Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 216710 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

anonymous

Chagrin Falls, OH

#71546 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
So are you implying that if science didn't tell you that you existed, you would be in doubt?
I must say...you are dedicated.
Well, let's say that I don't need Descartes in order to think for myself.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71547 Jan 21, 2013
Thomas Robertson wrote:
Let’s apply the xxxooxxx test right here.
Have the Creationists on this forum been more respectful than the Evolutionists?
Have the Creationists argued more intelligently than the Evolutionists?
Have the Creationists been better listeners than the Evolutionists?
Have the Creationists on this forum been more respectful than the Evolutionists?

I think so.

Have the Creationists argued more intelligently than the Evolutionists?

I think so.

Have the Creationists been better listeners than the Evolutionists?

If that implies a change in mindset...I would think not.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71548 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Pretty impressive you claiming to know more then the Evolution Team at Berkeley.
No I'm not claiming anything.

What if macro-evolution is a continuation of micro-evolution, for millions of generations?

Langoliers

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71549 Jan 21, 2013
Thomas Robertson wrote:
I’m accustomed to trying to instruct Creationists on Evolution, but I never thought I’d ever had to instruct a Creationist on Creationism,

The Dude wrote:
If the Ark story is true then "MACRO"-evolution definitely DID happen

Langooliers wrote:
No sorry I have to burst your bubble.

That’s not The Dude’s bubble, that’s a Creationist bubble.
It has just been presented right here on this forum—and by a Creationist, no less.
In 1941, Frank L. Marsh recognized that it would be an impossible task for Noah and his seven trusty crewmen to take all one million species on board and keep them all fed.
So Marsh invented a new model which he called “baraminology.”
This model by-passes all that intellectual tedium about phylums and genuses and species, and instead classifies all animals as “kinds.”
He couldn’t translate the word “kind” into Latin, because the Latin equivalent has already been taken with the word “species.”
So he translated it into Hebrew instead.

Today, Duane Gish embraces that concept, also calling it “basic kind” or “Genesis kind.”

Langoliers wrote:
Macro evolution is one "Kind of animal or plant completely changing to another Kind" there is no proof of this ever happening.

You mean you’re going to make Noah’s family feed all 35 species of dogs, all 850 species of bats, and all 280,000 species of worms? That’s cruel of you!
Tommy that's so funny! What a card you are.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71550 Jan 21, 2013
and I might add...that the votes are in on the first post of this forum.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71551 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, if that isn't anything your parents can take credit for, it does sound like a possible angle for attention. What the cynic and the scientist would both probably ask is "What makes YOU so special?" If we all aren't privy to your perceptions, why so? And what would you have to gain by sharing your patchwork experiences?
What makes me special is something I don't understand.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71552 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Is this a new concept for you?
of course God would be invisible...in essence, he is spiritual in nature.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71553 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Is this a new concept for you?
Yes and no. What makes you think he's NOT invisible?
anonymous

Chagrin Falls, OH

#71554 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Created kinds are organisms that are defined by creation biology as sharing a common ancestry. The phrase refers to the Genesis account of the creation week during which God created many kinds of plants and animals. They are also referred to as "original kinds," "Genesis kinds," and more formally by creation scientists as baramin The term barmin was coined in 1941 by Frank Marsh from the Hebrew words bara (create) and min (kind). The study of baramin (known as Baraminology) is a rapidly growing field of creation science involved with the identification of the created kinds.[1]
The concept of the "created kind" originates from the biblical book of Genesis where it is first mentioned in chapter 1.
"The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a third day... Then God said,'Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.' God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying,'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.' There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. Then God said,'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind'; and it was so."Genesis 1:12-24
In contrast to the evolutionary principle of common ancestry, creation biologists argue that organisms were created in a finite number of discrete forms as described in the Bible, which subsequently diversified through speciation and microevolution. There is much uncertainty about what exactly the Bible means when it talks of "kinds".
That still doesn't really dismiss the idea of what you call "macro" evolution. The probability of witnessing a major phylum or class of species in the making is highly improbable for any species.

The existing biosphere is already filled with aggressively competitive species. It would likely take a major extinction event to allow new classes, such as birds, to propagate to the point of being regarded as a new class. If it weren't for the fact that the rest of the dinosaurs are extinct, due to an extinction event, they might still not be classified that way.
anonymous

Chagrin Falls, OH

#71555 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
What makes me special is something I don't understand.
Umm...not really giving the idea much for anyone think about, eh?:)

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71556 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
Umm...not really giving the idea much for anyone think about, eh?:)
I have hidden powers that I know. LOL!

Langoliers

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71557 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>No I'm not claiming anything.

What if macro-evolution is a continuation of micro-evolution, for millions of generations?
Cybele:
"The definition of micro and macro-evolution from that link is incorrect or misused. lol"

That link was Berkeley's evolution teams web page.
anonymous

Chagrin Falls, OH

#71558 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I have hidden powers that I know. LOL!
Well.... try to avoid spandex and capes. Just a suggestion.:)

Langoliers

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71559 Jan 21, 2013
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>of course God would be invisible...in essence, he is spiritual in nature.
Then he can be both. Here is the Bible passages that tend to show he can be visible.

Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....

Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.

Genesis 26:2-24
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.(v.2)
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.(v.24)

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.

Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.

Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....

Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:11-23
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.(v.11)
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.(v.23)

Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.

Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.

Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.(v.1)
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(v.5)

Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....

Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.

Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.

Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.

Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Langoliers

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71560 Jan 21, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>Yes and no. What makes you think he's NOT invisible?
Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....

Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.

Genesis 26:2-24
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.(v.2)
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.(v.24)

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.

Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.

Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....

Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:11-23
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.(v.11)
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.(v.23)

Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.

Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.

Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.(v.1)
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(v.5)

Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....

Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.

Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.
Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.

Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#71561 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
Well.... try to avoid spandex and capes. Just a suggestion.:)
pah-lease no way!

Langoliers

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#71562 Jan 21, 2013
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>That still doesn't really dismiss the idea of what you call "macro" evolution. The probability of witnessing a major phylum or class of species in the making is highly improbable for any species.

The existing biosphere is already filled with aggressively competitive species. It would likely take a major extinction event to allow new classes, such as birds, to propagate to the point of being regarded as a new class. If it weren't for the fact that the rest of the dinosaurs are extinct, due to an extinction event, they might still not be classified that way.
Yes you are correct it doesn't disprove Macroevolution. But maybe you can understand why (many) Christian, Jewish, and Islam faiths do not except macro evolution as to have ever happened. While it may seem trivial the word Kind vs species the word Kind has been around and used long before species. And what science now claims as a new species does not align with the Biblical definition of Kind is. We see it as a Modern word game to help support evolution.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#71563 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Then he can be both. Here is the Bible passages that tend to show he can be visible.
Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....
Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.
Genesis 26:2-24
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.(v.2)
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.(v.24)
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.
Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.
Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.
Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....
Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11-23
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.(v.11)
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.(v.23)
Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.
Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.
Isaiah 6:1-5
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.(v.1)
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(v.5)
Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....
Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.
Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.
Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.
Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
I did say in essence...lol
anonymous

Chagrin Falls, OH

#71564 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes you are correct it doesn't disprove Macroevolution. But maybe you can understand why (many) Christian, Jewish, and Islam faiths do not except macro evolution as to have ever happened. While it may seem trivial the word Kind vs species the word Kind has been around and used long before species. And what science now claims as a new species does not align with the Biblical definition of Kind is. We see it as a Modern word game to help support evolution.
Sounds improbable to me. I doubt the word was coined to refute scripture. Personally, I don't see the idea as being very essential to evolutionary theory. Mutation occurs and is passed on at the individual level, period!

The idea of a "macro" evolutionary strategy is flawed. It's like saying that the predecessors of birds decided to take several steps to become birds. That doesn't happen. What does happen is that environmental conditions occur that allow a species to bridge a gap between their old niche and a new one. Without those conditions, no birds would happen.

I don't know if it's your interpretation or the logic that is flawed, but I won't defend it.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#71565 Jan 21, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
The thing is you have zero proof of Macro evolution. As far a micro evolution no big deal there, so some genes get turn on or off. Big deal.
Not one fossil proves Macro evolution
Not once has it been observed.
Never in the history of the planet has macro evolution left behind a bit of proof that it ever happened.
You write:
"The thing is you have zero proof of Macro evolution. As far a micro evolution no big deal"

That's OK, you have absolutely zero proof that your god exists.

You write:
"Not one fossil proves Macro evolution
Not once has it been observed."

So what? You guys took 300 years to produce your Bible and decide on your dogma. Some things take time.

You write:
"Never in the history of the planet has macro evolution left behind a bit of proof that it ever happened."

Maybe we haven't found it yet...see the point above.

Not having an example of macro evolution to toss around yet, means absolutely nothing at this point in time.

We have PLENTY of proofs for evolution....where is your proof of your god?? I don't think you have any.

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