Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Patagonia

#80250 Mar 10, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, you know what really can drive them nuts?
Let me give this a shot:
Does any Christian out there know the prediction made by Jesus that was falsified before the end of the Gospels?
Here is a hint, it was a really HUGE error.
That he would come back (to life and to them) before they died.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#80251 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
lol. nobody uses that term colloquially
_I_ do!

Laffin.

“the end-times is now”

Level 2

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#80252 Mar 10, 2013
That he would come back (to life and to them) before they died ?????

“the end-times is now”

Level 2

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#80253 Mar 10, 2013
. . . . wait for it
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80254 Mar 10, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>They are not genetically incomparable. That's the point of calling it a red hearing. Dogs are claimed to be a ring species and it is often cited the problems of a great dane mating with a Chihuahuas. The problem is, this is entirely possible, the breed of chuiuaua gets up to 40lbs but what we commonly see is the toy varieties that weight less then 9lbs and often less then 2 lbs because of fashion (9lbs was a limit placed by one of the major shows for showing the dogs). Chihuahuas were originally bread to hunt deer by the Aztecs. Almost every other ring species out there has these artificial limits as their reasonings.
Dogs are a subspecies of wolf. Great Danes and Chihuahuas are likely genetically compatible, but size prevents them from mating in the wild. So they need artificial help to breed or an insane amount of luck or determination. However where breeding problems ARE observed are between things like wolves (or dogs), jackals and dingos. It's between these ring species is more appropriate to apply.
adif understanding wrote:
Which ones are you talking about? All instances of speciation I am aware of are capable of this. Even the new species of orchids, when left to their own device returned to the previous species within couple generations but even they were not genetically incapable of pollinating other orchids.
See above.
adif understanding wrote:
IT most certainly is not irrelevant because change is not all evolution predicts. It predicts new species from that change and here we have observed the same species which would be misidentified as separate species had we not known of them in reality.
For example Neanderthal, which are a subspecies of humans. Yet still distinct enough both anatomically and genetically to be recognisably different. However they were still close enough to be able to breed in humans, and we know that anyone with European lineage also has Neanderthal DNA, while people whose lineage remained in Africa did not.

“the end-times is now”

Level 2

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#80255 Mar 10, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote: Yes, you know what really can drive them nuts?.. Let me give this a shot: Does any Christian out there know the prediction made by Jesus that was falsified before the end of the Gospels?.. Here is a hint, it was a really HUGE error.
thewordofme wrote: That he would come back (to life and to them) before they die


......... wait for it
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80256 Mar 10, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>Sigh... First, the only thing that genetically separates the common breed Chihuahua and it's ancestor of 40 lbs is the size requirements placed on it by breeding clubs. Outside of that, they are exactly the same dogs. As for the incompatibility, it's not about the the thingy doesn't fit," although the mechanics of it might be interesting to watch for a laugh or two, it is about the carrying the little to birth. There is nothing genetically stopping them from interbreeding outside of the physical abilities of a Chihuahua or pups to survive the process to birth which is only in place because of artificial conditions placed on them by humans. Now, to illustrate how silly this claim of natural process is, a mexican woman who was born barren and unable to have children and a white male who was born sterile suffering the same, would not be considered separate species because they lack the ability to naturally reproduce.
That is not speciation, nor does evolution claim it to be.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Patagonia

#80257 Mar 10, 2013
Carchar king wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't come up with you're fancy scientific language, God is proven, scientists go with evolution more but God has been proven to exist.
Really.....really.....God is proven?

WOW.....I haven't heard anything about that.

Where can I go to see this proof??

“the end-times is now”

Level 2

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#80258 Mar 10, 2013
well .. thewordofme .. I'm weary of waiting

allow me to give this a shot ..........

NO MAN IS TO KNOW THE DAY OR THE HOUR

Jesus spoke these words to his disciples .. they were not to know the day or the hour .. just as Daniel tried to understand the prophecy God had spoken through him .. Daniel was told to seal up the book ( Daniel 12:09 ).. it was not for him or his generation to know .. but reserved for the generation that was to experience the time of the end

Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened .. and the moon will not give its light .. the stars will fall from the sky .. and the heavenly bodies will be shaken .... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky .. and all the nations of the earth will mourn .. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky .. with power and great glory ... And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call .. and they will gather his elect from the four winds .. from one end of the heavens to the other ... Now learn this lesson from the fig-tree .. As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out .. you know that summer is near ... Even so .. when you see all these things ( everything prior in chapter 24 ).. you know that it is near ( very close ).. right at the door ... I ( Jesus ) tell you the truth ... this generation ( the generation that sees these signs ) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened ... Heaven and earth will pass away .. but my words will never pass away ..... Jesus .. Matthew 24:29-35

( now .. back to those Jesus is currently speaking to )

No-one knows about that day or hour .. not even the angels in heaven .. nor the Son .. but only the Father .... As it was in the days of Noah ( absolute moral dysfunction and breakdown ).. so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man ... For in the days before the flood .. people were eating and drinking .. marrying and giving in marriage ( business as usual ).. up to the day Noah entered the ark ... and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came ( suddenly ) and took ( swept ) them all away .. That is how it will be ( speaking about the future generation witnessing the signs ) at the coming of the Son of Man ..... Jesus Matthew 24:36-39
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80259 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
A 4-5 sentence paragraph is all you can write about DNA and genetics. How impressive.
In regards to mutation and DNA repair system, you still didn't answer my question. Nada.
I did that yesterday. DNA repair does not prevent all mutations in a new offspring. Just the same way that it does not prevent all mutations when an organism takes damage (eg sunburn or cancer).

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Patagonia

#80261 Mar 10, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>NO, there is no word for sphere in the language at the time of the bible's writing. This is simply a fact. You can look it up, the original word is &#1495;&#1493;&#14 68;&#1490; or transliterated as chuwg which according to strong's concordance carries a meaning of 1) circle, circuit, compass 2)(BDB) vault (of the heavens) and commonly expanded to sphere in modern times.
I'm not entirely sure why you love it when things you think happen simply do not. Perhpas if you would stop leading from ignorance and actually spend a bit of time understanding what you are talking about, you wouldn't look so foolish.
Earth is shaped like a Matzo ball.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Patagonia

#80262 Mar 10, 2013
Wait.....did they even have Matzo balls back then???

:-)
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80263 Mar 10, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>What creation fantasy? and what was debunked lol.
As I said, this discussion is completely out of your league. You have no clue what is being said and are reverting to somehow I'm pushing religion or some stupid inane banter because you lack the knowledge and skills to participate. Like I said before, go sit in the corner with the creationist or do you want a special place for morons?
Oh, and I love how you make crap up. The bible does not say the earth is flat at all. It also says nothing about the sun revolving around it. That was dogmatic declarations by the church who is BTW, the father of science and study as we conceive it today. But hey, show some verses where it says the earth is flat, and don't point to metaphors about the ends of the earth or 4 corners because those are still in use today by people who know and understand the world of spherical. While you are at it, list some verses where it says the sun revolves around the earth.
Stop being and idiot.
The Bible mentions both the sun and the moon stopping in the sky for the length of a day (as opposed to the Earth). And there are some flat-Earth passages too:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Of course this is when the "literal Word of God" all of a sudden becomes metaphor.

Ain't no such thing as a Biblical literalist.

“the end-times is now”

Level 2

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#80264 Mar 10, 2013
you should never view the obvious through the lens of the obscure . . . always view the obscure through the lens of the obvious

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Patagonia

#80265 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
1. The Bible said the earth is round and is suspended in space:
The earth is round!
You may be surprised to learn that the Bible revealed that the earth is round. Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6. Today, we chuckle at the people of the fifteenth century who feared sailing because they thought they would fall over the edge of the flat earth. Yet the Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. 2500 years before man discovered it for himself!
In various verses, the Bible says the earth is round and hangs in space. It took a long time for science to catch up and reach the same conclusions. Copernicus made the discovery in 1475. But the Bible always knew. Here are two related Bible verses that were written more than 2500 years ago, and more than 1000 years before Copernicus:
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).(By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).
"Paths of the sea" Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is considered the father of oceanography. He was bed-ridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea" in Psalms 8:8. Upon his recovery, Maury took God at his word and went looking for these paths. We are indebted to his discovery of the warm and cold continental currents.
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/ScientificB...
So what exactly do you mean by flat?
But, doesn't He set the earth on a firm foundation also??

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Patagonia

#80266 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
which bible verse are you referring to that points to a round flat earth?
It's round like a Matzo ball
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#80267 Mar 10, 2013
Cybele wrote:
If you read his statement he said
"Yet creationists tend not to believe that the Earth is flat" lol
Maybe a typo. But we all know it's a lie. There's not one creationist here that claims the Earth is flat or that is in a geocentric universe. He's digging into the past ape civilization and no one here is talking about a flat earth. In fact many creationists here talk about the laws of physics, scientific theories, quotes Einstein and other scientists, refutes evolution with real science, but they refuse to acknowledge that fact.
There are no facts creationists have to refuse. They have not debunked evolution, and the mere fact they are creationists indicates a double-standard where they can NEVER debunk evolution even if they tried.

For even IF evolution was false, their position is Godmagic. We could then also invoke magic and it would be just as valid.

But as it is, not one single creationist (or anyone else) on the planet has been able to debunk evolution yet.

That is WHY it is accepted as the main-staple of biology today by the scientific community all over the world. It's not all because of some evil world-wide atheist conspiracy.
Cybele wrote:
I don't know why he loves saying creationists think the Earth is flat. Mathematicians such as Eratosthene estimated the size of the Earth. The ancient Greeks tried to measure the circumference of the earth, then later determined the diameter. The Egyptians built the pyramids that coincided with the distances of Earth to the Sun and Orion, and measurements of the Earth. Many of the ancient civilizations learned astronomy and scientists today are still baffled about how they did it without the use of technology we have today.
No, actually the Egyptians and Greeks figured it out with math. And they were pretty darn close.
Cybele wrote:
So the only person saying the Earth is flat is the evolutionists using it as an ad hominem.
Actually it's not ad hom at all. In fact it's a very good point (setting aside for the moment that there is such a thing as the Flat Earth society, we've never seen one of those guys here to my knowledge).

And the reason being is that the fundies come here with the claim that the Bible is true because the Bible says so. So we, quite rightfully point out that it is in error and NOT inerrant as they claim. One of those errors being the conflicting accounts of the shape of the Earth. And indeed scholars agree that some of the ancients back in the day did believe the Earth is flat. Not very surprising for a bunch of ancient superstitious peoples who didn't know very much and didn't get very far out of the Middle East.

Now if anyone wants to say that the Bible was talking in parable, metaphor and the like, that's fine. But then that means it's not the reliable historical record that many fundies claim it to be. Some bits, yes. Some bits, no. Other bits undeterminable. Especially the magic bits.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#80269 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
<quoted text>
well .. you think you're a god and know all the answers .. you answer it
No, the burden of proof is upon you. I am simply showing you that there are errors in the Bible. And that the writers of the Bible in all probability did not know that the world is a sphere.

Why do deniers always try to shift the burden of proof?

Oh, yeah, because they don't have any.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#80270 Mar 10, 2013
His-truth wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
......... wait for it
No that is not it.

Jesus predicted the wrong amount of time that he would be dead.

That is a pretty big fail on his part if he was God. Or even the son of God.

“the end-times is now”

Level 2

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#80271 Mar 10, 2013
The Dude wrote:
There are no facts creationists have to refuse. They have not debunked evolution
I couldn't care less about evolution .. micro or macro ... it's in your corner to debunk design .. are you willing to do that ??

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