Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74343
Feb 6, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Only an idiot who does not understand scientific evidence would make that claim.
So are you an idiot or do you want to learn how fossils support the theory of evolution?
And once again, I asked you what you believed and why. Are you ashamed of what you believe?
Not a claim, it's a refutation of your claim, that remains unsupported.

No, you need to ask questions. You need to read the source material with an unbiased mind, if you can, and see for yourself how fossils don't do a damned thing for your anti-science cause.

I believe in science. Therefore, I cannot believe in evolution.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74344
Feb 6, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't have to provide evidence of enough mutations for evolution. Talk to a geneticist for that. Since there are on average at least 75 mutations per person per generation I don't see why number of mutations is a problem. Do you?
Yes you do. If you assert that evolution is correct, then show us the evidence.

Are you trying pass the buck?

Exactly. 75 mutations per person (a number that changes radically over time.)

Which is not even an iota of what is needed to effect change. You would need many THOUSANDS of mutations to get the whopping %1 of effective mutations of the total sum, to even BEGIN to effect change.

If you don't see how that is a problem, then you sink yourself thoroughly in a very deep and dark cesspool of total ignorance.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74345
Feb 6, 2013
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Sadly you are right.
I am no longer comfortable identifying with the Republican Party. They have left all sensible limited government Republicans behind.
Mm, one thing we might agree on at long last.

So, you favor limited government?

Shocking, for an atheist. At least that means there is hope for you being a freethinker.:)

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74346
Feb 6, 2013
 

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thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
Provide evidence for what?
All you have to do is follow the creation/atheist argument and you know this stuff.
For 150+ years creationists have been predicting the fall of evolution....never happened, never will.
Common knowledge that all (real) science organizations support evolution.
Show me one who doesn't.
The organizations that groups like AiG, CRI, Discovery Institute, etc. don't count as they are religious funded establishments
I already refuted this, and told you that Christians, not atheists, advanced the theory of evolution.

No one has tried to denounce it until it was too late, and it was too entrenched, and too politically charged to be discarded as it would have under normal scientific scrutiny.

I don't even know who those organizations are. My conclusions about evolution based on its own principles is not based on any outside evidence. It is self-evident.

What is very interesting is how so many humans believe in such things without evidence, and convince themselves that it is valid to the point of total insanity. That must be a study unto itself, and one that will baffle many generations to come.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74347
Feb 6, 2013
 
Blablabla
I see we are going nowhere fast then:

YY wrote:
The entire theory is anti-science. It has become so institutionalized, and the community so desperate to maintain the fallacy, that is is not wasting a staggering amount of energy, time, and money that could be better spent solving other serious world problems.

end quote

Another claim that needs to be validated.

So some people notice a pattern, observe, test, write it down, and try to explain what they observed. And way earlier then the 19th century.
Fine, no worries, tons of books are published every year that are actually total trash and just to entertain.
This theory however offers insights in medical conditions and cures and helps producing better harvests and better cattle a.s.o.

And now it totally eludes me as to where the waist is. Vague statement, populistic, stating everything and nothing...and oh yeah let's safe the word.

I.o.w. i'm waisting my time here and have so much more important things to do, but you people have taken the money i want and are keeping me from my saviour activities.

That actually sounds really pathetic.
Oh no!...another messiah complex.

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#74348
Feb 6, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Not a claim, it's a refutation of your claim, that remains unsupported.
No, you need to ask questions. You need to read the source material with an unbiased mind, if you can, and see for yourself how fossils don't do a damned thing for your anti-science cause.
I believe in science. Therefore, I cannot believe in evolution.
You don't even know what the scientific method is, much less what constitutes scientific evidence.

So are you going to continue to bray like an uneducated donkey or do you actually want to learn something? It might be too late to learn tonight, but I will try to answer any questions given to me.

Once again, I am willing to show that evolution is a scientific belief. It is supported by scientific evidence. And no one has written any other scientific explanation.

These are all facts that even honest creationists will admit.

So, do you want to be an embarrassment to your kids for the rest of your life? I guarantee you that when they become adults they will be laughing at you over this, or do you want to learn?

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74349
Feb 6, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
I feel like educating people tonight.
Science only, no propaganda.
Yahoo, how old do you think the Solar System and the Earth are?
Last time I checked, 15 billion for the universe, 5 billion for earth, more or less.

Why?

I suppose you think that is evidence for evolution, if life has been on the earth for about 3 to 4 billion years?

No, it's not. The model doesn't work. The model is so poor a theory that it would be better to speculate that earth was been the plaything of alien cultures landing all sorts of creatures on the planet for all this time.

I'll take Ancient Aliens and David Brin style Galatics any day.

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#74350
Feb 7, 2013
 

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Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes you do. If you assert that evolution is correct, then show us the evidence.
Are you trying pass the buck?
Exactly. 75 mutations per person (a number that changes radically over time.)
Which is not even an iota of what is needed to effect change. You would need many THOUSANDS of mutations to get the whopping %1 of effective mutations of the total sum, to even BEGIN to effect change.
If you don't see how that is a problem, then you sink yourself thoroughly in a very deep and dark cesspool of total ignorance.
What? That is more than enough mutations for man to evolve from the ancestor that we shared with chimps.

Alright this is very oversimplified but it will get the point across.

Now, we know that the average human population was much less on average than it is now. So let's say a reasonable human population as it evolved was 100,000 individuals, on average. Sometimes more and sometimes less. A generation on average, especially in olden days was less than 20 years. So, and I am doing this as a favor to you to lessen my numbers lets say 25 years per generation, even though that is much too high. The human separation from bonobos and chimps probably occurred about 7 million years ago, but let's call it 6 million. Again, I am limiting my time for evolution that you said we did not have enough time for the observed genetic differences between man and chimp. Lastly when Chimp and human DNA is compared there is less than a 2% difference. So again, I am going to make the difference greater and round up to 2%.

Now let's crunch some numbers. 100,000 people times 6,000,000 years divided by 25 years per generation times 75 mutations per generation give us a pool of 1.8 trillion mutations for the gene pool.

So how much was the difference between humans and chimpanzees. Ah yes, 2%. And since we have about 30,000 genes that would be a difference of 600 genes.

Now not all of the changes form the shared ancestor to human and chimp were single changes. Quite a few of them could be changes of more than one gene, but not too many, otherwise our differences would be greater. Still I am feeling very generous tonight and will doubt the number of changes needed. So we will say that 1,200 genes had to change. Okay let's see. 1,200 changes divided 1.8 trillion changes in the gene pool. That means only one out of fifteen million mutations that occurred would have to be in the right direction for people to have evolved.

And I was being generous. The mutations are in the gene pool. And don't give me that nonsense of two people having to meet up, that is not how genetics work. Let's say we have a population of brown eyed people and one person develops the mutation for blue eyes. Do you think that mutation will disappear? I can guarantee you that it won't. And that is for a recessive gene. A dominant gene gets into the gene pool even quicker.

Evolution is more than possible if you play the numbers game.

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#74351
Feb 7, 2013
 

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Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Not at all.
I was an atheist when I began to be skeptical of evolution. I am also a major science fiction geek, that began to see common pattern in most fiction that assumed evolution was true, but never actual touched on the specifics.
I have a very intuitive mind.
I have only been a Christian for about 3 years.I rejected evolution at least 10 years ago, as self-evidently absurd. I researched all the journals I could get my hand on, and they all shocked me on their total lack of actual evidence, and unbelievable level of assumptions and misuse of language.
Sorry to disillusion you.
But anyone that adheres to evolution without checking, and rechecking the data for themselves, is the one suffering from bias. Your claim is a slap in the face of every Christian scientist since medieval times that has brought us to the current state of high technology, and deeply insulting.
Well your first problem is you dont get real science from science fiction, and really why would an atheist ever become a christian? For most of us it only takes reading though the bible to become an atheist in the first place, i have never heard of anyone going back? As for evolution i have studied this for decades and it always stays true even when i try to disprove it. And BTW Christian scientist is an oxymoron and they are responsible for nothing and saying that its "Christian scientist" that has brought us to the current state of high technology is what is truly insulting, it was Christians that put us in the dark ages and set us back thousands of years.... And FYI yes i keep my education up to date ...

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#74352
Feb 7, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Last time I checked, 15 billion for the universe, 5 billion for earth, more or less.
Why?
I suppose you think that is evidence for evolution, if life has been on the earth for about 3 to 4 billion years?
No, it's not. The model doesn't work. The model is so poor a theory that it would be better to speculate that earth was been the plaything of alien cultures landing all sorts of creatures on the planet for all this time.
I'll take Ancient Aliens and David Brin style Galatics any day.
No, I was seeing if you were a YEC or not.

So how do you believe that people got here.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74353
Feb 7, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't even know what the scientific method is, much less what constitutes scientific evidence.
So are you going to continue to bray like an uneducated donkey or do you actually want to learn something? It might be too late to learn tonight, but I will try to answer any questions given to me.
Once again, I am willing to show that evolution is a scientific belief. It is supported by scientific evidence. And no one has written any other scientific explanation.
These are all facts that even honest creationists will admit.
So, do you want to be an embarrassment to your kids for the rest of your life? I guarantee you that when they become adults they will be laughing at you over this, or do you want to learn?
Are you kidding me?

I used to be believe in evolution whole-heartedly 10 years ago, until I needed more details on the model and how it works. I have a highly intuitive mind, and the whole thing kept nagging and nagging at me.

I will teach you, friend.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/Bio...

It begin with the problem of how such rarities in mutations can effect change. This was my question as well. It's been THE question for over a 100 years, and everyone just assumed the answer was close at hand.

And yet, the conclusion of this article is as good as it gets, which is pathetic at best, and downright dishonest for the most part when you really tear down the layers.

I kept it to myself, and continued to do more research when I had time, but no longer can I play along with the ruse ... especially in light of the staggering COST and LOSS OF TIME keeping this theory going against all rational thought and reason, the sheer WASTE when the scientific community could have been spending much more time on REAL issues, like food production and technology.

No, sir, it is you I am trying to educate, and failing miserably as I go against not peer-reviewed evidence, but ossified peer-pressure on a massive, global scale unprecedented in human history, save the rise of Islam or Christianity.

You really want to shake things up? Then start from zero, void your mind of ALL assumptions and preconceived notions, and start over. Maybe, just maybe, you might see the obvious. And maybe not.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74354
Feb 7, 2013
 
HTS and others have made similar claims, and we never get anywhere but they always say: explain.
And then they do not read.

60-75 mutation every generation is what kids are born with anyway. What makes them unique.
25 huge genomic changes in the alleles is what humans probably (scientific term i.e. depending on the method used)had after the split from the simians , per 1 million years. resulting in about 125 major changes.
Those given a big population, would spread exponentionally.(The smaller ones also, but you would not notice it.)And deleterious ones would be neutralised due to genetic diversity.

----From a somewhat outdated 1995 textbook:
Say we have a very small population.
Then these condition can be of effect:

-Deleterious mutations &#64257;x at a high rate;
-Fixed alleles have large effect; and
-The reproductive excess of the population is small.

The factors that accentuate these three terms are sometimes contradictory. As
we show later, mutations of large effect are both rarer and less likely to &#64257;x.
---
So it would not just be about the number, because the genome has many loci, that can even be re-used for mutations.
We also make doubles.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

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#74355
Feb 7, 2013
 
MAAT wrote:
Blablabla
I see we are going nowhere fast then:
YY wrote:
The entire theory is anti-science. It has become so institutionalized, and the community so desperate to maintain the fallacy, that is is not wasting a staggering amount of energy, time, and money that could be better spent solving other serious world problems.
end quote
Another claim that needs to be validated.
So some people notice a pattern, observe, test, write it down, and try to explain what they observed. And way earlier then the 19th century.
Fine, no worries, tons of books are published every year that are actually total trash and just to entertain.
This theory however offers insights in medical conditions and cures and helps producing better harvests and better cattle a.s.o.
And now it totally eludes me as to where the waist is. Vague statement, populistic, stating everything and nothing...and oh yeah let's safe the word.
I.o.w. i'm waisting my time here and have so much more important things to do, but you people have taken the money i want and are keeping me from my saviour activities.
That actually sounds really pathetic.
Oh no!...another messiah complex.
Just as a courtesy, I haven't been, and will not be reading your posts, just in case you valued your time and had something better to do than insist I buy into your BS.

Just FYI.

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#74356
Feb 7, 2013
 
Yahoo, the site you listed forgot that there are two driving forces to evolution. Variation, of which mutation is only part, and natural selection. The writer of your article forgot about natural selection which cleans up the harmful mutations from the genome. Animals with harmful mutations are less likely survive, much less breed, which is what they would have to do to pass on their harmful mutations.

That looks like it might be the work of John Sanford. A creationist who's idea was almost instantaneously debunked.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74357
Feb 7, 2013
 
Ah no, you had better things to do.
And so far you have not convinved.
And Sub is trying to rescue you or rather your kid from embarrasment.
No use appealing to your better nature.

But did you read/interprete that article properly.
If homozygotous change is not good on the condon (lethal), well then we best had the usual heterozygotic codon change!:)

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74358
Feb 7, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
Yahoo, the site you listed forgot that there are two driving forces to evolution. Variation, of which mutation is only part, and natural selection. The writer of your article forgot about natural selection which cleans up the harmful mutations from the genome. Animals with harmful mutations are less likely survive, much less breed, which is what they would have to do to pass on their harmful mutations.
That looks like it might be the work of John Sanford. A creationist who's idea was almost instantaneously debunked.
It allready started to sound familiar.

Ah well, they would do that. I mean simply plonk it here again, having skimmed some issue, but not aware that is was just debunked.
At least Shubee made the angle of approach obvious and the medical conditions made it more interesting.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74359
Feb 7, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Just as a courtesy, I haven't been, and will not be reading your posts, just in case you valued your time and had something better to do than insist I buy into your BS.
Just FYI.
Don't fret.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74360
Feb 7, 2013
 
YY t was uneducational talking to you.
Just scoring some points here :)))

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74361
Feb 7, 2013
 
Maybe you cold by a thought-compactor.
Have your thoughts stored on a bacteria f.i.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#74362
Feb 7, 2013
 
cold by- could buy- good-bye

Off to town.
Have a nice day y'all.

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