Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Read more

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#82534 Mar 24, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>this is what happens when you try to talk about subjects you do not understand...
who="macumazahn" quoted text>Oboy.

You think solidified magma is somehow "new"?

Here, just for exercise: ever wonder how old the friggin' magma was before it surfaced?

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#82535 Mar 24, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>*sigh*

No, ya halfwit.

Of course it can be dated.

And, of course, creationist nutters like your Steve Austin (is that REALLY his name?) can mismeasure and misinterpret and force-to-fit all they want.

The point remains - if they were doing it right, it'd be the accepted norm, and they'd be in the forefront of geological research.
Instead of out on the loonie fringe.
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Oboy.

You think solidified magma is somehow "new"?

Here, just for exercise: ever wonder how old the friggin' magma was before it surfaced?
Why this then?

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#82536 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Just going off an atheist rules for rock dating.
Again, the science of dating racks never claimed to be infallible while your bible clearly did...in fact , the entire [premise is that the god that inpired and divinely guided the bible was infallible...

seems to be myth...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82537 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"I asked for a verse that clearly describes a spherical Earth"
Why? Would it really matter to you?
You were the one that jumped into a conversation. If you run away I don't really care.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82538 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you really think a bunch of Christians ran in and took over these
Labs and did the testing themselves?
These test were done by Scientist the same people that test dating and use these machines everyday. It's just that it take some groups to stand up and hold science to a level of reliability so fools like
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013_1...

Creationist Claim CD013.1:

The conventional K-Ar dating method was applied to the 1986 dacite flow from the new lava dome at Mount St. Helens, Washington. The whole-rock age was 0.35 +/- 0.05 million years (Mya). Ages for component minerals varied from 0.34 +/- 0.06 Mya to 2.8 +/- 0.6 Mya. These ages show that the K-Ar method is invalid.

Response:

1. Austin sent his samples to a laboratory that clearly states that their equipment cannot accurately measure samples less than two million years old. All of the measured ages but one fall well under the stated limit of accuracy, so the method applied to them is obviously inapplicable. Since Austin misused the measurement technique, he should expect inaccurate results, but the fault is his, not the technique's. Experimental error is a possible explanation for the older date.

2. Austin's samples were not homogeneous, as he himself admitted. Any xenocrysts in the samples would make the samples appear older (because the xenocrysts themselves would be old). A K-Ar analysis of impure fractions of the sample, as Austin's were, is meaningless.

Links:

Henke, Kevin R. n.d. Young-earth creationist 'dating' of a Mt. St. Helens dacite: The failure of Austin and Swenson to recognize obviously ancient minerals. http://noanswersingenesis.org.au/mt_st_helens...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82539 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>You have failed to show any evidence that the bible teaches the world is flat.
The Bible doesn't "teach" the world is flat, as in "Yea, verily, I sayeth unto you, the world is flat."

However....

The Bible’s flat earth/solid sky dome universe
http://www.goatstar.org/the-bibles-flat-earth...

Excerpts:

>>>>>The Bible’s flat earth

In the Bible the earth is a round flat object with ends and which is immovable and set on pillars.

Here God is imagined to draw a circle on the face of the waters to make the earth.

(Prov 8:26-27 NRSV) when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

A circle is of course a flat round object. Some would say that the ancient Hebrews had no word for sphere so they used circle ("chug"), but that is not true. There is a Hebrew word for ball used in the bible ("dur"). A flat round earth was intuitive to these primitive people. If you picture yourself in their place, it would not be too hard to imagine the earth as being round and flat as you turn around to trace the outline of the horizon where the sky seems to meet the earth.

Here God is imagined to sit above the circle of the earth looking down on it’s inhabitants who are small like grasshoppers.

(Isa 40:22 NRSV) It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Again a circle is a flat two dimensional object and there was a Hebrew word for ball which would have been more appropriate if the author would have been aware of the earth’s spherical nature.

Here the author of Daniel writes of a dream of Nebuchadnezzar where a tree grows at the "center" of the earth. Assuming that the tree grew on the surface, this is most certainly the center of a flat earth as a spherical earth would have no center on it’s surface. Also notice that the tree grew so tall it’s top reached heaven and was visible to the "ends of the earth". So these verses indicate that Nebuchadnezzar and the author of Daniel pictured a flat earth as everyone else did in their time.

continued...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82540 Mar 24, 2013
(Dan 4:10-11 NRSV) Upon my bed this is what I saw; there was a tree at the center of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew great and strong, its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth.

Here it is possible that this gospel author still imagined a flat earth as Jesus is able to see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain. This would not be possible on a spherical earth.

(Mat 4:8 NRSV) Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor;

Here the author of Job imagines that God could take the edges of the earth and shake the wicked out of it.

(Job 38:13 NIV) that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?

Here the author of Job is saying something is longer than the earth. A flat earth with ends could be compared for length, but longer has no meaning for a spherical earth.

(Job 11:9 NRSV) Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

One end of a flat earth to the other end of a flat earth is mentioned here (a spherical earth had no ends).

(Deu 13:7 NRSV) any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other,

Again, some would say that the ends of the earth is not be taken literally and that would be true today, but the phrase is leftover from when people used to really believe the earth had ends, which was the case for the ancient Hebrews and most everyone else at that time.

Here is a few more verses that mention the ends of the earth

Deu 28:49, Deu 28:64, Deu 33:17, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 1:7, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Psa 2:8, Psa 19:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 33:13, Psa 33:14, Psa 48:10, Psa 59:13, Psa 61:2, Psa 65:5, Psa 72:8

>>>>The Bible’s immovable earth set on pillars

Here the earth is imagined to be set on pillars and immovable.

(Psa 93:1 NRSV)… He has established the world; it shall never be moved;

(1 Sam 2:8 NRSV) For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and on them he has set the world.

(Isa 24:18 NRSV) or the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

continued....
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82541 Mar 24, 2013
>>>>>The Bible’s solid sky dome

Here God is imagined to create a solid sky dome that separates the waters into two parts.
One would become the oceans and the other would remain above the solid sky dome to provide an explanation of where water came from to cause clouds and rain in the absence of the knowledge of evaporation.

(Gen 1:6-7 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."

So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.

Here is another verse which mentions the water above the sky dome.

(Psa 148:4 NRSV) Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!

Here celestial bodies are attached to this sky dome.

(Gen 1:14-17 NRSV) And God said, "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth." And it was so. God made the two great lights–the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night–and the stars.
God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth,

Notice that the lights, the Sun, the Moon, and the stars are set inside the sky dome.

Here it is mentioned that the sky dome is hard.

(Job 37:18 NRSV) Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

(Prov 8:28 NRSV) when he made firm the skies above,…

God is imagined to walk on top of the sky dome.

(Job 22:14 NRSV) Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

The sky is imagined as something that has to open to let things pass through it

Here notice that heaven has to be "opened" for things to pass through, things in and above heaven to be seen, and for rainwater to come through. One would think that would not be necessary unless the sky was imagined to be solid. Some would say that this was not be taken literally, but the sky was imagined to be solid in most cultures for over 1500 years after the last books of the bible were written.

(John 1:51 NRSV) And he said to him, "Very truly, I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

(Acts 10:11 NRSV) He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners.

(Acts 7:56 NRSV) "Look," he said, "I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

(Mat 3:16-17 NRSV) And when Jesus had been baptized, just as he came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."

(2 Chr 6:26 NRSV) "When heaven (same Hebrew word as sky) is shut up and there is no rain because…

(Psa 78:23 NRSV) Yet he commanded the skies above, and opened the doors of heaven (same Hebrew word as sky);

(Mal 3:10 NRSV) Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in my house, and thus put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts; see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you an overflowing blessing.(talking about rain for crops)

(Rev 11:6 NRSV) They have authority to shut the sky, so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying,

(Gen 7:11-12 NRSV) In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82542 Mar 24, 2013
>>>>Joshua commands the Sun to stand still in the sky

Here Joshua was imagined to have commanded the Sun and the Moon to stand still over particular geographic locations like a helicopter could be imagined to hover over a particular mountain or valley as if the Sun and the Moon were only a few miles high instead of 93 million (Sun) and 1/4 million (Moon) miles away. To the author the Sun and the Moon were attached to a rotating solid sky dome, just a few miles above his head.

(Josh 10:12-13 NRSV) On the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to the LORD; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon."

And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

>>>>>Jesus probably saw the universe the same way everyone else did in his day

Here it is indicated that Jesus himself pictured the stars as objects that could fall to the earth which would seem reasonable if he pictured the stars as little lights attached to a solid sky dome just a few miles up like everyone else in his day.

Instead, apparently unknown to Jesus, stars are objects typically millions of times larger than the earth and unimaginably distant.

(Mark 13:24-25 NRSV) "But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#82543 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"Why does radiometric dating repeatedly result in very old dates (such as billions of years)? While one explanation is that these dates show the specimens’ true age, another is that one or more of these large assumptions associated with this method of dating is wrong.
Scientists have dated lava rock samples from various active volcanoes with the radiometric method. Because the formation of these rocks has recently been observed, radiometric dating should not give them an age of millions of years.[72] Yet there are many such examples. Consider the following:
Rock which was formed in 1986 from a lava dome at Mount St. Helens volcano was dated by the potassiumargon method as 0.35 ± 0.05 million years old.[73]
Rocks from five recent lava flows at Mount Ngauruhoe in New Zealand were dated using the potassium-argon method, and resulted in dates ranging from <0.27 to 3.5 million years — but one lava flow occurred in 1949, three in 1954, and one in 1975.[74]
Salt Lake Crater on Oahu was determined to be 92–147 million years, 140–680 million years, 930–1,580 million years, 1,230–1,960 million years, 1,290–2,050 million years, and 1,360–1,900 years old, using different radiometric dating methods.[75]
How did 1,000-year-old carbon-dated trees in the Auckland volcanic field of New Zealand get buried under 145,000-465,000 year old potassium-argon-dated lava rock?[76]
One explanation given by scientists for some of these incorrect dates is that excess argon was retained in the rocks when they solidified from a molten state. According to the Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences,“It is common to discard ages which are substantially too high or too low compared with the rest of the group or with other available data such as the geological time scale.... The discrepancies between the rejected and the accepted are arbitrarily attributed to excess or loss of argon.”[77]
But if excess argon can cause exaggerated dates for rocks of known age, then why should this dating method be trusted for rocks of unknown age? "
So tell me Langoliers, what are you trying to say with your essay against radiometric dating??

Are you thinking that the scientists are in cahoots with each other to disprove the Biblical flood and/or creationism?

Do you think there is a conspiracy going on??

Or do you think the scientists are idiots and don't know what they are doing?

Serious questions.

Since: Mar 11

Minnesota's North Coast

#82544 Mar 24, 2013
Wow, Gillette. God doesn't know shit about the universe or Earth he created...

why is that, yathink?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82545 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Just going off an atheist rules for rock dating.
There are no "atheist rules" on rock dating.

You may be trying to apply creatard rules to it, after I showed you how false your creatard rules are.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#82546 Mar 24, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
Wow, Gillette. God doesn't know shit about the universe or Earth he created...
why is that, yathink?
'Cos he's just as ignorant as the goatherding nomads who invented him?

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#82547 Mar 24, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>You were the one that jumped into a conversation. If you run away I don't really care.
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).(By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).

"Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.

His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities. Maury used the Bible as a
2. The Bible described the Hydrologic Cycle:

Revealed in the Bible: Job 36:27-28 The water cycle was not fully understood until about 30 B.C. by a Roman engineer named Marcus Vitruvius. Yet every aspect of the water cycle was fully revealed to mankind in 1600 B.C.! The Bible's description is in perfect harmony with modern science. Eccl 1:6-7; 11:3; Job 26:8; Amos 9:6. Vitruvius was 1600 years too late!

In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).

"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#82548 Mar 24, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>There are no "atheist rules" on rock dating.

You may be trying to apply creatard rules to it, after I showed you how false your creatard rules are.
Billions and billions of years is what atheist need. Faulty rock dating gives you that.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82549 Mar 24, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>'Cos he's just as ignorant as the goatherding nomads who invented him?
Shhh!

That's supposed to be kept secret.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#82550 Mar 24, 2013
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> The universe, its elements and other planetary bodies tells me so. These are never a man or mortal made things, but immortal(s).
Of course you have proof/evidence for your assertions??

This all sounds like supernatural superstitious beliefs from the bronze age.

You understand that magik and the supernatural are disproven don't you??

Have been for centuries.
adif understanding

Lancaster, OH

#82551 Mar 24, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Projection.
I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82552 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).(By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")
Right, no word for "sphere". They did have a word for ball. What shape are balls, with the exception of balls that first appeared in the 19th century?

And if the Earth is a sphere you cannot be "above" it. You can be above a flat circle. This verse in context describes a circle. You are reinterpreting it with the knowledge that the Earth is spherical.
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).
"Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.
So he took inspiration from some vague verse. That is not evidence of oceanic currents.
2. The Bible described the Hydrologic Cycle:
Revealed in the Bible: Job 36:27-28 The water cycle was not fully understood until about 30 B.C. by a Roman engineer named Marcus Vitruvius. Yet every aspect of the water cycle was fully revealed to mankind in 1600 B.C.! The Bible's description is in perfect harmony with modern science. Eccl 1:6-7; 11:3; Job 26:8; Amos 9:6. Vitruvius was 1600 years too late!
In various passages, the Bible describes a hydrologic cycle, the process by which clouds are formed, rain is produced and ground water is replenished. Science made the same discovery in the 1600s, long after the Bible passages were written. Here are the related Bible verses:
"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job 26:8, NIV).
"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job 36:27-28, NIV).
"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).
Actually it didn't. It merely stated the obvious. It did not explain why water rises.

Speaking of which, why do you think that water rises Langy?

You have provided one verse that definitely refers to a flat Earth. Actually two, I almost missed the verse from Job. With a spherical Earth there is no up or down in space. The verses you quote only make sense with a flat Earth where down is always in the same direction.

Care to try again?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82553 Mar 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Billions and billions of years is what atheist need. Faulty rock dating gives you that.
And correct rock dating gives us that. So do astronomy, sedimentology, the rate of evolution recorded in our DNA, and various other sources.

Did you know that you have to go so far as to reject even Newtonian physics if you want to believe in a young earth?

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