Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 172002 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83941 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> And that only goes back to 4.4 mil yrs ago.
That's just the fossils that were mentioned. As I pointed out scientists hypothesized common ancestry with chimps based on the fossil record at a point roughly around 7MY ago. That was backed up by genetics.
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
in Ethiopia like I said...and they are still arguing whether that is even part of the hominid line.
Again, perfectly normal. There is no way to definitively determine ancestry without DNA, so we may never know for sure whether that fossil is a direct descendent or from a nearby line that branched off. But what is evident is the general pattern of change that was successfully predicted by evolution.
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
Like I said before...how about some accountability rather than speculation before making statements as though they are facts.
The fact is that we have ape-like fossils going back millions of years. The general trend observed in geological strata indicates a gradual modification of characteristics the further up the strata we go, getting closer and closer in appearance to todays great apes. Using comparative anatomy we find that chimp skeletons are most similar to ours, followed by gorillas, then orangutans. This same pattern of similarity is coincidentally observed in genetics. Calculations based on mutation rates indicate common ancestry around 6-7MY ago. These are the facts.

The alternatives to evolution proposed thus far are:

1 - Goddidit with magic to make everything LOOK just like this.

2 - Infinite Force's idea is that alien UFO's keep dropping off new animals every 1 million years. He can show you a youtube vid of sun shining off dust and other airborne particles while close to a wall which he claims are vast swarms of alien spacecraft which have been otherwise undetected by billions of dollars worth of orbital satellites.

Ergo evolution is the only theory making successful scientific predictions here.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83942 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
Right.
See my post about Baalbek.
All they need is lots of people, rope, tools, and time. There's no great miracle about it. None of these rocks are so ridiculously tough that they require space-age laser-cutters. Cut they cut stone? Yes. Could they file them smooth? Yes. Could they move heavy objects with rope and roll them on logs? Yes. If something was too heavy could they just get more people? Yes.

They did NOT have cranes. They did NOT have modern motorized cutting tools. They did NOT have spaceships. And since humans had already been around for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS at this point, this is NOT something evolution needs to explain. It's something for archaeologists to figure out as they debate over the development of cooperative cultures.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83943 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> Yes. God forbid if someone points to an obvious flaw in any research or hypothesis though.
And God forbid that anyone try to submit these "obvious flaws" for peer-review. Fortunately that's where our big massive science conspiracy protects us.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83944 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> What's yer point?
DNA then demonstrates evolution.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83945 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
I am just doing what you do to me.
How ya like it bud?
I'm cool with it.(shrug)
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> That was your statement...so?
So either the science we present is correct or there really is a great big science conspiracy. That IS what most anti-science promoters think, so all you need to do is say you wanna be as daft as a creationist. However if you don't wanna be as daft as a creationist then I don't blame you. Neither do I.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#83946 Mar 30, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to understand that I came from same persuasion and worldview as you in my youth. I was immersed in all the same origins information X10 coming from the home of a noted and nationally recognized senior biologist. I even tagged onto his field, did research, field trips and wrote papers before I was 18, and notably made predictions that came to pass, I was on my way.
The moon deal is big to me. Living in Alaska and operating boats and vessels in 20-30 ft tides is serious business. We all had the tide tables in our heads. It was a continuous battle, memorable after you bust your back for hours dragging boats over huge flats or getting locked up on a reef for hours. I thought as you that the world was an accidental given, and life was a battle of will, physics and fate. I was as tough as they come to win over it. Then I had an event, I had dodged fate one too many times and my number was up. At that moment I was given another chance by something bigger than I knew existed. For some reason I was passed over, not by my chance but by as I discovered later, by Gods Grace. Then I got it - I had been fooled, tricked and kept in the dark about the biggest truth in life; the existence of Almighty God!
My perspective radically changed, I realized that this beautiful planet and universe was made for us, and was not an accidental lab for some chance existence at some far off date. Thatís the lie, to fool us into thinking we have no value, we all do. The Creator had set the moon in just the right place, made just the correct size and at just the right distance for our benefit, in the very beginning, not by chance. The soils are in wonderful quantity, the weather patterns, although extreme at times, work wonderfully, and the sun and moons position work perfectly to pull it all together. We only see a broken image of a wonderful "Very Good" earth and the life that was originally placed here. It fit, I got it and the evidence is all there. Believe in accidents all you want, the hand of God is everywhere. Another "Black Box" was opened, the final one.
No one here is interested in your trite, tiresome preaching, Jesus Boy.

We all have our own individual way of looking at the world that makes sense to us and we all have our own spiritual lives.

Again, not interested in yours.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83947 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
You can "snicker" all you want...it doesn't change the facts.
Can you find anyone{{{anyone}}} who can produce the stone vases and bowls in the Egyptian museum?
The ancient Egyptians.

But I guess technically we can't since now they're all dead.

:-/
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83948 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
No.
No.
Perpetual cyclic motion...so ageless.
Uh oh. Here comes Mikey!

:-/
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83949 Mar 30, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text> It may be part of a cycle "maybe"? Who really knows. Every 6-12 months a new hypothesis comes out. It's almost comical. I would like to see something concrete.
Actually the age of the universe has been considered to be around 13.71 billion years (give or take a few hundred thousand) for longer than I've been alive. See, new scientific hypotheses which replace older ones in general tend to get more accurate as we go along.

“Universal Conscious Conscience”

Level 3

Since: Feb 08

Planet Earth

#83950 Mar 30, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet we had a law of gravity. Worked out by some guy called Newton (you may have heard of him). Mercury violates that law.
If you want to believe mercury is not governed by gravity thatís your choice.
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Then since Mercury violates that law then the law must be wrong.
Gravity keeps this planet in its orbit. Universal constant stands!
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
After all, "laws" are merely abstract concepts invented by humans as a guideline for expected actions either in culture or in practical/scientific principles.
The empirical data observed in the laws of nature is not ďinventedĒ by humans and behaves a certain way.
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet evolution doesn't violate it. Mercury does. Ergo the "law" of gravity is simply wrong, which is why it got replaced by the THEORY of relativity. Which is in turn being replaced by the theory of quantum mechanics. Whereas evolution on the other hand MAY contradict YOUR so-called "law" re: species, however reality shows that it contradicts your "law". Ergo your claims about species are simply incorrect and life can and does change over time, which does NOT violate any laws of non-contradiction. It merely contradicts your assumption that evolution did not and cannot happen. However your baseless opinions aren't relevant.(shrug)
Mercury told me to tell you to stop saying itís not attracted (gravity) to our star.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#83951 Mar 30, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Complexity = design, design = Designer.
Not at all. You just ASSERT this, because you NEED to to make your silly argument work.

Are snowflakes each individually designed by Jesus?
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
We can go back and forth arguing weather in your opinion an eye formed itself, or the complex reaction after a photon strikes a rod to create sight utterly dashes every evolutionary pretext mathematically, stretches every element of reason into the ridiculous, and has never been, nor can be replicated is your kind of "science"?
Unfortunately for you, whenever we DO go back and forth on the evolution of the eye, etc. we have lots of science behind us, whereas all you have is a threadbare Argument From Incredulity.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Your side asserts that time, mutations and chance produce it and a thousand other biochemical features in life (and life itself), requires faith outside of science, as mine does.
If you want to know why people get rough with you on this thread and call you a lying Christian asshole, for instance, the sentence above is a good indicator.

HOW MANY TIMES have we corrected you and told you that it's not "time, mutations and chance" but "time, mutations and the filtering force of natural selection, which is NOT random chance"?

You'll be brutally labeled just what you ARE as long as you keep distorting and lying about what science says evolution is and how it works. We realize that you NEED to lie and distort like this, otherwise you couldn't even come within hailing distance of a good counter-argument, but you need to ask yourself why your position requires you to lie and distort.

Maybe you're on the wrong side?
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
The Goddoneit position makes fantastic complexity point to God. Thatís His business, it's pretty amazing work, and He choose creation to be a daily reminder for us.
It ain't SCIENCE, thats the point, so you sleazy Jesus Freaks need to stay OUT OF our public school SCIENCE classrooms with your religious opinions. If you did, there would be no controversy.

Have geologists ever found oil or other minerals using this "scientific" principle that "fantastic complexity point to God. Thatís His business, it's pretty amazing work, and He choose creation to be a daily reminder for us"?
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't "believe" that man was here in the beginning based on your faith in the same origins science that tells you sight is an easy accident!
No faith involved at all. We have EVIDENCE -- TONS of it in our textbooks, peer-reviewed scientific papers, museums and DNA labs.

We KNOW that the earth is very old and that humanity came along comparatively recently by evolving out of the earlier ape family.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#83952 Mar 30, 2013
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
Gravity keeps this planet in its orbit. Universal constant stands!
actually, i thought it was the warping of space/time that did that...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#83953 Mar 30, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
All early human history show that Ag was going on, not to mention the Bible.
Don't know what you mean by "Ag" here.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Playing in perceptions can get you far in politics and the self-feeding world of evolutionary thought, but it will not change truth, that is my absolute.
Truth is relative. Truth is an OPINION held by a limited, fallible, relative human ind. You just illustrated that by your own sentence, by the way.

".. but it will not change truth, that is MY absolute." In other words, you hold an OPINION that such and such is "The Truthô" most likely because you were taught this by your parents or programmed to believe this by your pastor and Bible teachers, etc.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you tire of calling everyone that doesn't agree with your opinions "liars" get old?
No, because you keep lying, distorting the truth, deliberately making straw man arguments then knocking them down, etc.

You are either lying or you are genuinely stupid. Since you claim to be educated and a working scientists, I have to conclude that you are a liar, i.e. thoroughly dishonest in your pushing of the Jesus message.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Level 1

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#83954 Mar 30, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Possible perhaps, but unlikely, since many contemporary humans would also have been susceptible to the same virus.
Not if "they were the carriers? It is now being postulated that there may have been glacial boundaries in the European populations at some point. I don't have a link at hand to it, but I did read that...so it may be a factor also.
Anyway, something more to add to the puzzle.

“Universal Conscious Conscience”

Level 3

Since: Feb 08

Planet Earth

#83955 Mar 30, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Science deals with conflict in empirical evidence, these states do exist. So contradiction itself is universal in a great many things we have learned, particle/wave manifestation, Quantum entanglement where the future decision can affect the past states of the particles, relativity itself . There is a host of paradoxical events, where any law of contradiction will break down and become meaningless. This does not void science, rather proves some things to be counter intuitive and conflictory to the human
psyche. Which is dependent on a perception of space/time not everything is bound to.
I speak of the laws that govern the empirical evidence not the empirical evidence itself. This is when you will discover a universal law constant. This is a whole nother level of thinking because now you know you can not come to a conclusion unless it's a scientific law or self-evident truth.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#83956 Mar 30, 2013
Mark wrote:
You need to understand that I came from same persuasion and worldview as you in my youth.
You're breaking my heart.
Mark wrote:
I was immersed in all the same origins information X10 coming from the home of a noted and nationally recognized senior biologist. I even tagged onto his field, did research, field trips and wrote papers before I was 18, and notably made predictions that came to pass, I was on my way.
Of course you did. Which is why you lack the most basic science education in biology.
Mark wrote:
The moon deal is big to me. Living in Alaska and operating boats and vessels in 20-30 ft tides is serious business. We all had the tide tables in our heads. It was a continuous battle, memorable after you bust your back for hours dragging boats over huge flats or getting locked up on a reef for hours. I thought as you that the world was an accidental given, and life was a battle of will, physics and fate.
Keep beating up that straw-man, Marky.
Mark wrote:
I was as tough as they come to win over it. Then I had an event, I had dodged fate one too many times and my number was up. At that moment I was given another chance by something bigger than I knew existed. For some reason I was passed over, not by my chance but by as I discovered later, by Gods Grace. Then I got it - I had been fooled, tricked and kept in the dark about the biggest truth in life; the existence of Almighty God!
My perspective radically changed, I realized that this beautiful planet and universe was made for us, and was not an accidental lab for some chance existence at some far off date. Thatís the lie, to fool us into thinking we have no value, we all do.
The lie is that what science teaches. It doesn't. In fact it makes no theological claims at all.
Mark wrote:
The Creator had set the moon in just the right place, made just the correct size and at just the right distance for our benefit, in the very beginning, not by chance.
Via what scientific mechanism?
Mark wrote:
The soils are in wonderful quantity
Plenty of soil on Mars.(shrug)
Mark wrote:
the weather patterns, although extreme at times, work wonderfully, and the sun and moons position work perfectly to pull it all together.
"Perfect" is subjective. Fact is the moon was closer in the past. The universe is constantly changing.
Mark wrote:
We only see a broken image of a wonderful "Very Good" earth and the life that was originally placed here. It fit, I got it and the evidence is all there. Believe in accidents all you want, the hand of God is everywhere. Another "Black Box" was opened, the final one.
Nice appeal to ignorance and emotion ya got there. However I'm still waiting for you to apologize for breaking the 9th Commandment. Apparently God does not mean that much to you.(shrug)

“Universal Conscious Conscience”

Level 3

Since: Feb 08

Planet Earth

#83957 Mar 30, 2013
Milena N wrote:
Hi,geeks!How is it going?
Pretty good bigger geek (because you got more posts then I do).

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Level 1

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#83958 Mar 30, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
That's just the fossils that were mentioned. As I pointed out scientists hypothesized common ancestry with chimps based on the fossil record at a point roughly around 7MY ago. That was backed up by genetics.
<quoted text>
Again, perfectly normal. There is no way to definitively determine ancestry without DNA, so we may never know for sure whether that fossil is a direct descendent or from a nearby line that branched off. But what is evident is the general pattern of change that was successfully predicted by evolution.
<quoted text>
The fact is that we have ape-like fossils going back millions of years. The general trend observed in geological strata indicates a gradual modification of characteristics the further up the strata we go, getting closer and closer in appearance to todays great apes. Using comparative anatomy we find that chimp skeletons are most similar to ours, followed by gorillas, then orangutans. This same pattern of similarity is coincidentally observed in genetics. Calculations based on mutation rates indicate common ancestry around 6-7MY ago. These are the facts.
The alternatives to evolution proposed thus far are:
1 - Goddidit with magic to make everything LOOK just like this.
2 - Infinite Force's idea is that alien UFO's keep dropping off new animals every 1 million years. He can show you a youtube vid of sun shining off dust and other airborne particles while close to a wall which he claims are vast swarms of alien spacecraft which have been otherwise undetected by billions of dollars worth of orbital satellites.
Ergo evolution is the only theory making successful scientific predictions here.
I follow that, even though it has it's own pitfalls here and there. Like the pelvic bones becoming smaller and making birth even more difficult, resulting in the infant actually being born prematurely in humans as compared to apes.
This could possibly be a distinct advantage in the human becoming more intelligent though. The child's brain and awareness is still developing for about 1 year after birth, so has a multitude more information during that development period.
Mark

United States

#83959 Mar 30, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
No one here is interested in your trite, tiresome preaching, Jesus Boy.
We all have our own individual way of looking at the world that makes sense to us and we all have our own spiritual lives.
Again, not interested in yours.

As I see it, based on your past stereotyping, belittling and intolerant remarks toward me and others of the same faith or origins understanding, your prejudice is screaming. I see a "stomp them out" attitude in your posts.

If you think you can bully me off because I am of another faith or origins understanding with hate-words and weak arguments, you are very mistaken.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#83960 Mar 30, 2013
Infinite Force wrote:
<quoted text>
I speak of the laws that govern the empirical evidence not the empirical evidence itself. This is when you will discover a universal law constant. This is a whole nother level of thinking because now you know you can not come to a conclusion unless it's a scientific law or self-evident truth.
You can mumble in your cassock all that you want.

The only person you are fooling is yourself.

So once again, how do these so called laws of yours apply to evolution?

Your nonsensical idea of species being constant has already been debunked. Do you want to go over that again?

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