Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71723 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a subjective argument from your point of view....the question was directed at me...I gave an honest opinion from what posts I read.
As did I. The difference being the facts support my case. When I'm being subjective I'll let people know.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71724 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
So "religiosity" would be a natural construct of the human mind that transcends all ancient and present day cultures...what purpose would it serve in terms of evolution?...surly not one of evolutionary survival.
Actually yes, one of evolutionary survival - develop a set of cultural practices encouraging others to participate. Co-operation leads to survival advantages. Those who do not involve themselves in any of those groups may be considered an outcast and be at a survival disadvantage.

This is the very reason why religions exist today, despite having a lack of scientific evidence to back them up.
xxxooxxx wrote:
"religiosity" would seem to me, to be directly related to a higher perception of reality....
Your personal subjective opinion is irrelevant.
xxxooxxx wrote:
No mention of great apes, or monkeys, or any animal for that matter in this article practicing religiosity....why?
They lack the ability to communicate in abstract forms.
xxxooxxx wrote:
It would seem that if we were so closely related as implied by the evolution theory, then religiosity would be readily apparent in the animal kingdom. I cannot even think of one example...can you?
It would seem that way only to the incredulous. It is even quite possible that some apes may have religious ideas of their own, but they unfortunately aren't able to communicate their ideas to their brethren. Dolphins might however, but their language is simply far too complex for humans to understand.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71725 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
Can't have order without chaos...or chaos without order.
...relative terms.
Subjective terms.

The claim that "order" implies "intelligence" is a flawed argument. Since Earth is the ONLY known place with life does that mean the rest of the universe is chaotic? Or if it also shows order despite a lack of life then life itself is not evidence of an intervening intelligence, in which case "order" is simply the natural physical constants of our particular expansion phase. Other universes will also be "ordered" but simply have different physical constants. And as always in each case an intervening intelligence will be an undemonstrated assumption. Perhaps possible. But undemonstrated.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71726 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
So "religiosity" would be a natural construct of the human mind that transcends all ancient and present day cultures...what purpose would it serve in terms of evolution?...surly not one of evolutionary survival.
"religiosity" would seem to me, to be directly related to a higher perception of reality....
No mention of great apes, or monkeys, or any animal for that matter in this article practicing religiosity....why?
It would seem that if we were so closely related as implied by the evolution theory, then religiosity would be readily apparent in the animal kingdom. I cannot even think of one example...can you?
( The praying mantis might be an exception...but I don't think that would that really count?....do you?...lol
Yes you are right but I don't think religion is necessary for one to achieve a higher perception of reality. I'm not religious but I'm spiritual. There is a difference.

Animals don't have an awareness like humans do. Have you seen one get high? If they did who knows what could happen. lol

Although I consider animals to be somewhat spiritual. They do mourn for the dead and do burial rituals. Elephants are one good example of that. It's just in a different level than humans.

The point is delusions may have resulted from altered consciousness. The pharaohs of Egypt believed they were reincarnate of the Gods. And I believe they tried substances to achieve such altered states. Heard of presences of drugs in mummies?



“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71727 Jan 22, 2013
*presence
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71728 Jan 22, 2013
Cybele wrote:
Animals don't have an awareness like humans do.
Indeed, often their awareness is better. That's why many animals have better senses of hearing, taste, touch, smell and eyesight. It's quite common for animals to flee storms long before we have any clue what's coming.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71729 Jan 22, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed, often their awareness is better. That's why many animals have better senses of hearing, taste, touch, smell and eyesight. It's quite common for animals to flee storms long before we have any clue what's coming.
I agree.
neutral observer

Lake Worth, FL

#71730 Jan 22, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Subjective terms.

The claim that "order" implies "intelligence" is a flawed argument. Since Earth is the ONLY known place with life does that mean the rest of the universe is chaotic? Or if it also shows order despite a lack of life then life itself is not evidence of an intervening intelligence, in which case "order" is simply the natural physical constants of our particular expansion phase. Other universes will also be "ordered" but simply have different physical constants. And as always in each case an intervening intelligence will be an undemonstrated assumption. Perhaps possible. But undemonstrated.
You assume that intelligence requires consciousness? Look at the complexity of our DNA. That complexity hardly suggests that we were constructed by an all knowing being.

There is an intelligence to the universe and to nature...

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71731 Jan 22, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Subjective terms.
The claim that "order" implies "intelligence" is a flawed argument. Since Earth is the ONLY known place with life does that mean the rest of the universe is chaotic? Or if it also shows order despite a lack of life then life itself is not evidence of an intervening intelligence, in which case "order" is simply the natural physical constants of our particular expansion phase. Other universes will also be "ordered" but simply have different physical constants. And as always in each case an intervening intelligence will be an undemonstrated assumption. Perhaps possible. But undemonstrated.
read the statement dude...I did not say or imply intelligence....I said that order and chaos are relative...gaseous nebulae are consider chaotic in relationship to a star before it is formed, but consider orderly if compared to space dust that is uncondensed.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71732 Jan 22, 2013
neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
You assume that intelligence requires consciousness? Look at the complexity of our DNA. That complexity hardly suggests that we were constructed by an all knowing being.
I agree. There is no evidence to support that.
neutral observer wrote:
There is an intelligence to the universe and to nature...
I disagree. There is no evidence to support that.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71733 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
read the statement dude...I did not say or imply intelligence....I said that order and chaos are relative...gaseous nebulae are consider chaotic in relationship to a star before it is formed, but consider orderly if compared to space dust that is uncondensed.
Fair enough.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71734 Jan 22, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually yes, one of evolutionary survival - develop a set of cultural practices encouraging others to participate. Co-operation leads to survival advantages. Those who do not involve themselves in any of those groups may be considered an outcast and be at a survival disadvantage.
This is the very reason why religions exist today, despite having a lack of scientific evidence to back them up.
<quoted text>
Your personal subjective opinion is irrelevant.
<quoted text>
They lack the ability to communicate in abstract forms.
<quoted text>
It would seem that way only to the incredulous. It is even quite possible that some apes may have religious ideas of their own, but they unfortunately aren't able to communicate their ideas to their brethren. Dolphins might however, but their language is simply far too complex for humans to understand.
Actually yes, one of evolutionary survival - develop a set of cultural practices encouraging others to participate. Co-operation leads to survival advantages. Those who do not involve themselves in any of those groups may be considered an outcast and be at a survival disadvantage.

cultural participation works just as well without religion...so this would Imply a different reason.

(Not to mention religious wars which is detrimental to the species as a whole)
neutral observer

Lake Worth, FL

#71735 Jan 22, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. There is no evidence to support that.
?????

It is semantics... not evidence.

There is an intelligence in how the universe operates. That does not imply that there is an intelligence guiding it.

Two different uses of the word.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71736 Jan 22, 2013
neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
?????
It is semantics... not evidence.
There is an intelligence in how the universe operates. That does not imply that there is an intelligence guiding it.
Two different uses of the word.
If you know anything at all about psychology... the refusal to acknowledge an obvious intelligent process, is entirely ego based.

For example, the refusal to acknowledge Native Americans as a people by European settlers, because this would be detrimental to their material gain.

In other words, science can't claim ownership to a Universe that's already owned....lol
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71737 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
cultural participation works just as well without religion...so this would Imply a different reason.
(Not to mention religious wars which is detrimental to the species as a whole)
Yes, religion is not required, but is still on valid route to communal cooperation. As you pointed out war, competition with other communities is also an issue, and the potential benefits (real or imagined) of belonging to a particular group can help strengthen that group by acquiring more, or maintaining adherents.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71738 Jan 22, 2013
neutral observer wrote:
<quoted text>
?????
It is semantics... not evidence.
There is an intelligence in how the universe operates. That does not imply that there is an intelligence guiding it.
Two different uses of the word.
Then if there is no intelligence guiding it, there is no intelligence in how the universe operates if there are no observers.

If an asteroid blew up the Earth, the universe would still exist and operate in the same manner even if we are not here to observe it. It would remain by and large unaffected.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#71739 Jan 22, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
If you know anything at all about psychology... the refusal to acknowledge an obvious intelligent process, is entirely ego based.
By the same token, the assertion of an intelligent process without evidence is also entirely ego based. For example: an invisible magical Jewish wizard that created the universe especially for us.

“You want a piece of this?!??”

Level 1

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#71740 Jan 22, 2013
Evolution > Creation

End of story.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#71741 Jan 22, 2013
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>It happened at the command of the Creator and the universe and the earth did not take billions of years to answer to his word.
And his almighty felt it necessary to create elaborate evidence just to trick us? Why? Why shouldn't I just decide that a bunch of ignorant shaman are just playing word games and trying to wear everyone out?

Yeah, you've got a lot of company in that category, but I'll take a seat and watch the show when that comes on!
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#71742 Jan 22, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
They don't. In fact there are numerous scientific organisations across the world who are working on that very subject. But it's more of a subject for chemists than for biologists. It still has no bearing on evolution, which doesn't care if life was magically poofed into existence, just as long as life is here. Life IS here. Life evolves. Facts.
You'll get yourself stuck up a tree if you don't keep the context straight. None of us have the time to sit around and observe evolution in action. We just analyze what is around us and calculate probability. If you phrase Evolution science any other way, you'll just waste time on other people's stupid debate tactics.

I'd rather ignore the trolls by encouraging thoughtful comments. I'm not interested in taking a victory lap around the city walls for skewering a troll.

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