Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74331 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
No, all of the point you tried to make you were wrong on.
So what part of evolution do you thinks is "anti-science".
P.S., it is a good idea to avoid creationist sites when it comes to looking for evidence and arguments. They are filled with liar and convicted felons.
My point?

I make no point. Evolution does. It makes the point of mutations being the catalyst of change over long periods of time.

No evidence supports that after many years of gathering evidence. The theory is no longer sustainable, but they keep coming up with creative new ways to keep it going, that is for sure.

The entire theory is anti-science. It has become so institutionalized, and the community so desperate to maintain the fallacy, that is is not wasting a staggering amount of energy, time, and money that could be better spent solving other serious world problems.

And do you keep bringing up Creationism? When have I ever supported it, or quoted from one? Is that part of your usually talking points when dealing with disagreement?

Very unscientific. A does not believe in evolution, therefore, A must be an evolutionist.

You are an idiot if you continue to talk about Creationists that have even LESS standing than evolutionists.

BOTH are enemies of science. BOTH are a massive waste of time and money.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74332 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
You might be some sort of rare animal, but I doubt it. Most people in the U.S. tend to fall into two they believe the theory of evolution or the creation myth. Or they might be somewhere in between.
So, I have one question for you. What do you believe and why?
And most people are either "conservatives" or "liberals" too.

Americans have a nasty habit of putting politics and beliefs ahead of cold, hard, rational thought.

There is no "in between."

Either a theory has evidence, or it does not. No need to apply unscientific labels like "Evolutionist" or "Creationist" to the issue, as that is merely evidence of bias.

Now, you can explain or provide evidence of there being enough mutations to effect change in species, or you can step to the side, and let us get on with real science.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74333 Feb 6, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry my friend....you ARE wrong, all that I said is true.
As I expected. No counter argument. No attempt to provide evidence for your beliefs. And no game.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Kalispell Montana

#74334 Feb 6, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
I have very little respect for people like you, sir. Such ignorance is almost unforgivable, and poses a very real threat to science and society in general.
It is religion that poses a real threat to society in general. Religion took over the Republican party the last 10-12 years or so, and is still trying to insert the Christian religion into our schools in contravention of the constitution.

They want to eventually control our government and impose christian laws. Some say George Bush was thinking of starting Armageddon and his 'Christian Cabinet' was egging him on.

I don't believe any atheists would fly airplanes into skyscrapers....it takes religion to do such dumb-ass things.

Christianity had a really bad reputation for killing those who don't believe in the early days, it is only fairly recently that it has been forced to calmed down. Religion has killed millions of people down through the years, for religious reasons.

I believe it is you who is ignorant bud.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#74335 Feb 6, 2013
Humans are not able to reproduce asexually. Asexual reproduction involves only mitosis.

In the human reproductive system sperm cells are formed by another type of nuclear division called meiosis in which cells with two sets of chromosomes form cells with only one set.

Mitosis is when the cells such as stem cells make identical copies of themselves.

---
Nevertheless parthegonesis begot what people callgods sons.
It happened more often in what some call heathen mythology.

So if that is true (being a christian it must be an article of faith.)

Then how does that fit in the idea of a non-flat earth creationist non-catalystic mutation?
And how do all the previous occurences fit in that model?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#74336 Feb 6, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Funny.
I never made any claims for Creationism.
Making you the fool, again.
And no, the fossils do not support evolution. They are just sitting their minding their own business. Only people support evolution, the vast majority on faith, and a rare few that desperately write scientific journals to keep the charade going lest they lose their careers.
Only an idiot who does not understand scientific evidence would make that claim.

So are you an idiot or do you want to learn how fossils support the theory of evolution?

And once again, I asked you what you believed and why. Are you ashamed of what you believe?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#74337 Feb 6, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
And most people are either "conservatives" or "liberals" too.
Americans have a nasty habit of putting politics and beliefs ahead of cold, hard, rational thought.
There is no "in between."
Either a theory has evidence, or it does not. No need to apply unscientific labels like "Evolutionist" or "Creationist" to the issue, as that is merely evidence of bias.
Now, you can explain or provide evidence of there being enough mutations to effect change in species, or you can step to the side, and let us get on with real science.
I don't have to provide evidence of enough mutations for evolution. Talk to a geneticist for that. Since there are on average at least 75 mutations per person per generation I don't see why number of mutations is a problem. Do you?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#74338 Feb 6, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
It is religion that poses a real threat to society in general. Religion took over the Republican party the last 10-12 years or so, and is still trying to insert the Christian religion into our schools in contravention of the constitution.
They want to eventually control our government and impose christian laws. Some say George Bush was thinking of starting Armageddon and his 'Christian Cabinet' was egging him on.
I don't believe any atheists would fly airplanes into skyscrapers....it takes religion to do such dumb-ass things.
Christianity had a really bad reputation for killing those who don't believe in the early days, it is only fairly recently that it has been forced to calmed down. Religion has killed millions of people down through the years, for religious reasons.
I believe it is you who is ignorant bud.
Sadly you are right.

I am no longer comfortable identifying with the Republican Party. They have left all sensible limited government Republicans behind.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#74339 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
I feel like educating people tonight.

Science only, no propaganda.

Yahoo, how old do you think the Solar System and the Earth are?
Hold on, I'm counting candles.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Kalispell Montana

#74340 Feb 6, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
As I expected. No counter argument. No attempt to provide evidence for your beliefs. And no game.
Provide evidence for what?

All you have to do is follow the creation/atheist argument and you know this stuff.

For 150+ years creationists have been predicting the fall of evolution....never happened, never will.

Common knowledge that all (real) science organizations support evolution.

Show me one who doesn't.

The organizations that groups like AiG, CRI, Discovery Institute, etc. don't count as they are religious funded establishments

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#74341 Feb 6, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
And most people are either "conservatives" or "liberals" too.
Americans have a nasty habit of putting politics and beliefs ahead of cold, hard, rational thought.
There is no "in between."
Either a theory has evidence, or it does not. No need to apply unscientific labels like "Evolutionist" or "Creationist" to the issue, as that is merely evidence of bias.
Now, you can explain or provide evidence of there being enough mutations to effect change in species, or you can step to the side, and let us get on with real science.
You started with the our kind' and 'you people'.
Setting the tome unneccessary.

You made the point that the math does not compute.
IF YOU make the statement YOU must proof it.
You stated there are not enough mutations to effect perceptible change (in the lifetime of people or in general and in all species).
THEREFORE YOU must first show that this is the case.

It's just the normal debating rules.
Claim the evidence, you proof the evidence.
No labels just a scientificdiscussion between civilised people.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74342 Feb 6, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
It is religion that poses a real threat to society in general. Religion took over the Republican party the last 10-12 years or so, and is still trying to insert the Christian religion into our schools in contravention of the constitution.
They want to eventually control our government and impose christian laws. Some say George Bush was thinking of starting Armageddon and his 'Christian Cabinet' was egging him on.
I don't believe any atheists would fly airplanes into skyscrapers....it takes religion to do such dumb-ass things.
Christianity had a really bad reputation for killing those who don't believe in the early days, it is only fairly recently that it has been forced to calmed down. Religion has killed millions of people down through the years, for religious reasons.
I believe it is you who is ignorant bud.
Lying again? Showing you utter lack of historical knowledge, yet again?

Religion poses no threat to anyone. People pose threats. religion is static.

No, Christians, as taxpayers, feeling disenfranchised and excluded from public discourse, took over the Republican Party, or are trying unsuccessfully, as current affairs suggest. Are you claiming they should have no voice, and no party in our democracy? How very fascist of you!

They have every right to control our government. All governments must be controlled by the people, and especially subject to some sort of moral authority, lest they attempt to BECOME the moral authority, and became a real danger and threat to the public good. Are you SUGGESTING that government should be exempt from moral authority? How very fascist of you!

No, it takes a really bad ideology OR religion to crash planes into buildings.

Which is why all terrorists organizations on the CIA list are MUSLIM and MARXIST, every last one of them. No capitalist terrorists, no Classic Liberal terrorists, no Libertarian terrorists ... just Muslims and Marxists ... oh, and I think one Buddhist one in Myanmar.

Christianity has no such reputation except for that which Protestants imposed upon it to justify their rebellion and political views, and later what Marxists dreamed up. Aside from the slander and outright lies about the Faith, Christianity is not only the best religion on earth, it is the very catalyst of all science and learning on the planet, hands down, with a civilization to prove it.

Religion kills no one. People do.

You old fraud, you are quite the conformist to secular humanist propaganda, aren't you? Do you get paid for that? Or are you that much of a fool?

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74343 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Only an idiot who does not understand scientific evidence would make that claim.
So are you an idiot or do you want to learn how fossils support the theory of evolution?
And once again, I asked you what you believed and why. Are you ashamed of what you believe?
Not a claim, it's a refutation of your claim, that remains unsupported.

No, you need to ask questions. You need to read the source material with an unbiased mind, if you can, and see for yourself how fossils don't do a damned thing for your anti-science cause.

I believe in science. Therefore, I cannot believe in evolution.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74344 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't have to provide evidence of enough mutations for evolution. Talk to a geneticist for that. Since there are on average at least 75 mutations per person per generation I don't see why number of mutations is a problem. Do you?
Yes you do. If you assert that evolution is correct, then show us the evidence.

Are you trying pass the buck?

Exactly. 75 mutations per person (a number that changes radically over time.)

Which is not even an iota of what is needed to effect change. You would need many THOUSANDS of mutations to get the whopping %1 of effective mutations of the total sum, to even BEGIN to effect change.

If you don't see how that is a problem, then you sink yourself thoroughly in a very deep and dark cesspool of total ignorance.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74345 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Sadly you are right.
I am no longer comfortable identifying with the Republican Party. They have left all sensible limited government Republicans behind.
Mm, one thing we might agree on at long last.

So, you favor limited government?

Shocking, for an atheist. At least that means there is hope for you being a freethinker.:)

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74346 Feb 6, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
Provide evidence for what?
All you have to do is follow the creation/atheist argument and you know this stuff.
For 150+ years creationists have been predicting the fall of evolution....never happened, never will.
Common knowledge that all (real) science organizations support evolution.
Show me one who doesn't.
The organizations that groups like AiG, CRI, Discovery Institute, etc. don't count as they are religious funded establishments
I already refuted this, and told you that Christians, not atheists, advanced the theory of evolution.

No one has tried to denounce it until it was too late, and it was too entrenched, and too politically charged to be discarded as it would have under normal scientific scrutiny.

I don't even know who those organizations are. My conclusions about evolution based on its own principles is not based on any outside evidence. It is self-evident.

What is very interesting is how so many humans believe in such things without evidence, and convince themselves that it is valid to the point of total insanity. That must be a study unto itself, and one that will baffle many generations to come.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#74347 Feb 6, 2013
Blablabla
I see we are going nowhere fast then:

YY wrote:
The entire theory is anti-science. It has become so institutionalized, and the community so desperate to maintain the fallacy, that is is not wasting a staggering amount of energy, time, and money that could be better spent solving other serious world problems.

end quote

Another claim that needs to be validated.

So some people notice a pattern, observe, test, write it down, and try to explain what they observed. And way earlier then the 19th century.
Fine, no worries, tons of books are published every year that are actually total trash and just to entertain.
This theory however offers insights in medical conditions and cures and helps producing better harvests and better cattle a.s.o.

And now it totally eludes me as to where the waist is. Vague statement, populistic, stating everything and nothing...and oh yeah let's safe the word.

I.o.w. i'm waisting my time here and have so much more important things to do, but you people have taken the money i want and are keeping me from my saviour activities.

That actually sounds really pathetic.
Oh no!...another messiah complex.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#74348 Feb 6, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Not a claim, it's a refutation of your claim, that remains unsupported.
No, you need to ask questions. You need to read the source material with an unbiased mind, if you can, and see for yourself how fossils don't do a damned thing for your anti-science cause.
I believe in science. Therefore, I cannot believe in evolution.
You don't even know what the scientific method is, much less what constitutes scientific evidence.

So are you going to continue to bray like an uneducated donkey or do you actually want to learn something? It might be too late to learn tonight, but I will try to answer any questions given to me.

Once again, I am willing to show that evolution is a scientific belief. It is supported by scientific evidence. And no one has written any other scientific explanation.

These are all facts that even honest creationists will admit.

So, do you want to be an embarrassment to your kids for the rest of your life? I guarantee you that when they become adults they will be laughing at you over this, or do you want to learn?

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Level 1

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

#74349 Feb 6, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
I feel like educating people tonight.
Science only, no propaganda.
Yahoo, how old do you think the Solar System and the Earth are?
Last time I checked, 15 billion for the universe, 5 billion for earth, more or less.

Why?

I suppose you think that is evidence for evolution, if life has been on the earth for about 3 to 4 billion years?

No, it's not. The model doesn't work. The model is so poor a theory that it would be better to speculate that earth was been the plaything of alien cultures landing all sorts of creatures on the planet for all this time.

I'll take Ancient Aliens and David Brin style Galatics any day.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#74350 Feb 7, 2013
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes you do. If you assert that evolution is correct, then show us the evidence.
Are you trying pass the buck?
Exactly. 75 mutations per person (a number that changes radically over time.)
Which is not even an iota of what is needed to effect change. You would need many THOUSANDS of mutations to get the whopping %1 of effective mutations of the total sum, to even BEGIN to effect change.
If you don't see how that is a problem, then you sink yourself thoroughly in a very deep and dark cesspool of total ignorance.
What? That is more than enough mutations for man to evolve from the ancestor that we shared with chimps.

Alright this is very oversimplified but it will get the point across.

Now, we know that the average human population was much less on average than it is now. So let's say a reasonable human population as it evolved was 100,000 individuals, on average. Sometimes more and sometimes less. A generation on average, especially in olden days was less than 20 years. So, and I am doing this as a favor to you to lessen my numbers lets say 25 years per generation, even though that is much too high. The human separation from bonobos and chimps probably occurred about 7 million years ago, but let's call it 6 million. Again, I am limiting my time for evolution that you said we did not have enough time for the observed genetic differences between man and chimp. Lastly when Chimp and human DNA is compared there is less than a 2% difference. So again, I am going to make the difference greater and round up to 2%.

Now let's crunch some numbers. 100,000 people times 6,000,000 years divided by 25 years per generation times 75 mutations per generation give us a pool of 1.8 trillion mutations for the gene pool.

So how much was the difference between humans and chimpanzees. Ah yes, 2%. And since we have about 30,000 genes that would be a difference of 600 genes.

Now not all of the changes form the shared ancestor to human and chimp were single changes. Quite a few of them could be changes of more than one gene, but not too many, otherwise our differences would be greater. Still I am feeling very generous tonight and will doubt the number of changes needed. So we will say that 1,200 genes had to change. Okay let's see. 1,200 changes divided 1.8 trillion changes in the gene pool. That means only one out of fifteen million mutations that occurred would have to be in the right direction for people to have evolved.

And I was being generous. The mutations are in the gene pool. And don't give me that nonsense of two people having to meet up, that is not how genetics work. Let's say we have a population of brown eyed people and one person develops the mutation for blue eyes. Do you think that mutation will disappear? I can guarantee you that it won't. And that is for a recessive gene. A dominant gene gets into the gene pool even quicker.

Evolution is more than possible if you play the numbers game.

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