Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#80290 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
"Which is why creationists now avoid science" ... makes me laugh
Yes, creation "science" is hilarious.

I do have to agree with you on that. That is one of the reasons they are very often called creatards. They definitely do not seem very Christian, they constantly lie.

You seem to be a Christian. I do have a serious question for you:

Is it okay to lie for Jesus?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80291 Mar 10, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
well if you claim to know the bible so much, then you would know that you don't enter into heaven through intellectual knowledge, but through faith.
Jesus referred to the children as the greatest in heaven...not the intellectuals.
...and I believe this is why secretly, that science rejects it so much.
Science values intellectual knowledge above all. God values purity of heart, spirit and faith.
God doesn't care what your IQ is...only whats in your heart.
God has no need for intellectuals...why would he? His knowledge is infinite.
Ah, the continued fundamentalist argument that ignorance is a virtue.

But since you're dishonest I'd hardly call you "pure of heart".

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#80292 Mar 10, 2013
Khatru wrote:
<quoted text>
Which world? There are many worlds.
Only one earth.
Do you see what I mean? It's useless to even argue something that is meant to be figurative and attacking it to mean it literally.

Have you gone 'around' the world?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80293 Mar 10, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes it is. Science says that the universe has no center, which would imply that the center is relative to the observer. meaning that if your standing on the earth, it is in fact moving away from the earth as it's center.
Unless you're standing on the moon.

Oh by the way, our galaxy will crash into Andromeda.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Bay of Fundy

#80294 Mar 10, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
No that is not it.
Jesus predicted the wrong amount of time that he would be dead.
That is a pretty big fail on his part if he was God. Or even the son of God.
Very Big Fail. But then there may not have even been a Jesus. He wasn't needed to redeem mankind from 'Original Sin' And he supposedly did tell his followers that he would be back before they died, and he never made it.

I see him just fading away into the sunset. Another failing of the Christian Church to prove itself.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80295 Mar 10, 2013
superwilly wrote:
<quoted text>
Watch the phraseology "invisible Jewmagic". That phraseology is VERY reminiscent of nazi ideology. The phrase is very antisemetic.
I'd say it's far less anti-semitic than the diatribe often showed to atheists on here. It's also worth keeping in mind that I only make my arguments from a scientific context, I'm not arguing against creationism due to any ill will towards the Jews, Christians, Muslims or whatever. When I use the phrase "invisible Jewmagic" and the like I am doing so in a very literal sense. In that some people on here are claiming science is wrong because things were done totally differently all due to the actions of an invisible magical Jewish wizard. And I can even use Bible quotes to back that up. Is God invisible? Yes. Is God magic? Yes. Is God a wizard? Yes. Is it scientifically feasable? No.

Hence I am only talking about its scientific veracity, nothing more.

Although feel free to go for more ad hom if you like. After all you already tried that with the Darwin on race thing.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#80296 Mar 10, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
Very Big Fail. But then there may not have even been a Jesus. He wasn't needed to redeem mankind from 'Original Sin' And he supposedly did tell his followers that he would be back before they died, and he never made it.
I see him just fading away into the sunset. Another failing of the Christian Church to prove itself.
Strange, no Christians challenged me on this observation. Perhaps they already knew of this terrible fail. The verse is Matthew 12:40 Where Jesus says that just as Jonah spent three days in the belly of a fish he would spend three days and three nights in the bowels of the Earth. He was in the tomb for only one day and two nights, half the amount of time that he predicted.

http://bible.cc/matthew/12-40.htm

"
New International Version (©1984)
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

International Standard Version (©2012)
because just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea creature for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

And many more.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80297 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing at the “four corners” of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving. Bible writers used the “language of appearance,” just as people always have. Without it, the intended message would be awkward at best and probably not understood clearly
Thanks for pointing out that the Bible is not to be taken literally.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80298 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
And where exactly is the top of the world eh?
Front of the Titanic?

Not any more though I guess.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80299 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
<quoted text>
well .. you think you're a god and know all the answers .. you answer it
And when did he claim supreme knowledge?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#80300 Mar 10, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, the continued fundamentalist argument that ignorance is a virtue.
But since you're dishonest I'd hardly call you "pure of heart".
Why do you attack someone's personal philosophy? Do you do the same with Buddhism, Taoism, or Pantheism? Whether it was Buddha or Jesus who reached this higher consciousness or nirvana, it's a model for those who want to attain a higher form of awareness of themselves and their world. Do you use the scientific method in every aspect of your life? If a man knocks on your door with a gun, do you think in scientific terms and think rationally or do you instinctively grab your own gun?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80301 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
<quoted text>
I couldn't care less about evolution .. micro or macro ...
Yes, I know. That's because creationists are intellectually dishonest.
His-truth wrote:
it's in your corner to debunk design .. are you willing to do that ??
Actually it's in your corner to demonstrate IDC. I don't dispute design as such as we see humans do it every day. And a few other animals too. But as for humans being "designed" by some otherwise unknown intelligence, it has not yet been scientifically demonstrated.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Bay of Fundy

#80302 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
......... wait for it
I'm waiting.....
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80303 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
"Which is why creationists now avoid science" ... makes me laugh
Me too. That's why they still can't get their anti-science claims taken seriously by the scientific community even 150 years later.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#80304 Mar 10, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
You totally missed the point of his post.
Let me ask you a question, perhaps that will help.
Why does the average atheist know more about the Bible than the average Christian?
Because the average atheist has a agenda to disprove the bible.
So the atheist does an in depth search looking for fault...and finds it.

Matthew > Chapter 18 > Verse 19

Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.

Luke > Chapter 6 > Verse 28

Bless them that curse you...

See... God even help those who don't believe in him.

God is true to his word.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#80305 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
No it doesn't prevent it at all. It 'repairs' it. Mistakes in DNA replication leads to mutation and influences the mutation frequencies. So when you say there are about 175 mutations per individual in one generation, what is the probability of successful mutations in a species given the function of DNA repair system to counteract it. And in this process, how do you calculate the mutation rate for an evolution above the level of species. Because when a species evolves even in gradation which could later lead to macroevolution, there is also the chance of apoptosis to occur on the cell level and would not survive as a whole new species or mutant organism. Unless you can demonstrate natural selection in a mutant organism.
Thanks for dodging this.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80306 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
No it doesn't prevent it at all. It 'repairs' it. Mistakes in DNA replication leads to mutation and influences the mutation frequencies. So when you say there are about 175 mutations per individual in one generation, what is the probability of successful mutations in a species given the function of DNA repair system to counteract it.
33.33333333%

Mutations can be successful, neutral, or detrimental.

We're all born with over 100 mutations that neither of our parents have. Even creationists accept this. If you claim you're different then you were either genetically engineered or simply not human.
Cybele wrote:
And in this process, how do you calculate the mutation rate for an evolution above the level of species. Because when a species evolves even in gradation which could later lead to macroevolution, there is also the chance of apoptosis to occur on the cell level and would not survive as a whole new species or mutant organism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis

"Apoptosis (pron.:/&#716;æp&#601; &#712;to&#650;s&#6 18;s/ also pron.:/&#716;e&#618;p &#596;&#720;p&#712 ;to&#650;s&#618;s/)[2] [3] is the process of programmed cell death (PCD) that may occur in multicellular organisms.[4] Biochemical events lead to characteristic cell changes (morphology) and death. These changes include blebbing, cell shrinkage, nuclear fragmentation, chromatin condensation, and chromosomal DNA fragmentation.(See also apoptotic DNA fragmentation.)

In contrast to necrosis, which is a form of traumatic cell death that results from acute cellular injury, apoptosis, in general, confers advantages during an organism's life cycle. For example, the differentiation of fingers and toes in a developing human embryo occurs because cells between the fingers apoptose; the result is that the digits are separate. Unlike necrosis, apoptosis produces cell fragments called apoptotic bodies that phagocytic cells are able to engulf and quickly remove before the contents of the cell can spill out onto surrounding cells and cause damage."

So I don't think you're referring to the correct thing here.
Cybele wrote:
Unless you can demonstrate natural selection in a mutant organism.
First of all, we're ALL "mutants". Second you don't demonstrate natural selection in an individual. It is demonstrated in populations. Your statement indicates a lack of understanding of the terminology involved.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Bay of Fundy

#80307 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
well .. thewordofme .. I'm weary of waiting
allow me to give this a shot ..........
NO MAN IS TO KNOW THE DAY OR THE HOUR
Jesus spoke these words to his disciples .. they were not to know the day or the hour .. just as Daniel tried to understand the prophecy God had spoken through him .. Daniel was told to seal up the book ( Daniel 12:09 ).. it was not for him or his generation to know .. but reserved for the generation that was to experience the time of the end
Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened .. and the moon will not give its light .. the stars will fall from the sky .. and the heavenly bodies will be shaken .... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky .. and all the nations of the earth will mourn .. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky .. with power and great glory ... And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call .. and they will gather his elect from the four winds .. from one end of the heavens to the other ... Now learn this lesson from the fig-tree .. As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out .. you know that summer is near ... Even so .. when you see all these things ( everything prior in chapter 24 ).. you know that it is near ( very close ).. right at the door ... I ( Jesus ) tell you the truth ... this generation ( the generation that sees these signs ) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened ... Heaven and earth will pass away .. but my words will never pass away ..... Jesus .. Matthew 24:29-35
( now .. back to those Jesus is currently speaking to )
No-one knows about that day or hour .. not even the angels in heaven .. nor the Son .. but only the Father .... As it was in the days of Noah ( absolute moral dysfunction and breakdown ).. so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man ... For in the days before the flood .. people were eating and drinking .. marrying and giving in marriage ( business as usual ).. up to the day Noah entered the ark ... and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came ( suddenly ) and took ( swept ) them all away .. That is how it will be ( speaking about the future generation witnessing the signs ) at the coming of the Son of Man ..... Jesus Matthew 24:36-39
But.....he keep telling people...I'll be back before YOU die. Christians all over the place back then keep waiting, and waiting, and waiting. Finally the church fathers had to make up some excuses for him.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#80308 Mar 10, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Because the average atheist has a agenda to disprove the bible.
So the atheist does an in depth search looking for fault...and finds it.
Matthew > Chapter 18 > Verse 19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.
Luke > Chapter 6 > Verse 28
Bless them that curse you...
See... God even help those who don't believe in him.
God is true to his word.
Wrong, try again.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80309 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you attack someone's personal philosophy?
Because her personal philosophy is willfull ignorance.
Cybele wrote:
Do you do the same with Buddhism, Taoism, or Pantheism? Whether it was Buddha or Jesus who reached this higher consciousness or nirvana, it's a model for those who want to attain a higher form of awareness of themselves and their world.
Which is the COMPLETE AND TOTAL OPPOSITE of what she wants.

She just said so.
Cybele wrote:
Do you use the scientific method in every aspect of your life? If a man knocks on your door with a gun, do you think in scientific terms and think rationally or do you instinctively grab your own gun?
I'll let you know if it happens. Unlikely though.

At least unless anyone here finally gets that pished off with me.

:-p

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