Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#71558 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I have hidden powers that I know. LOL!
Well.... try to avoid spandex and capes. Just a suggestion.:)

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71559 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>of course God would be invisible...in essence, he is spiritual in nature.
Then he can be both. Here is the Bible passages that tend to show he can be visible.

Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....

Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.

Genesis 26:2-24
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.(v.2)
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.(v.24)

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.

Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.

Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....

Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:11-23
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.(v.11)
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.(v.23)

Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.

Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.

Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.(v.1)
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(v.5)

Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....

Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.

Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.

Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.

Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71560 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>Yes and no. What makes you think he's NOT invisible?
Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....

Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.

Genesis 26:2-24
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.(v.2)
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.(v.24)

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.

Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.

Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....

Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:11-23
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.(v.11)
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.(v.23)

Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.

Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.

Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.(v.1)
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(v.5)

Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....

Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.

Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.
Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.

Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71561 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
Well.... try to avoid spandex and capes. Just a suggestion.:)
pah-lease no way!

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71562 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>That still doesn't really dismiss the idea of what you call "macro" evolution. The probability of witnessing a major phylum or class of species in the making is highly improbable for any species.

The existing biosphere is already filled with aggressively competitive species. It would likely take a major extinction event to allow new classes, such as birds, to propagate to the point of being regarded as a new class. If it weren't for the fact that the rest of the dinosaurs are extinct, due to an extinction event, they might still not be classified that way.
Yes you are correct it doesn't disprove Macroevolution. But maybe you can understand why (many) Christian, Jewish, and Islam faiths do not except macro evolution as to have ever happened. While it may seem trivial the word Kind vs species the word Kind has been around and used long before species. And what science now claims as a new species does not align with the Biblical definition of Kind is. We see it as a Modern word game to help support evolution.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71563 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Then he can be both. Here is the Bible passages that tend to show he can be visible.
Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....
Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.
Genesis 26:2-24
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.(v.2)
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.(v.24)
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.
Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.
Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.
Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....
Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11-23
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.(v.11)
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.(v.23)
Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.
Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.
Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.(v.1)
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(v.5)
Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....
Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.
Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.
Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.
Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
I did say in essence...lol
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#71564 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes you are correct it doesn't disprove Macroevolution. But maybe you can understand why (many) Christian, Jewish, and Islam faiths do not except macro evolution as to have ever happened. While it may seem trivial the word Kind vs species the word Kind has been around and used long before species. And what science now claims as a new species does not align with the Biblical definition of Kind is. We see it as a Modern word game to help support evolution.
Sounds improbable to me. I doubt the word was coined to refute scripture. Personally, I don't see the idea as being very essential to evolutionary theory. Mutation occurs and is passed on at the individual level, period!

The idea of a "macro" evolutionary strategy is flawed. It's like saying that the predecessors of birds decided to take several steps to become birds. That doesn't happen. What does happen is that environmental conditions occur that allow a species to bridge a gap between their old niche and a new one. Without those conditions, no birds would happen.

I don't know if it's your interpretation or the logic that is flawed, but I won't defend it.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Bay of Fundy

#71565 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
The thing is you have zero proof of Macro evolution. As far a micro evolution no big deal there, so some genes get turn on or off. Big deal.
Not one fossil proves Macro evolution
Not once has it been observed.
Never in the history of the planet has macro evolution left behind a bit of proof that it ever happened.
You write:
"The thing is you have zero proof of Macro evolution. As far a micro evolution no big deal"

That's OK, you have absolutely zero proof that your god exists.

You write:
"Not one fossil proves Macro evolution
Not once has it been observed."

So what? You guys took 300 years to produce your Bible and decide on your dogma. Some things take time.

You write:
"Never in the history of the planet has macro evolution left behind a bit of proof that it ever happened."

Maybe we haven't found it yet...see the point above.

Not having an example of macro evolution to toss around yet, means absolutely nothing at this point in time.

We have PLENTY of proofs for evolution....where is your proof of your god?? I don't think you have any.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71566 Jan 21, 2013
Thomas Robertson wrote:
Letís apply the xxxooxxx test right here.
Have the Creationists on this forum been more respectful than the Evolutionists?
Have the Creationists argued more intelligently than the Evolutionists?
Have the Creationists been better listeners than the Evolutionists?
( and mostly the only reason I went the way I did on that, is Evolutionists seems to think that their homosexuality has some basis on the topic...like three pages of it....the last time I was here...it is very offending to some....there are threads that cover such topics...)

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71567 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
if there was irrefutable evidence that supported the idea of an intelligence behind the Universe would you believe?
And as I have answered each and every time I have been asked such a question:

Yes.
xxxooxxx wrote:
The answer was an honest no
Not from me.
xxxooxxx wrote:
so in all honesty, asking for "evidence" is really kinda of mute...don't you think?
Assuming you intended the very different word "moot", my answer to your question is "no".

So, how are you coming with producing that "irrefutable evidence"?

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71570 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
You owe everyone an apology for shanghaiing the discussion...
Says the guy who willingly participated in the aforementioned discussion.
anonymous wrote:
Meanwhile, I intend to further discuss Evolution vs. Creationism
Great! But you're not doing it in this exchange, so you're not doing very well in living up to your own claimed intentions.
anonymous wrote:
don't parse out peoples comments in an effort to wear them down with trivial clarifications on things that only matter to your pro-gay mythology
You mean, my statistical-based (which is quite real, and not myth) argument for equal rights for gays.
anonymous wrote:
...which is NOT nor has ever been a part of Evolution.
Homosexuality isn't part of evolution? Then you must be claiming that humans aren't part of evolution, since homosexuality has been part of humanity for all of recorded history.

But since humans *are* part of evolution, then all of their behaviors are, too. So you're obviously wrong.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71571 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
personal experience and observation
Personal experience/observation doesn't count as evidence toward the existence of anything, if it can't be made objective.

Or did you not realize that you've identified no way to distinguish between wishful thinking and reality?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71572 Jan 21, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Link please?
http://www.mcremo.com/lectures.html

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71573 Jan 21, 2013
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
And as I have answered each and every time I have been asked such a question:
Yes.
<quoted text>
Not from me.
<quoted text>
Assuming you intended the very different word "moot", my answer to your question is "no".
So, how are you coming with producing that "irrefutable evidence"?
Then describe your criteria irrefutable evidence...

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71574 Jan 21, 2013
(Then describe your criteria for irrefutable evidence...)

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71575 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
The Bible contains about 2500 prophesy of which 2000 have been fulfilled. You can google that.
I have. None of those can be identified as unambiguous prophecies that aren't either (1) twisted to fit a scenario or (2) made into a self-fulfilling prophecy.(Or the ones that are flat-out wrong.)
Langoliers wrote:
Look at the dating method BC "Before Christ" AD "in the year of our Lord"
You mean the dating that is increasingly written as "BCE" and CE"?

By the way, should we conclude that people believe that Thor and Woden and the other Norse gods were real because we have days named Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday?

Heck, even Jews that don't use "BC" and "AD" have no problem in using those words to refer to those days of the week.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71576 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
Have the Creationists on this forum been more respectful than the Evolutionists?
I think so.
Have the Creationists argued more intelligently than the Evolutionists?
I think so.
Have the Creationists been better listeners than the Evolutionists?
If that implies a change in mindset...I would think not.
Are you an unbiased observer?

I don't think so.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#71577 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
Then describe your criteria irrefutable evidence
Relevant, objective, and unambiguous evidence.

When the evidence meets those criteria, the evidence can be presented, and it can be seen whether or not the evidence can be refuted.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71578 Jan 21, 2013
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Personal experience/observation/observa tion doesn't count as evidence toward the existence of anything, if it can't be made objective.
Or did you not realize that you've identified no way to distinguish between wishful thinking and reality?
so speaking from your own Personal experience and observations, you have determine that Personal experience/observation has to objective....ok:O)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71579 Jan 21, 2013
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you an unbiased observer?
I don't think so.
do you think of yourself, as a unbiased observer?

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