Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Read more

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#83004 Mar 26, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
It "fits for you" solely because of your a priori fundamentalist Christian Bible beliefs which require the acceptance of the Genesis creation myth as literal, factual history (otherwise, in your mind, the entire edifice of Fall/Redemption theology immediately collapses and there would be no need to "believe in Jesus" and no need to be "saved.")
What do the rest of your colleagues make of these supposed anomalies in coal formation? Do they all express shock and the reversion of their beliefs into Young Earth?
Let me ask you something I have repeatedly asked of Christian YECs here on TOPIX and never gotten a response. It seems like a reasonable question to me:
Can you give us the name of one qualified working PhD biologist or geologist who is NOT a Christian and NOT religious, but yet who thinks the world is only 6000 years old and humanity sprang from two first humans 6000 years ago BASED SOLELY ON THE EVIDENCE?
This should be easy for you since you seem connected to the YEC websites and knowledge base and if such a person exists, their name would likely be bandied about very freely, I would think.
mark is sure sounding like another of langoliers sock puppets, isn't he?

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#83005 Mar 26, 2013
LupyLu wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Religions are based on politics.
Leave politics for Government.
It is the Government that have one or more romance with Religions in order to secure their votes.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#83006 Mar 26, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
The study maybe guessing about perceived things that supposedly happened in the past, most just reverberate the dogma and make it happen a long time back, a nice story, but that doesn't fly with me.
No, because your a priori Bible beliefs won't let it. That's not doing science, but rather Christian apologetics.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
It starts in the cell and ends there.
I suspect this is because you KNOW that the evolution of the cell is still a bit hazy compared to the rock-solid knowledge we have about the tree of life, the fossil record and the DNA genome, all of which point strongly to evolution.

Rather than try to topple all of that -- which you cannot -- you would rather try to spin out arguments from incredulity about the cell and how it first came about. It's a standard, well-worn Creationist/ID tactic.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
If mutations work positive change then it should have been replicated in the lab log ago.
Lensky.

The evolution of the ability of bacterial species to metabolize citrates when citrates were introduced into the environment. The ability to EAT and get nourishment to stay alive would seem to be a "positive change."
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
This talk of all this data self-writing via mindless self-directed upward change in these super-complex organisms is flatly absurd and has no basis in common experience or reason.
Descent with modification by mutations, genetic drift and sexual recombination of genes PLUS the filtering action of natural selection. Those are the mechanisms.

It appears to be mindless, it is NOT self-directed or directed in any way except by natural selection, and "upward" is a value judgement you are adding after the fact.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
The assertion that DNA or mtDNA is not analogous to code is a lie.
It may be ROUGLY analogous to a code in some ways, but NOT in other, important ways. Like most devious, agenda-driven Christians, you define "code" here in a way that serves your need to make DNA seem like a conscious communication.

It isn't. It's a bunch of admittedly complicated CHEMICAL REACTIONS.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
The cell is a super-miniature, ultra-complex molecular chemical machine, needs fuel, has motion and unlike the 747 you mentioned, can repair and replicate itself!
Yes, the cell is amazing! We agree!

That doesn't mean it was consciously created by your Jesus. For that, you have no evidence and nothing, really, but self-serving, vague arm-waving arguments from incredulity. Plus a NEED for it to be true in order to protect your religious beliefs from the harsh light of reality.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
So what you are saying is that the bio-machine is more complex than any of man's machines, yet is formed by accident without intelligence!
Straw man argument. The laws of chemistry are not accidental.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
One in experience is obvious: intelligence operating on matter to make something,
You have demonstrated this in things we KNOW humans produce: watches, 747s and computer codes. You have YET to demonstrate it in biological organisms. You just throw up your hands and assert it and expect us to make that leap with you. Not how science works, is it?
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
the other in the evolutionary paradigm is not obvious in experience nor operationally: mindless, self-directed and accidental in nature but more complex than anything man can conceive or create in reality!
It can't be "self-directed" if it's "mindless," can it? Hadn't you better get your story straight? LOL

Nether the laws of chemistry nor natural selection are "accidental" in any real sense, so once again, you post the standard Christian straw man argument.
Mark

United States

#83008 Mar 26, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
All evolution needs is life. We have life. Life evolves. Facts. Observed. Repeatable. Testable. Just because you are ignorant of reality doesn't make science wrong.
<quoted text>
accepts evolution. I told you ages ago you're out of date and lying.
<quoted text>
Also answered ages ago. Bilateral symmetry. Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean it's wrong.
<quoted text>
You're lying and saying it's a big conspiracy. Fact is funding would be cut if evolution didn't work.
<quoted text>
It was.
<quoted text>
False.
<quoted text>
Then you should be the first man in history to tell us all what the "code" is and the mechanisms responsible for it.
You won't.(shrug)
You may want to read Denton and AE Wilder-Smith to bring you up to speed on your question. High schooler's are shown blobs and lighting striking a pond of chemicals, that was supposedly to have kick started all of this mindless complexity. Backed by the media, Nat'l Geo, Sagan etc. and ID being mocked at every level they have no chance to think reasonably, they have been brainwashed. In my view only a higher intelligence acting on chemicals offers a reasonable solution to the origin and complexity of life.

I have friends that have views different than mine, do I think of them as foolish?, no. They have as much to offer in society and their families as any of us on my side. Opposing viewpoints are healthy for us all, it makes us think, research and challenge our thinking. That's not wrong. I know a Russian that I saw every weekend all winter for years, I would say to him "(name), look, you always want to talk about religion and politics with me, we have to see each other weekly, I like you and can deal with it, are you good with this?", he would say sure. He had a lot of jokes about sex, one day I said to him "(blank),do you realize that if women had the same intense sex drive functions as men there would be no such thing as marriage, couples would be running off anywhere @ anytime and marriage would be pointless??" This got him thinking, how did sex evolve into to that only in humans? We are different than animals. He was eating an orange one day and I said, "look at that thing, the color and how each slice is a perfect bite". Later he became a believer in God. His wife is Jewish, both are highly educated professors. They had two boys and always wanted a girl. After that they soon had a girl, the happiest couple I know.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83009 Mar 26, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, he said he didn't cancel them, just that there would now be two seperate ways to follow this multi-faced god...sheesh, learn your bible...
regardless, why would a real god EVER condone slavery?
face it, your man-made cult is a myth...
Bull woody. The old testament was a trial set up for the children of Abraham. God realized that the chosen people, the Hebrews couldn't follow the laws set forth. So He sent His only begotten Son so that Jews and Gentiles alike would have a chance to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. All the burnt offerings and ceremonies couldn't save the chosen ones. God realized that humanity is weak and unable to save themselves. Thank You Jesus for your sacrifice!!! YOU woody are the one who really doesn't understand the Word. You are so blinded by your hatred for all things of God that you miss the very Message It's trying to deliver. Pity.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83010 Mar 26, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Wellllll, I've always thought bureaucrats were in league with the devil.(shrug)
They are. Read Revelation about the governments crumbling from within.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83011 Mar 26, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
But that's not actually the case, is it? Your Government has had a bad habit of giving all the billionaires and trillionaires tax breaks while depending on the working class to pay all the taxes. No wonder you're having problems.(shrug)
Hysterical as well as hypocritical. The queeeen is one of the richest people on the face of the earth. All courtesy of you folks.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83012 Mar 26, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, so Mike the mechanic has to pay 40% of his earnings and struggle to send his kids to college while the rich pay 40% and are forced to buy only one yacht instead of two this year. Boo hoo.
Right,......and your point queeeenie contributor?

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#83013 Mar 26, 2013
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
Bull woody. The old testament was a trial set up for the children of Abraham. God realized that the chosen people, the Hebrews couldn't follow the laws set forth. So He sent His only begotten Son so that Jews and Gentiles alike would have a chance to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. All the burnt offerings and ceremonies couldn't save the chosen ones. God realized that humanity is weak and unable to save themselves. Thank You Jesus for your sacrifice!!! YOU woody are the one who really doesn't understand the Word. You are so blinded by your hatred for all things of God that you miss the very Message It's trying to deliver. Pity.
So how can a god condone slavery? EVER. regardless of whether he realized he was wrong about it later?

you can't get around the fact that your god said in no uncertain terms that slavery was OK....not any god a rational person, or a moral one, would follow.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83014 Mar 26, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>the moon was formed long after the earth and sun were formed. proven fact.
How does your statement NOT confirm Creation?
Mark

United States

#83015 Mar 26, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
No, because your a priori Bible beliefs won't let it. That's not doing science, but rather Christian apologetics.
<quoted text>
I suspect this is because you KNOW that the evolution of the cell is still a bit hazy compared to the rock-solid knowledge we have about the tree of life, the fossil record and the DNA genome, all of which point strongly to evolution.
Rather than try to topple all of that -- which you cannot -- you would rather try to spin out arguments from incredulity about the cell and how it first came about. It's a standard, well-worn Creationist/ID tactic.
<quoted text>
Lensky.
The evolution of the ability of bacterial species to metabolize citrates when citrates were introduced into the environment. The ability to EAT and get nourishment to stay alive would seem to be a "positive change."
<quoted text>
Descent with modification by mutations, genetic drift and sexual recombination of genes PLUS the filtering action of natural selection. Those are the mechanisms.
It appears to be mindless, it is NOT self-directed or directed in any way except by natural selection, and "upward" is a value judgement you are adding after the fact.
<quoted text>
It may be ROUGLY analogous to a code in some ways, but NOT in other, important ways. Like most devious, agenda-driven Christians, you define "code" here in a way that serves your need to make DNA seem like a conscious communication.
It isn't. It's a bunch of admittedly complicated CHEMICAL REACTIONS.
<quoted text>
Yes, the cell is amazing! We agree!
That doesn't mean it was consciously created by your Jesus. For that, you have no evidence and nothing, really, but self-serving, vague arm-waving arguments from incredulity. Plus a NEED for it to be true in order to protect your religious beliefs from the harsh light of reality.
<quoted text>
Straw man argument. The laws of chemistry are not accidental.
<quoted text>
You have demonstrated this in things we KNOW humans produce: watches, 747s and computer codes. You have YET to demonstrate it in biological organisms. You just throw up your hands and assert it and expect us to make that leap with you. Not how science works, is it?
<quoted text>
It can't be "self-directed" if it's "mindless," can it? Hadn't you better get your story straight? LOL
Nether the laws of chemistry nor natural selection are "accidental" in any real sense, so once again, you post the standard Christian straw man argument.
There are only DNA read receptors in the cell, there are no write heads. Even if there were, an argument could be made for "God directed" evolution but ID would still be required, it's too complex.
The human DNA has a stop bit and a second read head, this allows a DNA code string to be shorter but hold much more command information than lower life forms like a mouse. This can be measured in GB, hardly believable as a slight of hand, authored by accident and chance and is similar to modern data compression techniques. The cell mocks the efforts of man in complexity and size because it's all done at the molecular level. Crick understood this and postulated that it came in from spaceships, because it's all too complex and points to ID. "Panasperma" is the name of his book. Even Darwin said "they have made a religion out of my theory". When you read "Species" at least he is honest about the challenges of complexity, he mentions the eye and other things.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83016 Mar 26, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>what difference does it make what testament it was in. your god says it is Ok to own other humans. how do you justitfy that?
how can it be that you have better morals than your god? or do you condone slavery?
How misinformed can you be, of course it matters what Testament it's in. You have never gotten the Message at ALL!

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#83017 Mar 26, 2013
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
How misinformed can you be, of course it matters what Testament it's in. You have never gotten the Message at ALL!
so you don't worship god, just jesus? how does that work?

theology is not your forte, is it? what is your forte?
Patriot

Antioch, TN

#83018 Mar 26, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>What does that have to do with patriot casting false accusations at people?
do try to keep up, dear...
It has everything to do with false accusations, one was heaped upon me back on page 3960 as I listed previously,seemingly you want to ignore what was thrown my way.Seems you think it is ok when you and your friends hurl insults,but when one is returned you cry FOUL.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83019 Mar 26, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>So how can a god condone slavery? EVER. regardless of whether he realized he was wrong about it later?
you can't get around the fact that your god said in no uncertain terms that slavery was OK....not any god a rational person, or a moral one, would follow.
Slavery was a fact of humanity. So was famine, pestilence, birth defects, baroness and infertility, death. Whatever the sin, it existed because Adam and Eve chose the tree of life, the fruit of knowledge; and with it all the corruption of the world. Once again, you blame God for humanity's short comings. To clarify, not everyone of God's people owned slaves. No rational person would condone homosexuality since it doesn't provide the outcome of the union of two humans, OFFSPRING. Yet it is treated as though it's an alternate lifestyle.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#83020 Mar 26, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
The cell mocks the efforts of man in complexity and size because it's all done at the molecular level. Crick understood this and postulated that it came in from spaceships, because it's all too complex and points to ID.
He never postulated it but rather speculated it.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Even Darwin said "they have made a religion out of my theory".
Six things Darwin never said – and one he did
http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/six-things-dar...

"I was a young man with uninformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions, wondering all the time over everything; and to my astonishment the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion of them."

This one is in an article claiming to describe Darwin’s deathbed return to Christianity. His children denied that the author, Lady Hope, was anywhere near Darwin as he was dying, and the story is generally considered to have been fabricated.
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
When you read "Species" at least he is honest about the challenges of complexity, he mentions the eye and other things.
Yes, he mentions the complexity of the eye, then gives THREE PAGES OF EXPLANATION OF THE MANY WAYS THE EYE PROBABLY EVOLVED. And modern science backs him up.

Out of ignorance or rank dishonesty, though, you Christians just mention his opening statement, that the eye may SEEM to be too complex to have evolved.
CBOW

Dover, PA

#83021 Mar 26, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>so you don't worship god, just jesus? how does that work?
theology is not your forte, is it? what is your forte?
I didn't say that, don't manufacture statements woody. I worship Them Both for They Both are part of Heaven. The Father and the Son. That's HOW IT WORKS.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#83022 Mar 26, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Crick understood this and postulated that it came in from spaceships, because it's all too complex and points to ID. "Panasperma" is the name of his book.
I can find no reference to any such book written by Francis Crick.

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#83023 Mar 26, 2013
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>It has everything to do with false accusations, one was heaped upon me back on page 3960 as I listed previously,seemingly you want to ignore what was thrown my way.Seems you think it is ok when you and your friends hurl insults,but when one is returned you cry FOUL.
Ummm, that was clearly AFTER you hurled such false accusations at me...that is what that post was about!

get a life...you can't even defend your own horrid actions.

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#83024 Mar 26, 2013
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't say that, don't manufacture statements woody. I worship Them Both for They Both are part of Heaven. The Father and the Son. That's HOW IT WORKS.
So it would matter which book of the bible it was in ans which testament. your ogd told you in no uncertain terms that it is OK for you to own other humans.

how can you justify that? how can you follow such an immoral god?

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