Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70583 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, you're mistaken. Lots of plants can create clones or sexually reproduce. They decide which to do based on the environmental conditions around them. In favorable conditions, clone. In poor conditions, sexually reproduce.
Some lizard species are 100% clones - no male offspring, only females. All daughters share 100% of their genes with their mother, minus mutation.
All identical twins are clones. There's about 8 primate species that only reproduce in twins - golden lion tamarins, for example.
I honestly wish people would learn more about biology before they make pretense to authoritative statements about it. It's just misleading behavior.
In case you're wondering, most social insects are not actually clones of each other.
Yes I've heard of plants and lizards that can clone itself through pathenogenesis. Other than that, no other animal species are known to have this ability.

A twin is different really because twins still have the DNA of both parents from sexual reproduction, not from cloning process.

Yah I don't know where someone here got the information that insects clone. lol

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70584 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Yaaay!
What other theories would you like to "confirm" after the fact, with your own guesses?
I'm not sure but something does interest me. I read somewhere that genetic mutations take place in the cloning process and that it could be lethal that's why clones die off. I can't stop but wonder why this happens and how it could be fixed! lol

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70585 Jan 11, 2013
Oh HidingFromYou lady, I think I have a theory that raises a question. Since our repair systems correct damage to DNA, are these repair systems that 'fail' during the cloning process? How do we strengthen our DNA repair systems so that lethal mutations can be avoided?

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70586 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I've heard of plants and lizards that can clone itself through pathenogenesis. Other than that, no other animal species are known to have this ability.
A twin is different really because twins still have the DNA of both parents from sexual reproduction, not from cloning process.
Yah I don't know where someone here got the information that insects clone. lol
- a lot of species reproduce via pathenogenesis - i.e., assexually (it's not limited to lizards and plants...)

- sure, twins aren't clones of their parents, but clones of each other

- all drone bees are clones...
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#70587 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
Yes I've heard of plants and lizards that can clone itself through pathenogenesis. Other than that, no other animal species are known to have this ability.
A twin is different really because twins still have the DNA of both parents from sexual reproduction, not from cloning process.
Doesn't matter.
Cybele wrote:
I'm not sure but something does interest me. I read somewhere that genetic mutations take place in the cloning process and that it could be lethal that's why clones die off. I can't stop but wonder why this happens and how it could be fixed! lol
Mutations also take place when twins are born naturally. Even idential twins can have a few DNA bases different.
Cybele wrote:
Oh HidingFromYou lady, I think I have a theory that raises a question. Since our repair systems correct damage to DNA, are these repair systems that 'fail' during the cloning process? How do we strengthen our DNA repair systems so that lethal mutations can be avoided?
We don't. The reason you have mutations not shared by either of your parents (even though you're not a twin) is because of mutation. This is a natural part of evolution. People will naturally end up with mutations no matter whether they reproduce naturally or are cloned. But attempting to stop the process of evolution is a bad idea. Without evolution doing what it does you would not be here.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#70588 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
- a lot of species reproduce via pathenogenesis - i.e., assexually (it's not limited to lizards and plants...)
- sure, twins aren't clones of their parents, but clones of each other
- all drone bees are clones...
Clarification

Mono-Zygotic twins begin their development from a single split egg and therefore with identical dna, clones of each other. Mutations through development account for the slight differences that can sometimes be observed

I have fraternal twins, not from the same egg and therefore not clones and actually as different as chalk and cheese

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#70589 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I've heard of plants and lizards that can clone itself through pathenogenesis. Other than that, no other animal species are known to have this ability.
A twin is different really because twins still have the DNA of both parents from sexual reproduction, not from cloning process.
Yah I don't know where someone here got the information that insects clone. lol
Phasmatodea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasmida

There are others.

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70590 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
Oh HidingFromYou lady, I think I have a theory that raises a question. Since our repair systems correct damage to DNA, are these repair systems that 'fail' during the cloning process? How do we strengthen our DNA repair systems so that lethal mutations can be avoided?
Wow, great question!

May I ask you one? Why don't you study this stuff in greater detail - you have good ideas, the answers are waitingforyou!

It's more complex than that. Humans - well, all animals - have mechanisms to detect deleterious mutations and abort developing fetuses.

Our DNA repairing mechanisms work when the entire system is functioning - in viable phenotypes. When the mutations are too severe, the developing organism self-destructs. Also, when the mutations are too severe, they interfere with the ability of the organism to function; so it dies.

Cloning doesn't quite work like that, though I'm sure those systems are operating, too. The main problems with cloning are lie in teleomere length, if I remember correctly. Teleomeres shorten every time a cell reproduces. When they get too short, cells are no longer viable, and you get cellular death, then organ failure. So in older animals, teleomeres are getting shorter - when you clone them, you've started with old teleomeres, giving the clone a limited lifespan.

I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I'm not super familiar with how cloning works. Part of the problem is where you choose your cell - depending on location, cells have only part of your genes active and most of your genome shut off. So, if you clone from the skin cells you're going to have different problems than if you clone from muscle or stem cells.

And, yes, you might have mutation, though I would guess that would be the rarest problem. The largest problems are the ones I mentioned above, plus that somatic cells are simply not chemically cued to reproduce as germline cells. So various parts of them fail in ways that I am not familiar with.

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70591 Jan 11, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Clarification
Mono-Zygotic twins begin their development from a single split egg and therefore with identical dna, clones of each other. Mutations through development account for the slight differences that can sometimes be observed
I have fraternal twins, not from the same egg and therefore not clones and actually as different as chalk and cheese
Yes. Add in environmental differences, such as chemical, nutritional, immune system and so on, gradients in the womb, and different environments after birth. Mutations after cell separation are probably the minor factor for differences, honestly.

For dizogotic twins, environment is what makes them similar, with genes and genetic-environment interaction making them different.

I'm sure you have fun with them!

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70592 Jan 11, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Phasmatodea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasmida
There are others.
Nice!

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70593 Jan 11, 2013
Is it safe to assume that perhaps a somatic cell or mitochondria of a zygote should be mixed in with the donor's ovum? That means, the donor will have to provide her egg and then be mixed with someone who will actually get pregnant to provide the somatic cell of her growing zygote? The reason being is that the zygote's cells are still fresh as oppose to somatic cell or DNA of an adult that has already undergone complex cell processes including mutations. This will prevent the clone from inheriting damaged cells. The zygote will come from someone else instead of the ovum donor. The idea is that the somatic cell will come from a zygote and an ovum from an adult egg donor. Does it sound unethical? Dolly the sheep had three mothers, the egg donor, the DNA of another, and the surrogate mother. She is not the identical twin of one donor and is genetically different from her.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70594 Jan 11, 2013
I didn't realize that my idea is a foursome! lol

Weird Science is weird.

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70595 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
Is it safe to assume that perhaps a somatic cell or mitochondria of a zygote should be mixed in with the donor's ovum? That means, the donor will have to provide her egg and then be mixed with someone who will actually get pregnant to provide the somatic cell of her growing zygote? The reason being is that the zygote's cells are still fresh as oppose to somatic cell or DNA of an adult that has already undergone complex cell processes including mutations. This will prevent the clone from inheriting damaged cells. The zygote will come from someone else instead of the ovum donor. The idea is that the somatic cell will come from a zygote and an ovum from an adult egg donor. Does it sound unethical? Dolly the sheep had three mothers, the egg donor, the DNA of another, and the surrogate mother. She is not the identical twin of one donor and is genetically different from her.
No. That's not safe to assume. You're basically oversimplifying and therefore on the wrong track. Good guesses for what you know, but not for what is known by biologists who study such things.

Honestly, you have great ideas, a wonderful imagination. Just read the literature on this stuff - you're already interested. I promise you that you will find answers, you'll be utterly amazed and it will change your world. And you may even come up with original ideas and make a genuine contribution.

The truism that I have learned about anything I thought I knew a little about, that I started to learn more about, was that I know nothing about almost everything. There is more to this world than I can imagine, than I can know - and, when you learn more about how cells reproduce, you will understand more than you can understand now.

And it will amaze you.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#70596 Jan 11, 2013
Christopher Keller wrote:
<quoted text>
A cloned human would be created for a specific purpose. A soldier. A basketball player. A musician.
For a given purpose by someone with power.
As a slave.
With 7 billion people and climbing, why do we need to clone to get slaves? Sure it could be doable, but does it make sense as a probable outcome.

“The strength of science is”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#70597 Jan 11, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Too many people have been watching too much bad sci-fi.
A human cloning gets you one human newborn. That is all.
No reason to treat it any differently from any other...
I agree. It would have to be raised the same as any child.

My future responses to the clone issue will just be copies of an original, previous response.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70598 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
No. That's not safe to assume. You're basically oversimplifying and therefore on the wrong track. Good guesses for what you know, but not for what is known by biologists who study such things.
Honestly, you have great ideas, a wonderful imagination. Just read the literature on this stuff - you're already interested. I promise you that you will find answers, you'll be utterly amazed and it will change your world. And you may even come up with original ideas and make a genuine contribution.
The truism that I have learned about anything I thought I knew a little about, that I started to learn more about, was that I know nothing about almost everything. There is more to this world than I can imagine, than I can know - and, when you learn more about how cells reproduce, you will understand more than you can understand now.
And it will amaze you.
I agree. I just realized that getting the somatic cell of a zygote is impossible. If possible, it has to be an embryo or fetus. But that just poses ethical problems. lol

But anyway, I will get more info. You're right I am already interested. I have been interested in human cloning that started ten years ago in college when I did my persuasion speech/presentation in human cloning. I got an A on that! ;-)

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#70599 Jan 11, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I agree. It would have to be raised the same as any child.
My future responses to the clone issue will just be copies of an original, previous response.
Hehehe.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#70600 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. I just realized that getting the somatic cell of a zygote is impossible. If possible, it has to be an embryo or fetus. But that just poses ethical problems. lol
But anyway, I will get more info. You're right I am already interested. I have been interested in human cloning that started ten years ago in college when I did my persuasion speech/presentation in human cloning. I got an A on that! ;-)
Interesting. I did mine on population growth based on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_to_growth

I got an A as well.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70601 Jan 11, 2013
Is anyone interested in being a donor of somatic cells that contain your DNA besides me?

I ask myself, why would scientists want my DNA?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70602 Jan 11, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting. I did mine on population growth based on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_to_growth
I got an A as well.
What was the premise that led to your conclusion?

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