Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81366 Mar 17, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
Isaiah 40:22
"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth..."
Circles are flat. Earth isn't flat.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Yes I know. The Bible is "literally" true.

Except when it isn't.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81367 Mar 17, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
If the earth is not the center of the Universe,then where is the center of the Universe?
what constellation does it lie in?
please point it out for me.
The question does not make sense. All points in space are expanding in all directions simultaneously. There is no more single valid "center" of the universe than any other.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81368 Mar 17, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
"Sagittarius is a constellation of the zodiac, the one containing the galactic center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_%28c...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_center
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81369 Mar 17, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
wrong again..."everywhere" does not define a center.
Bingo.

There isn't one.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81370 Mar 17, 2013
Mark wrote:
I have been on a few trips to the canyon and put my hands on the rocks, have you? Done a little science work too. Hiked the pre-cam zone where you have water borne layers with no fossils (the pre-flood earth that Adam walked)
Adam didn't exist. Unless there was already a large population of humans around at the time.
Mark wrote:
and then the "great unconformity" slicing them off and 1000ft+ of of fossil layden horizontally and water deposited Tapeat's sandstone. Then several thousand feet more fossilized layers on up. The base of which is sawed off fractured and upturned granite blocks, it says "the fountains of the great deep burst forth", these original crustal granites are fractured and broken in massive blocks, some turned 90 deg (a fast formed mtn range) that was subsequently and catastrophically eroded off. The perfectly plainier contact zone of the 12+ layers in the canyon are simply water current sorted shales and sandstones and while still unlithified were rapidly eroded out when the post flood dam near Page AZ burst out, all perfectly and logically explained from a flood model. The shores of this emptied lake tell of a lake larger than all teh great lakes combined. The evos tell us the layers were caused by 12 different oceans while the earth's crust played pogo stick for eons. Prob is there is no uniform erosion evidence anywhere between these "oceans". If you have mill of years between these uplifts and recoverings where is the evidence of a uniform eroded surface? There should be trees and ranges and valleys happening in all this time they need but its all perfectly flat mineral! You cant get a piece of paper between the layers!
But you claim you can get intact fossils in them.(shrug)
Mark wrote:
This was all explained in a big way geologically in your home state @ St. Helens. The worlds geologic community had the watch the drama unfold and tear out chapter after chapter of dogma, if they wanted to be honest. Dredges clearing out deposits found Canyon image plainier deposits in these cuts and also a lake/canyon creation and breakout that occured a year after the eruption put the rest together. This did much to explain Grand Canyon formation theory, if you want to face the facts. Makes alot of sense. Turns out you can replicate layer sorting in a lab and create plainier contact layers due to water sorting of the specific gravity of each type of mineral.
Then explain why there's no modern leatherback turtles at the bottom layers of geological strata.

There's also an interesting little bit about the Grand Canyon at 9 minutes in here:



Although the whole thing is worth a watch for insight into the creationist mindset if one has the time.
Mark wrote:
Oh well, eons not required nor do they explain a thing, that's the "Lie". So the bottom line is you can walk around the Canyon with your Bible open and see the same story in the rocks. I have found this to be true everywhere, that's the truth.
Except evidence is irrelevant to Goddidit with magic. So that means you ARE lying by claiming evidence supports it. Because NO universal configuration is impossible for an immortal all-powerful entity that creates universes as a hobby in its spare time.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#81371 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Mocking God? Nay, you misunderstand. Now mocking YOUR PARTICULAR OPINION of what you think God is, that's something COMPLETELY different.
no, he was right...i openly mock the created god of abraham. they did such a poor job of creating him it is worth mocking. the people who believe in such a badly created myth deserve to be mocked also....openly.

perpetuating such cults through your belief and support is defintely mockable....should be a civic duty to mock such things.
ARGUING with IDIOTS

Redding, CA

#81372 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>Circles are flat. Earth isn't flat.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Yes I know. The Bible is "literally" true.

Except when it isn't.
You have a lot to learn. How would a sphere be represented in two dimensions? A circle. Do you know the current number of dimensions the scientific mainstream community accepts?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81373 Mar 17, 2013
ARGUING with IDIOTS wrote:
<quoted text>
You are clueless,
Please tell me what unit of measure is used to detect darkness?
Gravity.

You back again? You're as clueless as you were last time.

Which was very.
Mark

United States

#81374 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Appealing to authorities (without citation) who disagree with you is two logical fallacies in one and also dishonest.
<quoted text>
Geological models accept catastrophic events as a natural part of history, that's not a problem. I can also give you a real geologist who converted from YECism due to the evidence:
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/geologic...
<quoted text>
Except it isn't. Because you're calling it all "flood" rocks. Yet we DO see fossils in order. We DON'T see velociraptors in upper geological column. We DON'T see pre-Cambrian rabbits. We DO see flood rocks. And we see marine rock. And we see desert rock. And we see grass plains. And we see sedimentary rock. A lot of which is just in the grand canyon. NOT formed by a "global flood" which has zero mechanisms, zero evidence and has the unfortunate consequence of wiping out all life on Earth in numerous different ways, Noah included.
Unless you can provide me with scientific evidence that the Ark had a nuclear fusion propulsion system.
<quoted text>
No, the rocks don't lie. But creationists lie all the time. And even admit it on their own websites.
Bub, you are claiming that ALL fields of science are wrong because evidence points to GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC. If that's not dishonest then I don't know what is.
I love those pics that show a petrified tree vertically transecting millions of years of evo strata. They tried that at Yellowstone and then had to change the signs. Not all fields of science are effected, where this has gone wrong is the integration of operational sceince and origin science into a 'cult science' that needs no creator and has it's own group of high preists controlling the data, claiming to have all the answers. The Bible calls it "science falsely so called". Why do you think they have spread the word not to debate anymore? Because of the stuff I write about. It works. The Bible teaches that the world was made out of water with water. With H2O you can make the entire atomic chart, you just need to spin it fast enough. The word "light" in scripture actually means the entire spectrum of energy up to light, so there's your power to spin it and construct elements. After that its intelligence - ID, "and God was hovering over the water's", He was there. It's a beautiful picture of a beautiful creation. Our world now is only an image of what was, hence the poles, deserts and wastelands that don't look to lovely, and the massive graveyards of dead things killed in a catastrophy that wasnt so pretty. It won't stay this way forever, God says he is going to show us His stuff again.

M
traddad

Pittsburgh, PA

#81375 Mar 17, 2013
youtube.com/watch...
Sobriety Considered Senile

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#81376 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
So why did you bring it up when you were talking about 520MY old geological strata yesterday?
And you're sure the formula is accurate in dating fossils? link please
Mark

United States

#81377 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Bingo.
There isn't one.
I saw a pic from Hubble of it, It has a cross in the center of the star, a rugged cross. no joke

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#81378 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Bingo.
There isn't one.
She once again shows her limited thinking. if only she would 'open up her mind to new concepts'...
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81379 Mar 17, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Didn't have any "fundie" profs, sorry. Have you ever noticed why the evo's "say" rocks are dated via the geologic column and not from radiometric data? Thats because they would have to turn the canyon upside down for one model and rightside up for the other. Actually I publically debated that issue with a university dept. head, he blew up and later had to write me an apology as directed by the Uni president, also a geologist.
You do certainly have a lot of anecdotes.
Mark wrote:
Arts aurguement in the letter was "well, everyone believes it's this way". Fact is the fossil evidence simply points to a catastrophic watery disaster. Sure, ocean floor sea life was buried in first, worms, trilobites with their complex eyes then we see alot of nautilus there, discovered by Steve Austin, that has attracted alot of attn, further blowing up the the uniform theory.
Tell us how trilobites have more mass than mammoths? You're not really explaining this "gravitational sorting" very well.
Mark wrote:
How do you trap millions of them in a sediment laden watery enviro, all about the same age and driven by current in the same direction in a "tranquil" ocean? Entire sections of the column are missing in the canyon which should be their holy grail model. How did a trilobite evolve to a nautilus in one layer? No one has lied to me, they have lied to us! Where are the transitions? Patterson at the British Museum admitted to me that no one he new has seen living transitionals in the field, which I confirmed to him in my 25 years running around Alaska. He told me, Mark, "bless you on your quest for truth". He once asked a large group if anyone knew one thing that was true of eveolution theory, it got very quiet and one subject responded, "well, I know that it shouldn't be taught in high school"!
http://www.trilobites.info/origins.htm

Didn't you also say that the pre-Cambrian has "no fossils" because there was "no death"? Setting aside for the moment the pomegranate that Adam and Eve ate must have died.

Not sure how the whole no death thing fits in with the second law of thermodynamics either, but...

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#81380 Mar 17, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
I love those pics that show a petrified tree vertically transecting millions of years of evo strata. They tried that at Yellowstone and then had to change the signs. Not all fields of science are effected, where this has gone wrong is the integration of operational sceince and origin science into a 'cult science' that needs no creator and has it's own group of high preists controlling the data, claiming to have all the answers. The Bible calls it "science falsely so called". Why do you think they have spread the word not to debate anymore? Because of the stuff I write about. It works. The Bible teaches that the world was made out of water with water. With H2O you can make the entire atomic chart, you just need to spin it fast enough. The word "light" in scripture actually means the entire spectrum of energy up to light, so there's your power to spin it and construct elements. After that its intelligence - ID, "and God was hovering over the water's", He was there. It's a beautiful picture of a beautiful creation. Our world now is only an image of what was, hence the poles, deserts and wastelands that don't look to lovely, and the massive graveyards of dead things killed in a catastrophy that wasnt so pretty. It won't stay this way forever, God says he is going to show us His stuff again.
M
you are really out of it, Mark.

all this crap you post is already proven to be bullshit. why do you think intelligent people would actually believe it for a second? you are basically openly lying to us and then you ask for credulity...ain't gonna happen fom that kind of crap.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81381 Mar 17, 2013
d-pants7 wrote:
<quoted text> real morals are instinctive and your other ones will quickly go out the window if it came down to survival.
You have no real morals. It all comes from fear of eternal torment or desire for eternal paradise. And if God commands genocide you will do it happily for you think it righteous. You are incapable of genuine altruism.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#81382 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
evidence that the Ark had a
DNA bank?
Mark

United States

#81383 Mar 17, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually you avoided it yesterday. We pointed out that dark matter has been detected and you said it's wrong cuz Goddidit with magic. In the meantime you were unable to provide an alternative explanation.
<quoted text>
Then how come male leatherback turtles aren't at the bottom?
What I suggested is that the universe is still unraveling from the creation event and there's no need for dark matter, the evo's need to hold it all together for long ages, we don't. I am not God, he says he created it, it looks pretty and works great!

M

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#81384 Mar 17, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
I saw a pic from Hubble of it, It has a cross in the center of the star, a rugged cross. no joke
yes, major joke. you are a joke.

you are a joke of a liar. not even a good one, just a joke of one...

every picture from HST is catalogued. which picture shows the center of the universe?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#81385 Mar 17, 2013
Mark wrote:
It's hard to say, I know when I am getting close when evo's get off topic and start stereotyping, name calling, or both. I was in your camp till I was in my 20's and had the same feelings you have. Thought myself very sceintific, objective and way too intelligent to need a God.
I remember when my older friend from school crashed a floatplane and killed a fam with an infant, I said to myself "there is no god".'How could there be to allow such things to happen' I thought. Then one night flying in the Brooks I got myself in a real jam knew I was packing it in with passengers, Just like Rick did. I looked up and said, if there is a God, I need your help now! Am serious, a voice said to me "Son, you said the right thing"! and I popped out and got 15 gals of gas to boot (was oveer salt water by then). What can I say to that! So I went on a search so here I am. He see's us all, thats all I know.
Bingo. God sees us all and that's all you know. Unfortunately you don't even know if it exists. If you did you would be able to demonstrate it in an objective manner via the scientific method.

Of course all this is irrelevant since evolution makes no theological claims. It would be quite happy if God was the one responsible for abiogenesis. All it needs is for life to be here. Life IS here. Life evolves. Facts. In order to demonstrate otherwise you need to demonstrate that life is in fact NOT here.

Good luck.
Mark wrote:
Evo's should be able to use cell science to support their claims in the area of a biological mechanism for evolution to work. Instead now the researchers are either believers or closet beleivers. When a honest person faces the complexity of a cell and analogies to software, data compression, replication and a lauguage convention, that's the same in all living things, plant or animal one must take a breath. Crick, the co-discoverer of DNA gave up and dissmissed the issue to science fiction where evolution must have occure off planet and brought here by space ships. Now I feel better... Panasperma saved the day...
M
Except your problem is the analogy itself. DNA is not a language. It is not a code. It is also a naturally occurring self-replicating biological organism, unlike anything in your analogies. Your other problem is that the theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. Since DNA *is* actually here, it can, and does evolve.

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