Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#68452 Dec 29, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
What's your source for your assertions? I speak from direct experience. Again, I'm not the normal gal next door. There's a whole lot going on in this head of mine. Must've been indirectly programmed by more knowledgeable people through a 56 inch extra-dimensional space we call the idiot box. It can be quite educational and entertaining.
But on that note, I did have special experience with animals. Have you had any connection with them?
"I speak from direct experience" ... because personal testimony has always demonstrated to be reliable./sarcasm

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#68453 Dec 29, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
You really need to learn more about psychology. We are all animals with the same instincts unless you're made of candle wax. You really need that flame to get enlightened.
Stop accusing me of justifying these heinous crimes. I just happen to 'understand' what drives humans to do certain things. comprende?
So now you are saying we shouldn't advance or even try to be better than the other animals at all, as well as still justifying horrible actions, including genocide, rape, murder, child abuse, and a slew of other things any sane person would find repulsive, no matter the reason.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#68454 Dec 29, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
What is this "symbolic" garbage?
"intelligence is isomorphic with a physical system that manipulates symbols"

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#68455 Dec 29, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
"I speak from direct experience" ... because personal testimony has always demonstrated to be reliable./sarcasm
It works for me in my world.

Having problem with your kitten?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#68456 Dec 29, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
So now you are saying we shouldn't advance or even try to be better than the other animals at all, as well as still justifying horrible actions, including genocide, rape, murder, child abuse, and a slew of other things any sane person would find repulsive, no matter the reason.
With your logic, cops should be locking up corrupt politicians. who did you vote for if you don't mind me asking?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#68457 Dec 29, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
So now you are saying we shouldn't advance or even try to be better than the other animals at all
We co-evolved remember me saying that? Doesn't evolving include improvement and advancement even if it's not always the case? No species is an island. How will that species survive without the other? It's symbiosis. We are all part of a network. Why do you think we are saving endangered species? Why we are exporting bees?

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#68458 Dec 29, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
With your logic, cops should be locking up corrupt politicians. who did you vote for if you don't mind me asking?
Cops should be locking up corrupt politicians, and the people who voted for them as well.

“Right click Left click Yay!”

Level 7

Since: Dec 10

Nehwon

#68459 Dec 29, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't say that science had any specific ethics, but that the scientific method is the best option for determining more sane and valid ethical behavior. The "golden rule" is anything but, as it also endorses inequality and evades responsibility, and it wasn't brought to us by religion, it's an innate logical conclusion which was an evolutionary benefit at the time. It's outdated, and we know that now because of the scientific method.
The scientific method wasn't developed for what we even use it for. Originally it was developed to weed out the scam "miracles," which the Catholic church claimed authority over, of course they have failed to find any genuine miracles, but what did you expect? We found it was beneficial in other areas of life, so we started applying the method to other areas of life, and it has never let us down as it leads us answers in all situations. You can thank religious skeptics for the great tool we have now, but they were, and are, still skeptics not blind followers of any sort.
"I didn't say that science had any specific ethics, but that the scientific method is the best option for determining more sane and valid ethical behavior."

So ethics derives from scientific endeavor? Not sure if I could agree with that. Science gives us more information to make a better judgement in a course of action.

But science is very much neutral in how that information is obtained. What we consider basic ethics in testing with humans invokes the Golden Rule.

Don't get me wrong here: the scientific methodology is an extraordinary tool to filter out the wannabe prophets of miracles for their profits.

I just don't want to see science seen as a religion and researchers become unquestioning cardinals of knowledge.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#68460 Dec 29, 2012
greymouser wrote:
<quoted text>
"I didn't say that science had any specific ethics, but that the scientific method is the best option for determining more sane and valid ethical behavior."
So ethics derives from scientific endeavor? Not sure if I could agree with that. Science gives us more information to make a better judgement in a course of action.
But science is very much neutral in how that information is obtained. What we consider basic ethics in testing with humans invokes the Golden Rule.
Don't get me wrong here: the scientific methodology is an extraordinary tool to filter out the wannabe prophets of miracles for their profits.
I just don't want to see science seen as a religion and researchers become unquestioning cardinals of knowledge.
Please do not tell me you are conflating science with an actual "entity" and the scientific method with some "law." The scientific method is a standard, a procedure, for weeding out fallacious claims of any sort, as for you "I don't want it see as a religion" part, well, it comes from a religious group who were attempting to do just that, weed out the fallacious claims. People use the scientific method a lot more than they ever realize, the more intelligent the person, the more often they use the method. When you look at the labels on the food products, consider the prices and quality, and compare them to other brands ... that is the scientific method. Since ethics itself is entirely subjective, morals are a made up canard, ethical behavior determined by just "feelings" has proven less than adequate in almost all instances, but ethical behavior with the scientific method applied has always been consistent and always progresses for the better. Ethics is not a religious thing, it's an evolutionary trait and nothing more. There is no magic involved, it's not some "spiritual" garbage, it's simply how you regard other humans, very mundane and probably the least interesting aspect of human behavior as a whole.

“Right click Left click Yay!”

Level 7

Since: Dec 10

Nehwon

#68461 Dec 29, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Please do not tell me you are conflating science with an actual "entity" and the scientific method with some "law." The scientific method is a standard, a procedure, for weeding out fallacious claims of any sort, as for you "I don't want it see as a religion" part, well, it comes from a religious group who were attempting to do just that, weed out the fallacious claims. People use the scientific method a lot more than they ever realize, the more intelligent the person, the more often they use the method. When you look at the labels on the food products, consider the prices and quality, and compare them to other brands ... that is the scientific method. Since ethics itself is entirely subjective, morals are a made up canard, ethical behavior determined by just "feelings" has proven less than adequate in almost all instances, but ethical behavior with the scientific method applied has always been consistent and always progresses for the better. Ethics is not a religious thing, it's an evolutionary trait and nothing more. There is no magic involved, it's not some "spiritual" garbage, it's simply how you regard other humans, very mundane and probably the least interesting aspect of human behavior as a whole.
So you have no problem with Dr. Mengele's research into twins or hypothermia on unwilling subjects?

Will you pull the "He's not a True Scotsman!" defense?

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#68462 Dec 29, 2012
greymouser wrote:
<quoted text>
So you have no problem with Dr. Mengele's research into twins or hypothermia on unwilling subjects?
Will you pull the "He's not a True Scotsman!" defense?
He was following unethical behavior. His motives were entirely his own, and his methods betray that. Had he followed the informed consensus of ethical behavior, the way scientists follow the informed consensus on many aspects of their research, he would have known those were unacceptable behaviors because they harm other people.

Are you going to throw out anymore red herrings or strawmen?
Richard Robles

Horseheads, NY

#68463 Dec 29, 2012
The connecticut school shooter was an Atheist ... nuff said! The world would be a happier place without Islam and Atheism.

"Anders Behring Breivik was a practicing militant Darwinian Atheist racist. He believed secularism and science was the world's salvation, not Jesus Christ."

Anders Behring Breivik, Mass Murderer of Norway, was an Atheist Social Darwinist - NOT a Christian
http://cross.tv/69392

.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#68465 Dec 29, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting. What amazes me more is how the ancient people acquired knowledge of what symbolic meanings animals have. For example the deer - power animal symbolizes gentleness, unconditional love, and kindness. The Celtics and Native Americans prayed to the deer to give them good hunt. Perhaps because of this practice ingrained in early human hunters and gatherers, we developed an instinctive ability from our own associations with these game animals. Animals behave purely on instincts. And many animals possess traits that humans wish to have such as better hearing, night vision, agility, etc. Whatever made humans distinct from animals that possessed the ability to decipher symbolic meanings in animals, probably led to intelligence and heightened sensory perception. But that's just how I see it. We are all connected.
Perhaps we are to some degree, but humans don't have the senses of animals, even if they seek to emulate them. Deer are a particularly bad example of a metaphor of the human psyche, although if I were to speculate, I'd say the primary reason is because the human persona is based on binocular vision, while deer are animals who watch on all sides and flee from conflicts. Even though humans are not predators by their evolutionary nature, they share more in common with them, psychologically.

Being bipedal is another break away from most animals at a fundamental level. I'd have to say, even if one was hard-wired similar to an animal, the differences in anatomy would be significant enough to produce very different personalities.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#68466 Dec 29, 2012
Richard Robles wrote:
The connecticut school shooter was an Atheist ... nuff said! The world would be a happier place without Islam and Atheism.
"Anders Behring Breivik was a practicing militant Darwinian Atheist racist. He believed secularism and science was the world's salvation, not Jesus Christ."
Anders Behring Breivik, Mass Murderer of Norway, was an Atheist Social Darwinist - NOT a Christian
http://cross.tv/69392
.
The Spanish Inquisition were Christians. Nuff said!...and it seems that you're honest about your bigotry.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#68467 Dec 29, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> That is a dis-honest response, you can not.
Well, Leela says you're a numbskull and I tend to trust her opinion.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#68468 Dec 29, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
Again, why did the Romans and Greeks adopted the false religion according to you guys?
For the same reason that they adopted the false religions of the Greek and Roman gods.
FREE SERVANT

Bellevue, WA

#68469 Dec 29, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually in your case I'd call it UNbounded. Rationality requires boundaries. Otherwise one ends up like Mikey and being hit in the head and seeing images of Jesus in a meteorite as "evidence" of Jesus and not of brain damage.
OH BOY!!!! Hope you didn't get a lot of meteoric coal for Christmas***

“All things considered”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#68470 Dec 29, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Using the scientific method doesn't accurately help us assess what is objectively good or bad. What is good for one person can be bad for others. Unfortunately we can't avoid cultural bias. For example, some religions do not allow them to have blood transfusions even if it benefits them. They're willing to sacrifice their health to benefit their moral principles. And who's to say which is right or wrong, better or worse?
Objectivity has its own merits but impossible to apply without a universal system to allow it. And that what limits reality because each of us see reality differently. We are a diverse population. We are not clones of each other.
Even in the scientific community, for instance, there are competing theories for a given subject no matter each theory has attempted to use the scientific method.
So goodluck with that.
(Wow...I haven't been reading this thread for awhile, but I must say you are a breath of fresh air)

“All things considered”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#68471 Dec 29, 2012
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
The Spanish Inquisition were Christians. Nuff said!...and it seems that you're honest about your bigotry.
Apparently you science book thumpers fail to make the distinction between true Christians, and wolves in sheep's clothing.lol

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#68472 Dec 29, 2012
xxxooxxx wrote:
Apparently you science book thumpers fail to make the distinction between true Christians, and wolves in sheep's clothing
Ah, the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman

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