Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#82522
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Bible, Tons and Tons of evidence.
Pop goes the tick.
Nope, all you have is the Bible, and you don't even follow that.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#82523
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"Note, the Biblical Hebrew word for “circle”(חוגchuwg) can also mean “round” or “sphere.”
“The Earth a Sphere—Certain astronomical relations were recognized very early. The stars appear as if attached to a globe rotating round the earth once in 24 hours, and this appearance was clearly familiar to the author of the Book of Job, and indeed long before the time of Abraham, since the formation of the constellations could not have been effected without such recognition. But the spherical form of the heavens almost involves a similar form for the earth, and their apparent diurnal rotation certainly means that they are not rigidly connected with the earth, but surround it on all sides at some distance from it. The earth therefore must be freely suspended in space, and so the Book of Job describes it:‘He stretcheth out the north over empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing’(Job 26:7).”(International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)]
Proverbs 8:27 also suggests a round earth by use of the word circle (e.g., New King James Bible and New American Standard Bible). If you are overlooking the ocean, the horizon appears as a circle. This circle on the horizon is described in Job 26:10. The circle on the face of the waters is one of the proofs that the Greeks used for a spherical earth. Yet here it is recorded in Job, ages before the Greeks discovered it. Job 26:10 indicates that where light terminates, darkness begins. This suggests day and night on a spherical globe.[JSM]
The Hebrew record is the oldest, because Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. Historians generally [wrongly] credit the Greeks with being the first to suggest a spherical earth. In the sixth century B.C., Pythagoras suggested a spherical earth.[JSM]"
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c0...
Nope, not good enough. If a word can have two meanings then you need to show that by context it means what you want it to.

By context all of the verses in the Bible are of a flat Earth.

Plus the Hebrews were not known as seafarers. They were local fisherman at best. Their is no evidence of the discovering that the world is round.

I asked for a verse that clearly describes a spherical Earth, not apologetics. Apologetics are used when the facts of the world don't match up with the Bible. In other words they are attempts to weasel out of a space Christians don't want to be in.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#82524
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
So everything is a mutation of it's mother source of DNA? LOL
Ok. Next.
Reading fail. Try again.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#82525
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
So everything is a mutation of it's mother source of DNA? LOL
Ok. Next.
How else do you explain the differences?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#82526
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
So then all lava flows cannot be dated.
Dust thrown up by eruption cannot be dated because it was lava from a volcano lave dome. In fact all rock on earth was molten as the earth formed so it can't be dated either. Dust from space can't be dated because it came from a molten star.
No rocks can then be dated.
Wrong. Some rocks cannot be dated. They are the exception rather than the norm. Finding out why the dating failed allows us to not make the same mistake again.

Are you saying that if I find one error in the Bible the whole Bible is worthless? Hmm, you might have a point in that case.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

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#82527
Mar 24, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. Some rocks cannot be dated. They are the exception rather than the norm. Finding out why the dating failed allows us to not make the same mistake again.
Are you saying that if I find one error in the Bible the whole Bible is worthless? Hmm, you might have a point in that case.
Well, dating rocks has never claimed to be infallible. the bible on the other hand...

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

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#82528
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
So then all lava flows cannot be dated.
Dust thrown up by eruption cannot be dated because it was lava from a volcano lave dome. In fact all rock on earth was molten as the earth formed so it can't be dated either. Dust from space can't be dated because it came from a molten star.
No rocks can then be dated.
this is what happens when you try to talk about subjects you do not understand...

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

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#82529
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
So then all lava flows cannot be dated.
Dust thrown up by eruption cannot be dated because it was lava from a volcano lave dome. In fact all rock on earth was molten as the earth formed so it can't be dated either. Dust from space can't be dated because it came from a molten star.
No rocks can then be dated.
*sigh*

No, ya halfwit.

Of course it can be dated.

And, of course, creationist nutters like your Steve Austin (is that REALLY his name?) can mismeasure and misinterpret and force-to-fit all they want.

The point remains - if they were doing it right, it'd be the accepted norm, and they'd be in the forefront of geological research.
Instead of out on the loonie fringe.

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#82530
Mar 24, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>Nope, not good enough. If a word can have two meanings then you need to show that by context it means what you want it to.

By context all of the verses in the Bible are of a flat Earth.

Plus the Hebrews were not known as seafarers. They were local fisherman at best. Their is no evidence of the discovering that the world is round.

I asked for a verse that clearly describes a spherical Earth, not apologetics. Apologetics are used when the facts of the world don't match up with the Bible. In other words they are attempts to weasel out of a space Christians don't want to be in.
"I asked for a verse that clearly describes a spherical Earth"

Why? Would it really matter to you?

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#82531
Mar 24, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>Reading fail. Try again.
Nope, sorry I won't go down your loony tune road.

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#82532
Mar 24, 2013
 
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>How else do you explain the differences?
You need to learn about genes and DNA.

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#82533
Mar 24, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>Wrong. Some rocks cannot be dated. They are the exception rather than the norm. Finding out why the dating failed allows us to not make the same mistake again.

Are you saying that if I find one error in the Bible the whole Bible is worthless? Hmm, you might have a point in that case.
Just going off an atheist rules for rock dating.

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#82534
Mar 24, 2013
 
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>this is what happens when you try to talk about subjects you do not understand...
who="macumazahn" quoted text>Oboy.

You think solidified magma is somehow "new"?

Here, just for exercise: ever wonder how old the friggin' magma was before it surfaced?

Since: Apr 12

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#82535
Mar 24, 2013
 
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>*sigh*

No, ya halfwit.

Of course it can be dated.

And, of course, creationist nutters like your Steve Austin (is that REALLY his name?) can mismeasure and misinterpret and force-to-fit all they want.

The point remains - if they were doing it right, it'd be the accepted norm, and they'd be in the forefront of geological research.
Instead of out on the loonie fringe.
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Oboy.

You think solidified magma is somehow "new"?

Here, just for exercise: ever wonder how old the friggin' magma was before it surfaced?
Why this then?

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

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#82536
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Just going off an atheist rules for rock dating.
Again, the science of dating racks never claimed to be infallible while your bible clearly did...in fact , the entire [premise is that the god that inpired and divinely guided the bible was infallible...

seems to be myth...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

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#82537
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"I asked for a verse that clearly describes a spherical Earth"
Why? Would it really matter to you?
You were the one that jumped into a conversation. If you run away I don't really care.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

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#82538
Mar 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you really think a bunch of Christians ran in and took over these
Labs and did the testing themselves?
These test were done by Scientist the same people that test dating and use these machines everyday. It's just that it take some groups to stand up and hold science to a level of reliability so fools like
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013_1...

Creationist Claim CD013.1:

The conventional K-Ar dating method was applied to the 1986 dacite flow from the new lava dome at Mount St. Helens, Washington. The whole-rock age was 0.35 +/- 0.05 million years (Mya). Ages for component minerals varied from 0.34 +/- 0.06 Mya to 2.8 +/- 0.6 Mya. These ages show that the K-Ar method is invalid.

Response:

1. Austin sent his samples to a laboratory that clearly states that their equipment cannot accurately measure samples less than two million years old. All of the measured ages but one fall well under the stated limit of accuracy, so the method applied to them is obviously inapplicable. Since Austin misused the measurement technique, he should expect inaccurate results, but the fault is his, not the technique's. Experimental error is a possible explanation for the older date.

2. Austin's samples were not homogeneous, as he himself admitted. Any xenocrysts in the samples would make the samples appear older (because the xenocrysts themselves would be old). A K-Ar analysis of impure fractions of the sample, as Austin's were, is meaningless.

Links:

Henke, Kevin R. n.d. Young-earth creationist 'dating' of a Mt. St. Helens dacite: The failure of Austin and Swenson to recognize obviously ancient minerals. http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/mt_st_helens...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

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#82539
Mar 24, 2013
 
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>You have failed to show any evidence that the bible teaches the world is flat.
The Bible doesn't "teach" the world is flat, as in "Yea, verily, I sayeth unto you, the world is flat."

However....

The Bibles flat earth/solid sky dome universe
http://www.goatstar.org/the-bibles-flat-earth...

Excerpts:

>>>>>The Bibles flat earth

In the Bible the earth is a round flat object with ends and which is immovable and set on pillars.

Here God is imagined to draw a circle on the face of the waters to make the earth.

(Prov 8:26-27 NRSV) when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the worlds first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

A circle is of course a flat round object. Some would say that the ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere so they used circle ("chug"), but that is not true. There is a Hebrew word for ball used in the bible ("dur"). A flat round earth was intuitive to these primitive people. If you picture yourself in their place, it would not be too hard to imagine the earth as being round and flat as you turn around to trace the outline of the horizon where the sky seems to meet the earth.

Here God is imagined to sit above the circle of the earth looking down on its inhabitants who are small like grasshoppers.

(Isa 40:22 NRSV) It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Again a circle is a flat two dimensional object and there was a Hebrew word for ball which would have been more appropriate if the author would have been aware of the earths spherical nature.

Here the author of Daniel writes of a dream of Nebuchadnezzar where a tree grows at the "center" of the earth. Assuming that the tree grew on the surface, this is most certainly the center of a flat earth as a spherical earth would have no center on its surface. Also notice that the tree grew so tall its top reached heaven and was visible to the "ends of the earth". So these verses indicate that Nebuchadnezzar and the author of Daniel pictured a flat earth as everyone else did in their time.

continued...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

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#82540
Mar 24, 2013
 
(Dan 4:10-11 NRSV) Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth.

Here it is possible that this gospel author still imagined a flat earth as Jesus is able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain. This would not be possible on a spherical earth.

(Mat 4:8 NRSV) Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;

Here the author of Job imagines that God could take the edges of the earth and shake the wicked out of it.

(Job 38:13 NIV) that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?

Here the author of Job is saying something is longer than the earth. A flat earth with ends could be compared for length, but longer has no meaning for a spherical earth.

(Job 11:9 NRSV) Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

One end of a flat earth to the other end of a flat earth is mentioned here (a spherical earth had no ends).

(Deu 13:7 NRSV) any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other,

Again, some would say that the ends of the earth is not be taken literally and that would be true today, but the phrase is leftover from when people used to really believe the earth had ends, which was the case for the ancient Hebrews and most everyone else at that time.

Here is a few more verses that mention the ends of the earth

Deu 28:49, Deu 28:64, Deu 33:17, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 1:7, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Psa 2:8, Psa 19:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 33:13, Psa 33:14, Psa 48:10, Psa 59:13, Psa 61:2, Psa 65:5, Psa 72:8

>>>>The Bibles immovable earth set on pillars

Here the earth is imagined to be set on pillars and immovable.

(Psa 93:1 NRSV) He has established the world; it shall never be moved;

(1 Sam 2:8 NRSV) For the pillars of the earth are the Lords, and on them he has set the world.

(Isa 24:18 NRSV) or the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

continued....
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

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#82541
Mar 24, 2013
 
>>>>>The Bibles solid sky dome

Here God is imagined to create a solid sky dome that separates the waters into two parts.
One would become the oceans and the other would remain above the solid sky dome to provide an explanation of where water came from to cause clouds and rain in the absence of the knowledge of evaporation.

(Gen 1:6-7 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.

Here is another verse which mentions the water above the sky dome.

(Psa 148:4 NRSV) Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!

Here celestial bodies are attached to this sky dome.

(Gen 1:14-17 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. God made the two great lightsthe greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the nightand the stars.
God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,

Notice that the lights, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are set inside the sky dome.

Here it is mentioned that the sky dome is hard.

(Job 37:18 NRSV) Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

(Prov 8:28 NRSV) when he made firm the skies above,

God is imagined to walk on top of the sky dome.

(Job 22:14 NRSV) Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.

The sky is imagined as something that has to open to let things pass through it

Here notice that heaven has to be "opened" for things to pass through, things in and above heaven to be seen, and for rainwater to come through. One would think that would not be necessary unless the sky was imagined to be solid. Some would say that this was not be taken literally, but the sky was imagined to be solid in most cultures for over 1500 years after the last books of the bible were written.

(John 1:51 NRSV) And he said to him, "Very truly, I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

(Acts 10:11 NRSV) He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners.

(Acts 7:56 NRSV) "Look," he said, "I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

(Mat 3:16-17 NRSV) And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."

(2 Chr 6:26 NRSV) "When heaven (same Hebrew word as sky) is shut up and there is no rain because

(Psa 78:23 NRSV) Yet he commanded the skies above, and opened the doors of heaven (same Hebrew word as sky);

(Mal 3:10 NRSV) Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in my house, and thus put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts; see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you an overflowing blessing.(talking about rain for crops)

(Rev 11:6 NRSV) They have authority to shut the sky, so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying,

(Gen 7:11-12 NRSV) In the six hundredth year of Noahs life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

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