Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
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“what we think we become”

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#71727
Jan 22, 2013
 
*presence
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#71728
Jan 22, 2013
 

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Cybele wrote:
Animals don't have an awareness like humans do.
Indeed, often their awareness is better. That's why many animals have better senses of hearing, taste, touch, smell and eyesight. It's quite common for animals to flee storms long before we have any clue what's coming.

“what we think we become”

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#71729
Jan 22, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed, often their awareness is better. That's why many animals have better senses of hearing, taste, touch, smell and eyesight. It's quite common for animals to flee storms long before we have any clue what's coming.
I agree.
neutral observer

West Palm Beach, FL

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#71730
Jan 22, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Subjective terms.

The claim that "order" implies "intelligence" is a flawed argument. Since Earth is the ONLY known place with life does that mean the rest of the universe is chaotic? Or if it also shows order despite a lack of life then life itself is not evidence of an intervening intelligence, in which case "order" is simply the natural physical constants of our particular expansion phase. Other universes will also be "ordered" but simply have different physical constants. And as always in each case an intervening intelligence will be an undemonstrated assumption. Perhaps possible. But undemonstrated.
You assume that intelligence requires consciousness? Look at the complexity of our DNA. That complexity hardly suggests that we were constructed by an all knowing being.

There is an intelligence to the universe and to nature...

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#71731
Jan 22, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Subjective terms.
The claim that "order" implies "intelligence" is a flawed argument. Since Earth is the ONLY known place with life does that mean the rest of the universe is chaotic? Or if it also shows order despite a lack of life then life itself is not evidence of an intervening intelligence, in which case "order" is simply the natural physical constants of our particular expansion phase. Other universes will also be "ordered" but simply have different physical constants. And as always in each case an intervening intelligence will be an undemonstrated assumption. Perhaps possible. But undemonstrated.
read the statement dude...I did not say or imply intelligence....I said that order and chaos are relative...gaseous nebulae are consider chaotic in relationship to a star before it is formed, but consider orderly if compared to space dust that is uncondensed.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#71732
Jan 22, 2013
 
neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
You assume that intelligence requires consciousness? Look at the complexity of our DNA. That complexity hardly suggests that we were constructed by an all knowing being.
I agree. There is no evidence to support that.
neutral observer wrote:
There is an intelligence to the universe and to nature...
I disagree. There is no evidence to support that.
The Dude

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#71733
Jan 22, 2013
 
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
read the statement dude...I did not say or imply intelligence....I said that order and chaos are relative...gaseous nebulae are consider chaotic in relationship to a star before it is formed, but consider orderly if compared to space dust that is uncondensed.
Fair enough.

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#71734
Jan 22, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually yes, one of evolutionary survival - develop a set of cultural practices encouraging others to participate. Co-operation leads to survival advantages. Those who do not involve themselves in any of those groups may be considered an outcast and be at a survival disadvantage.
This is the very reason why religions exist today, despite having a lack of scientific evidence to back them up.
<quoted text>
Your personal subjective opinion is irrelevant.
<quoted text>
They lack the ability to communicate in abstract forms.
<quoted text>
It would seem that way only to the incredulous. It is even quite possible that some apes may have religious ideas of their own, but they unfortunately aren't able to communicate their ideas to their brethren. Dolphins might however, but their language is simply far too complex for humans to understand.
Actually yes, one of evolutionary survival - develop a set of cultural practices encouraging others to participate. Co-operation leads to survival advantages. Those who do not involve themselves in any of those groups may be considered an outcast and be at a survival disadvantage.

cultural participation works just as well without religion...so this would Imply a different reason.

(Not to mention religious wars which is detrimental to the species as a whole)
neutral observer

West Palm Beach, FL

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#71735
Jan 22, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. There is no evidence to support that.
?????

It is semantics... not evidence.

There is an intelligence in how the universe operates. That does not imply that there is an intelligence guiding it.

Two different uses of the word.

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#71736
Jan 22, 2013
 

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neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
?????
It is semantics... not evidence.
There is an intelligence in how the universe operates. That does not imply that there is an intelligence guiding it.
Two different uses of the word.
If you know anything at all about psychology... the refusal to acknowledge an obvious intelligent process, is entirely ego based.

For example, the refusal to acknowledge Native Americans as a people by European settlers, because this would be detrimental to their material gain.

In other words, science can't claim ownership to a Universe that's already owned....lol
The Dude

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#71737
Jan 22, 2013
 
xxxooxxx wrote:
cultural participation works just as well without religion...so this would Imply a different reason.
(Not to mention religious wars which is detrimental to the species as a whole)
Yes, religion is not required, but is still on valid route to communal cooperation. As you pointed out war, competition with other communities is also an issue, and the potential benefits (real or imagined) of belonging to a particular group can help strengthen that group by acquiring more, or maintaining adherents.
The Dude

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#71738
Jan 22, 2013
 
neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
?????
It is semantics... not evidence.
There is an intelligence in how the universe operates. That does not imply that there is an intelligence guiding it.
Two different uses of the word.
Then if there is no intelligence guiding it, there is no intelligence in how the universe operates if there are no observers.

If an asteroid blew up the Earth, the universe would still exist and operate in the same manner even if we are not here to observe it. It would remain by and large unaffected.
The Dude

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#71739
Jan 22, 2013
 
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
If you know anything at all about psychology... the refusal to acknowledge an obvious intelligent process, is entirely ego based.
By the same token, the assertion of an intelligent process without evidence is also entirely ego based. For example: an invisible magical Jewish wizard that created the universe especially for us.

“You want a piece of this?!??”

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#71740
Jan 22, 2013
 
Evolution > Creation

End of story.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

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#71741
Jan 22, 2013
 
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>It happened at the command of the Creator and the universe and the earth did not take billions of years to answer to his word.
And his almighty felt it necessary to create elaborate evidence just to trick us? Why? Why shouldn't I just decide that a bunch of ignorant shaman are just playing word games and trying to wear everyone out?

Yeah, you've got a lot of company in that category, but I'll take a seat and watch the show when that comes on!
anonymous

Franklin, PA

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#71742
Jan 22, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
They don't. In fact there are numerous scientific organisations across the world who are working on that very subject. But it's more of a subject for chemists than for biologists. It still has no bearing on evolution, which doesn't care if life was magically poofed into existence, just as long as life is here. Life IS here. Life evolves. Facts.
You'll get yourself stuck up a tree if you don't keep the context straight. None of us have the time to sit around and observe evolution in action. We just analyze what is around us and calculate probability. If you phrase Evolution science any other way, you'll just waste time on other people's stupid debate tactics.

I'd rather ignore the trolls by encouraging thoughtful comments. I'm not interested in taking a victory lap around the city walls for skewering a troll.

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#71743
Jan 22, 2013
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
By the same token, the assertion of an intelligent process without evidence is also entirely ego based. For example: an invisible magical Jewish wizard that created the universe especially for us.
who knows...in the Parallel Universe Theory anything is possible...

see ya in hell...

or maybe we're in hell and don't know it....

or...

anonymous

Franklin, PA

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#71744
Jan 22, 2013
 

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Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> We are not talking about politics or nationalism but on homosexuality.
No, we are talking about Evolution vs. Creation.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm the only person who has had the sense to challenge the liberal advocates who suggest that "homosexuality" is the product of evolution by the virtue of its presumed "positive" impact on a culture. Only I do it with logic, not bible thumping so stay out of my debates.

Natural selection is based on sexual reproduction. If there is no passing of the genes from one to the next generation, there will not be an inherited trait. Even if the detrimental effect of homosexual failure to procreate were not enough to prove the concept false, the plain-as-day fact that such a trait is inherently racist by its nature proves the false logic of the claim.

Genes are selfish, period! Groups overcome selfish instincts by experience, but trust is vulnerability sooner or later if the group behavior is not constantly relearned from generation to generation, and it must be learned far faster than evolution could ever adjust for. Trust is also a negative attribute if it is simply a behavior learned by misdirected sexual gratification, and has no ability to discern a valuable group member from a parasite.

There! You have a logical argument. Not that you'll ever be able to use to do anything other than bludgeon yourself under the table!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#71745
Jan 22, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
You'll get yourself stuck up a tree if you don't keep the context straight. None of us have the time to sit around and observe evolution in action. We just analyze what is around us and calculate probability. If you phrase Evolution science any other way, you'll just waste time on other people's stupid debate tactics.
I'd rather ignore the trolls by encouraging thoughtful comments. I'm not interested in taking a victory lap around the city walls for skewering a troll.
Since this thread is full of fundies thoughtful comments can be rare. However skewering trolls is not done merely for skewing trolls, it is also to counter the misinformation they spread. Which can at the very least provide potential lurkers to evaluate positions for themselves and hint at further lines of investigation.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#71746
Jan 22, 2013
 
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
who knows...in the Parallel Universe Theory anything is possible...
see ya in hell...
or maybe we're in hell and don't know it....
or...
Anything is possible anyway. All things require are evidence.

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