Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.
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66,901 - 66,920 of 112,846 Comments Last updated 14 min ago

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#71149
Jan 16, 2013
 
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
Because this is a public forum, I can call it a litmus test and that is what it is. However, you are confirming my observations that minorities don't tend to support gay marriage. It's because the topic trivializes real rights issues.
But don't believe me. Just don't ask questions about litmus tests if you're just acting out your choreography and the point couldn't be made more clearly yet never get through to you.
You screwed up and you ducked. Bad form and a loss right off the start.

How does the quest for gay rights trivialize anyone else' quest? Gay people have rights too, even though you may not think so. When idiots say idiotic things I tend to try to see if they can defend them, they practically never can. Thanks for showing that you cannot defend your idiotic claims.

“what we think we become”

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#71150
Jan 16, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
First, I don't like the trivialization of real liberalism, and I don't like the Democratic party litmus test.
Second, you ask "Why are you so opposed to the concept?" What was that concept? Allowing other to engage in gay marriage, or your own sub-conscious (or conscious)effort to dominate the discussion with an invasion of my personal space?
Freudian slip or is that cigar just a cigar? Hmmmm..... hmmmmmm!
Do you hate the Amish Mafia too?

“I have upset the hand of god”

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#71151
Jan 16, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but if you're referring to the kids who ride the short bus to special ed classes, I did grow up with one. Do you think that's funny?
No, I think it is terribly sad that someone had to grow up with you.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

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#71152
Jan 16, 2013
 
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>When you say "animal sex" are you talking about sex between humans and animals, sex between animal and animal or really awesome sex?
Yea, OK. I mean sex between humans and animals. I'm not familiar with what word they'd use for that in a court of law. Is that important?

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#71153
Jan 16, 2013
 
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but if you're referring to the kids who ride the short bus to special ed classes, I did grow up with one. Do you think that's funny?
Then you should know better than to write as if you were on that bus.

A little more thought, a little more consideration for others.

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#71154
Jan 16, 2013
 
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I find one of them to be funny. lol
"practice for heterosexual copulation"
Vasey didn't come up with that one, or most of the others. He criticizes some of them.

But, yeah, that one has some bearing - large brained animals have to practice through play to become good at their skills. In some cultures, homosexual sex is a kind of play.

However, I find the increasing bonds between individuals more compelling.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

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#71155
Jan 16, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
2 percent of the population or so, a general contradiction of biology, let alone the improvised mechanics of gratification and you don't think deviant applies?
A relatively tiny percentage of the population have red hair. Does that make them "deviants"?

How is homosexuality a "contradiction" of biology? It occurs in nature.

I'm not aware of any mechanics of gratification that aren't also used by heterosexuals.

So no, I see nothing in your argument that supports a claim of "deviant". And therefore, I do see evidence that supports my claim that you're a homophobe.
anonymous wrote:
That "several" was actually TWO states, right? Just about the two smallest in the country?
That voted in favor of same-sex marriage? Make that *3*: Maine, Maryland, and Washington.

Washington is the 13th largest state.
Maryland is the 19th largest state.
Maine is the 41st largest state.

You're not very strong in geography, are you?

Maybe you need to spend more time studying geography and less time drooling on your keyboard engaged in homophobic rants.

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#71156
Jan 16, 2013
 
xxxooxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
and I should care about your homosexuality because...?
I'm just answering misconceptions about it, in terms of evolutionary theory. It doesn't make a difference to me if you don't care about any kind of sexuality. I couldn't care less if you're into all kinds of strange things or just like the missionary position between men and women. If you don't want to talk about that, let's change the subject.

My passion here is for knowledge and nothing else.

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#71157
Jan 16, 2013
 
xxxooxxx wrote:
and just how would homosexuality fit into the evolutionary scheme, other than population control?... when one of the most fundamental idea of evolution is the procreation of a species? In fact I would say that is unsupported more in the ideas of evolution, than any religion.
Until you realize that humans are sometimes raised from birth to adulthood by adults other than merely their biological parents. Imagine the biological benefit of having an additional parent (such as an unmarried uncle or aunt) around to help raise a child or one of their younger siblings.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

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#71158
Jan 16, 2013
 
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Once government has a power it practically never gives it up freely. Live in the real world, government is not going to get out of the marriage business. So why shouldn't gay people have the same rights in regard to their spouse as straight people?
Then you admit that it's about money.(ie: power) That's a good start. The problem is that you ARE giving up your rights in the name of social engineering. As a single person, I'd be giving up my rights to keep from being taxed even more prejudicially than I already am.

Good point! Let's keep our Libertarian freedoms!

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#71159
Jan 16, 2013
 
anonymous wrote:
If homosexuality is not a medical problem, why can't a civil union be as acceptable as marriage?
If homosexuality is not a medical problem, why isn't it acceptable for same-sex marriages to be recognized as legal marriage in the same way as opposite-sex marriage?

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#71160
Jan 16, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
Nothing about sexual preference should be part of law.
Which is why the law shouldn't care if the couple getting married are the same gender or opposite gender. If two adults want to marry, what difference should their gender make to the law?

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#71161
Jan 16, 2013
 
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>Yea, OK. I mean sex between humans and animals. I'm not familiar with what word they'd use for that in a court of law. Is that important?
Bestiality comes to mind. Yeah, because you could have meant one of three different things here. You can do what you want about the first two, but I don't want anyone messing with that last one.

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#71162
Jan 16, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>Then you admit that it's about money.(ie: power) That's a good start. The problem is that you ARE giving up your rights in the name of social engineering. As a single person, I'd be giving up my rights to keep from being taxed even more prejudicially than I already am.
Good point! Let's keep our Libertarian freedoms!
Actually there is a marriage penalty for taxes, so you should want more people to be married in the eyes of the federal government. A married couple where both people work almost always pays slightly more than they would if they were single people filing separately. And I am trying to get the government out of social engineering by not treating one group differently from other groups.

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#71163
Jan 16, 2013
 

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anonymous wrote:
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No, you're going to go on avoiding that simple evolutionary observation that homosexuality does not produce offspring.
The rest can be described as learned behavior, but as with our baboon friends, herd cohesion is absolutely essential to the survival strategy of a species that must survive on land and defend itself from predators rather than flee to the trees.
You missed my wording when I said "passive". Nobody said the bonobos were lazy. I said they weren't fighters. You're not looking at the the debate without bias. You're confused. You're not ready to defend your pack as part of the group. My observation is that your personal point of view is not shared with the majority and even though I spell it out, you'll probably go back to your mythology. With that, you're inclined to repetitive rituals, maybe even obsessive-compulsive behavior.
So you want me to read books and fence with the bonobos using fancy Latin words? Nah. Not today.
It seems impossible to get through to you on this one. Same sex sexual behavior is not about reproduction. Most sex is not about reproduction. The evolution of SSSB did not happen because it produced babies, but because it led to greater social cohesion, social bonding, through those individuals who engaged in it (in some species and not others).

You made a bunch of false claims about baboons. You're slightly off about bonobos, but not wholly incorrect. They do, in fact, engage in aggression - just not lethal aggression.

"Bonobo society characteristics:(Kano 1992, 1996)(de Waal 1995, 1997):
Form larger parties biased towards females
Males show dominance relations among themselves with less aggression than shown by chimpanzees
Aggression by males towards females less than seen in chimpanzees."

and

"Males are rarely submissive to young females, but always behave submissively to a group the female aggregate.
Captive female bonobos at Planckendael animal park in Belgium (in a naturalistic setting) banded together to chase away harassing males; allied females could "outcompete" individual males who were larger or stronger.
A similar pattern of female dominated society observed by Furuichi at Wamba in the Congo Basin where males surrendered feeding positions when females appeared.
In captive bonobo populations as well as the wild, females may form alliances in order to attack males.(Stevens et al 2008)
Attacks can be quite fierce, resulting in injuries but not death"

from:
http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/bon...

And bonobos will hunt:

"Don't be fooled by their reputation for altruism and free love - bonobos hunt and kill monkeys just like their more vicious chimpanzees cousins, according to new research.

"Bonobos are merciless," says Gottfried Hohmann, a behavioural ecologist at Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. He witnessed several monkey hunts among bonobos living in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and says, "they catch it and start eating it. They don't bother to kill it"."

from:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14926-l...

So...what's with the projected ad hominem attacks? You come across as insecure when you resort to attacking my character while failing to back up your claims with scientific research - even though you asked me to provide it for you. Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? Doesn't make for strong argument, either, since you're just presenting opinion and claiming that science holds it.

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#71164
Jan 16, 2013
 
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
It's politics because you want to it to be a political issue. It's also science but you want to ignore the facts.
I don't care about gay marriage or civil unions, but they should be given a choice just like straight people. Just live them alone and focus on your own sexuality for a change.
Well said, Cybele.

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#71165
Jan 16, 2013
 
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
If homosexuality is not a medical problem, why isn't it acceptable for same-sex marriages to be recognized as legal marriage in the same way as opposite-sex marriage?
Drew, this is the 21 Century isn't it. After reading the medical condition comment, I thought maybe we were back in the Dark Ages.

I believe that the APA removed homosexuality as a mental illness from the DSM in 1974. Someone can correct me on the date. But if that wise body of mental health practitioners doesn't consider it a medical issue, I can't support some laymen in doing the same. I wouldn't anyway, but it is nice to have medical authority on your side.

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#71166
Jan 16, 2013
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Vasey didn't come up with that one, or most of the others. He criticizes some of them.
But, yeah, that one has some bearing - large brained animals have to practice through play to become good at their skills. In some cultures, homosexual sex is a kind of play.
However, I find the increasing bonds between individuals more compelling.
it's play time! lol
anonymous

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#71167
Jan 16, 2013
 
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
A relatively tiny percentage of the population have red hair. Does that make them "deviants"?
How is homosexuality a "contradiction" of biology? It occurs in nature.
I'm not aware of any mechanics of gratification that aren't also used by heterosexuals.
So no, I see nothing in your argument that supports a claim of "deviant". And therefore, I do see evidence that supports my claim that you're a homophobe.
<quoted text>
That voted in favor of same-sex marriage? Make that *3*: Maine, Maryland, and Washington.
Washington is the 13th largest state.
Maryland is the 19th largest state.
Maine is the 41st largest state.
You're not very strong in geography, are you?
Maybe you need to spend more time studying geography and less time drooling on your keyboard engaged in homophobic rants.
Red hair is going to be red, no matter how you behave. That's no analogy.

As far as being in the minority is concerned, yes, you might call that deviant, but not in places like Ireland. Do you want to complain about the creation of the word "deviant" as a hate crime? THAT's what I call deviant!

OK, my bad. I googled for the states that voted for the change and only got the two. I'm surprised to think that Maryland has that high a population but it doesn't change much. 3 out of 50 states and, let's face it, the population centers are New York and California. No matter how you add the numbers, they don't represent a revolution.

Now, as far as unconventional methods of gratification are concerned, you can't win that one. You and your gang are already reduced to childish putdowns about licking windows and such. You can't dig yourself out of that hole.(ummm... don't get too imaginative with that metaphor!) I said "USE IT!" Yep! You used it! You're twisted up with contradictions of shame and pride.

THAT is what I call "deviant".

There's nothing homophobe about it. You're twisted up like a character from The Divine Comedy, but I'm not a Christian. How you get out of your hell is not my problem.

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#71168
Jan 16, 2013
 
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Meh. Like I said, it was years ago.
Is there a more current theory?
Honestly, there is no solid biological theory that explains homosexuality. However, good history, anthropology, sociology, primatology and evolutionary theory strongly suggest that the Western cultural constructions of homo/heterosexuality are not human universals, let alone universal.

Every culture has its "way of doing sex" and the meaning and significance that is attached to sex. Ancient Greece did it very differently than contemporary Western culture does, the West of 150 years ago was different, contemporary Japan differs - as do cultures around the world.

Anthropology makes a difference between "real" and "ideal" culture.

"Ideal" Western culture divides its sexuality into a binary - so individuals fall on one side or the other. I have no idea why any given individual would be gay or straight. But "real" people in Western culture aren't so black and white - there's people who claim the homosexual identity yet have sex with the opposite sex, those who claim the heterosexual identity yet have sex with the same sex, those who don't have sex, those who claim the bisexual identity and have sex with one, or both sexes, notions of bicurious and so on.

So human behavior is more flexible than "ideal" culture. So the human universal for sexual behavior is even more flexible.

Roughly 10% of Papua New Guinea tribes "know" that heterosexual sex is dangerous and unhealthy - they seek to avoid it at all costs. They have elaborate rituals for passing masculinity on to younger generations that I'll not write here :)(the Etoro is the most written about of these groups).

Some North American Native cultures had 3 and even 4 genders. These in-between genders could marry the same-sex (they were considered different genders, so cultural categories were not only sex-based). They were also thought to have different traits and qualities than the main genders.

Most Japanese "gei" men prefer not to use the label "homosexuality" since they do not adopt that sexual identity - coming out is not important, being gay at all times is not important. They just want to hang out with other men and have relationships with them - but they don't want to bring that into their work or family life.

There are many cultures that don't differentiate between gay and straight. When the WHO was making its rounds around the world to warn of HIV, the message was lost on these groups because they thought that "sex only happens between men and women. What happens between men and men is just play." So...they mistakenly thought they couldn't get HIV when engaging in sexual behavior between the same sex because for them, that behavior wasn't sex.

And more...so the Western binary works in this culture because of brain development through enculturation, but it doesn't make sense outside of Western culture - and therefore it is not surprising that biological explanations of homosexuality have turned up no evidence to support them.

To answer "why homosexuality?" we have to use history, anthropology, sociology, evolution and analyze the behavior at various levels of biology: phylogenetic explanations (evolutionary lineage), adaptive explanations (this mechanism solves what problems?), developmental explanations (enculturation, neuroscience, etc) and immediate explanations (motivation, desire, oxytocin, etc).

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