However you are referring to work he did from four decades ago. But even if evolution eventually leads us all to extinction, that is a future event and does not affect evolution from getting us to where we are. To claim otherwise would be misrepresenting him. But then, fundies LOVE doing that.(shrug) Also an interesting aside, he's a theistic evolutionist. Meaning he's not a pal of yours, disagrees with you, and uses scientific concepts you reject to make conclusions you disagree with. So you've no reason to take any of his claims seriously anyway. ESPECIALLY since you're a reality-denying YEC who thinks Goddidit with magic.
You can't invoke science you disagree with to claim science you disagree with is wrong. That would only make you a big fat juicy hypocrite.
I'm sure God is proud.
On #1, the math used was a population statistic average over known history. I would need to look up the calc. Agree with the variable's involved. Its a question, not a proof.
On #2, he worked in a time when one could get more non-evolutionary challenges or things to think about past peer review. Never happen today. You can imagine, you could measure his job life in seconds, no 1/2 lives involved.

I knew Dr. M. Miller personally because of his work in Alaska. I once asked, "Maynard, how old is the oldest ice on the planet", his answer; "less than 6000 years", I asked, "do you have documentation on that", "yes its in one of my papers - "in the tables"! He sent me a copy. That was 30 years ago. OK, can we have a truce over this "what God thinks of me" stuff?

The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83981
Mar 30, 2013
 
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok. Anyone "today"? Even allowing advanced technology...
The pieces are there and the elements are there. We simply need to reproduce them.
It's one of those "things" that throws a cog in the wheel.
Actually we don't need to reproduce them.

Not one person today needs to build a massive stone pyramid to get to heaven.

And to do so would be economically non-viable.

We could do it though.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83982
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me correct your statement from “WE” don’t know if eternity exists to “YOU” don’t know. The dude me and your understanding goes in opposite directions and your conclusions is not the same as mine.
Yes, but you know very little. Eternity works fine for a mathematical concept, but may or may not have much bearing on reality.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83983
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
Gravity keeps this planet in its orbit. Universal constant stands!
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>actually, i thought it was the warping of space/time that did that...
Well you both may be right , but specifically it is the sun and more specifically
Sagi* star that that rules the orbits of everything in our galaxy.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Level 1

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83984
Mar 30, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Nobody said evolution made things perfect.(shrug)
<quoted text>
Actually it develops for a lot longer than just a year. The hypothesis about human intelligence is that humans don't have a strong anchor-point at the top of their skulls like other apes, in fact the skull is in four pieces as the baby is born which basically helps get the head out during birth. This allowed our brains to expand more than other apes thus enabling our intelligence (which has its own advantages and drawbacks).
Yup. Basically what I was saying. I didn't want to turn it into a book.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83985
Mar 30, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Well Dude, I am sorry you think this is all manufactured, it's not, just like the fact that I lost a very good friend flying seismic gear a few mo. ago, its all real folks. God means a ton to me, because He is all about truth, but more than that, love, forgiveness and understanding. Clear conscience on the 9th. The liar lable is getting old, Bill's wife would slap you for that.
Hey bub, maybe God IS all about truth. YOU on the other hand are not. And don't give me this crapp about what your personal friends would do to me, I did not bring them into this. I don't even know who Bill or his wife are in order to personally insult them. If you continue to make more appeals to emotion that's your problem for getting emotionally involved on the internet. That's why I don't care if fundies call me all the names under the sun. All I've done is expose some of your flawed thinking and scientific inaccuracies, and pointed out when you are lying. I can't falsify your personal anecdotes. You may well be a coal miner and known a guy called Bill. But when you start lying about science bear in mind that people here WILL correct you whether you like it or not. It's your choice whether you want to continue lying or not. It makes no difference to us as fundies around these forums are a dime a dozen.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83986
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
I speak of the laws that govern the empirical evidence not the empirical evidence itself. This is when you will discover a universal law constant. This is a whole nother level of thinking because now you know you can not come to a conclusion unless it's a scientific law or self-evident truth.
No what you are doing is psychological and a type Socratic thinking, of which has little influence in modern scientific thinking. There is no law that can overturn truth.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83987
Mar 30, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
On #1, the math used was a population statistic average over known history. I would need to look up the calc. Agree with the variable's involved. Its a question, not a proof.
1.) you would seriously post a calculation without even CONSIDERING famines; plagues, the effects of wars, etc. on population? LOL!

2.) You would seriously wonder "where all the bones are"? Don't you know that bones decompose rapidly on or under the surface of the earth? Do you think bones are ETERNAL or something?
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
I knew Dr. M. Miller personally because of his work in Alaska. I once asked, "Maynard, how old is the oldest ice on the planet", his answer; "less than 6000 years", I asked, "do you have documentation on that", "yes its in one of my papers - "in the tables"! He sent me a copy. That was 30 years ago. OK, can we have a truce over this "what God thinks of me" stuff?
Let me guess: Dr. Miller was a "Bible-believing Christian"?

We have ice cores MANY TIMES older than that.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html

Up to 800,000 years for some cores!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83988
Mar 30, 2013
 
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> That's their hypothesis. I will stick with mine for now....until something definite is discovered.
Where is the repository for all the black holes?
Repository? I thought they were generally star remnants. There is a large cluster at the center of the galaxy though.
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
Where does the "information" go when they "disappear"?
There's two possibilities. They don't disappear and all the information is trapped inside the singularity. Or the information bleeds away as Hawking radiation until there's not enough mass left inside the black hole to maintain itself, then it is destroyed. I'd suggest you ask Polymath if he shows up as he's our resident maths and physics expert.
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
Does "string" play a role in all that?
Dunno.
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
That is why I will stick with the process of cycle.
The age of our universe doesn't conflict with the cycling process. All it states is that our current universal expansion is 13.71 billion years old. But it is still possible that energy is eternal and a new universe is produced upon the death of a previous one. But at each start of a new universal expansion all information of the previous universe is destroyed, meaning we have no idea of its configuration or characteristics. It may not be ever possible to know. Or it might, if we can come up with a unified theory of quantum gravity. Again if you see Polymath ask him about all this since he's sh t-hot on the stuff.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83989
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me correct your statement from “WE” don’t know if eternity exists to “YOU” don’t know. The dude me and your understanding goes in opposite directions and your conclusions is not the same as mine.
We determined that your conclusions are worthless.
With sound reason and understanding to express why.
You are far short of relevant information in your hypothesis as stated to make a credible explanation, in anything so far stated by yourself.

Is that clear enough for you?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83990
Mar 30, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
On #1, the math used was a population statistic average over known history. I would need to look up the calc. Agree with the variable's involved. Its a question, not a proof.
On #2, he worked in a time when one could get more non-evolutionary challenges or things to think about past peer review. Never happen today. You can imagine, you could measure his job life in seconds, no 1/2 lives involved.
I knew Dr. M. Miller personally because of his work in Alaska. I once asked, "Maynard, how old is the oldest ice on the planet", his answer; "less than 6000 years", I asked, "do you have documentation on that", "yes its in one of my papers - "in the tables"! He sent me a copy. That was 30 years ago. OK, can we have a truce over this "what God thinks of me" stuff?
Oh my.

Mark has proof that the Ice caps are less than 6,000 years old. Form a noted glaciologist no less. He just forgot to publish that revolutionary claim

Maynard Miller is most famous for his work on the Juneau ice field. That is an actively flowing glacier and it is very possible that the age of the ice in it is less than 6,000 years. That does not mean the ice of the ice caps is only 6,000 years old. That has been shown by several dating methods to be much much older than that.

More made up stories by Mark. We have a very poor liar here.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Level 1

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83991
Mar 30, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually we don't need to reproduce them.
Not one person today needs to build a massive stone pyramid to get to heaven.
And to do so would be economically non-viable.
We could do it though.
I'm not talking about the pyramids. I'm talking about the stone vases and bowls in the museum.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83992
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
I never heard of planets in a revolutionary orbit without a sun.
Second, what is time?
The measure of distance between temporal points.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83993
Mar 30, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
See that popup for CSX?, they, UP, NFS, CN, CPR and others would have a good laugh at your assertion of my lack of integrity, liars are lousy inventors..
You could have invented the space shuttle for all I care. Doesn't stop you from lying.(shrug)
Mark wrote:
I must admit a Brit is on the patent with me on part of that one, he retired to NZ. Very glad to hear you are open... but your faith in evo creating things such a gold standard of all truth... Perplexing to me but your biz.
Evolution is only responsible for evolution, not "all things". That's the caricature creationists invented. See? Liars for Jesus CAN invent things. "Truth" however is subjective, which is why all religions lay claim to it. All science deals with is facts and evidence.
Mark wrote:
Apologize for stereotyping you with atheists, I really am sorry.
I was not offended, I am more than used to creationist straw-man caricatures and unwarranted assumptions. It is not often they are well versed in the subtleties of language. I have been known to treat fundies with kid gloves if I think they are being honest at first. Then when they find reality is not what they thought it was they either skeedaddle or start lying. Or some lie straight from the get-go, like our very own fake "Prof-X" who started this thread. They tend to get it with both barrels.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83994
Mar 30, 2013
 
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
I never heard of planets in a revolutionary orbit without a sun.
Second, what is time?
A continuum of successive universal states.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Level 1

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83995
Mar 30, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Repository? I thought they were generally star remnants. There is a large cluster at the center of the galaxy though.
<quoted text>
There's two possibilities. They don't disappear and all the information is trapped inside the singularity. Or the information bleeds away as Hawking radiation until there's not enough mass left inside the black hole to maintain itself, then it is destroyed. I'd suggest you ask Polymath if he shows up as he's our resident maths and physics expert.
<quoted text>
Dunno.
<quoted text>
The age of our universe doesn't conflict with the cycling process. All it states is that our current universal expansion is 13.71 billion years old. But it is still possible that energy is eternal and a new universe is produced upon the death of a previous one. But at each start of a new universal expansion all information of the previous universe is destroyed, meaning we have no idea of its configuration or characteristics. It may not be ever possible to know. Or it might, if we can come up with a unified theory of quantum gravity. Again if you see Polymath ask him about all this since he's sh t-hot on the stuff.
I know poly. Haven't seen him in some time though.
Thanks for your thoughts.
All is hypothesis still.

Isn't Hawking working on a new paper about it?

Tell me when this thread is updated: (Registration is not required)

Add to my Tracker Send me an email

Type in your comments below
Name
(appears on your post)
Comments
Characters left: 4000
Type the numbers you see in the image on the right:

Please note by clicking on "Post Comment" you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

•••
•••