Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#65371 Dec 14, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
... that you have no substance.
<quoted text>
Except that there is no reason why an ERV marker should reproduce a retrovirus. That is, unless ERV's are in fact ERV's.
<quoted text>
Um, evolution data or Young Earth data? Is evolution falsifiable or non-falsifiable? TEH FALL giving us junk or 100% function? Science or Godmagic?
Keep on contradicting yourself Maz.
How simplistic ....and I am not a YEC. If they win the day, that is just a bonus.

Listen. Are you disputing the fact that 'ancient ervs' that link to common ancestry are based on extinct retrovirus that you cannot observe?

That is it. You don't have to gobble on about anything more.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65372 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
Again, I will clearly state, that your nested hierarchies can only be concocted on speculations and assumptions of what any extinct retrovirus looked like.
You cannot refute that because that is a fact.
And you cannot refute the fact that there is no reason that ERV protein makeup should result in a retrovirus if biologists were wrong.

You still can't tell us what an ERV is.
MazHere wrote:
Now don't you go off into philosophical evasion and your quackery about God.
I leave that to you fundies.
MazHere wrote:
If you think lifeless non intelligent elements can poof themselves into complex factories of reproduction you should have no problem believing a non organic intelligent life form could poof elements into a complex factory of reproduction on a larger scale.
I note you're not addressing me in favour of this caricature.
MazHere wrote:
After all, all the waffle around universal creation is based on coalescence theory.
Universal creation is irrelevant to biological evolution. Doesn't matter how life got here, you can magically poof it if you like. Life IS here. Life evolves. Facts. In order to demonstrate otherwise you need to demonstrate that life is in fact NOT here.

Should be easy, your Bible said it happened twice.(shrug)
MazHere wrote:
ERV nested hierarchies and those for anything are concocted fabrication based on many insertion values evos can only speculate about. Evos must speculate on what any ancestors genomic make up was. All you have to go on is what is here now and a few examples of older deteriorated dna.
I'm sorry, deteriorated DNA or 100% functional DNA? I have no idea anymore. YOU have no idea anymore. WON'T SOMEONE SAVE THIS POOR CREATIONISM THEORY?!?

:-(
MazHere wrote:
This really is not rocket science. It is just that evos present their findings as if they actually know what they are talking about. Evos make up their sand castles of speculative support and then call that evidence that only an idiot would not accept until it is blown away, just like they did with junk dna over 10 years ago.
Junk DNA is wrong? Or TEH FALL happened? How many times have we addressed the junk DNA thing now?
MazHere wrote:
That is why I call all your ancestry gobble 'algorithmic magic' and algorithmic magic is just what it is.
So there! Ya know you're still using a lot of words to admit that you're unable to present a coherent rebuttal or address all of your numerous problems that have been pointed out which destroy all of your concerns before you even get off the ground.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65373 Dec 14, 2012
TheDude, Phoenix is not from an old ERV, it is from a very recent one, as far as ERV's go.

The fact that we were able to reconstruct an ERV as a working virus shows that we are correct in calling them ERV's where V stands for virus. Mav has no real answer for this and never will.

Old ancestral ERV's, say once that we share with mice. which have been separated from us for who knows how many millions of years, 50 millions at least. have evolved so much that we can only tell they are ERV's buy their shape. Of course evolution predicts a whole range of ERV's from very fresh recent ones like Phoenix which can be reactivated to ones that we have no idea of what they originally were.

This difference is a problem for creationism. Why would there be any difference in ERV's with that paradigm? But none for the TOE. It is what is expected.

I pointed this out to Mav a couple of days ago at least and she kept missing it. Now she tries to bring up this positive point for evolution as if it were a negative. Of course that is her mental disability rising to the surface.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65374 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
Dude...The fall does not require junk dna. It requires a change in the function of dna on as small a scale as that of, say for example, radiation.
Evos need junk, or at least you lot thought you did once upon a time. Now I guess you have no idea and will just make it up as you go along.
It's not the function that's relevant to common ancestry, it's the pattern of inheritance. Do you know what happens with radiation poisoning? It mutates the DNA. And no, it's NOT a SMALL scale. It's a LARGE scale. We're all born with around 125-175 mutations as per normal as you know (in fact your figure was slightly higher). But we can handle that. We CAN'T handle radiation poisoning because it's mutation at a MUCH HIGHER RATE. Hence it causes us damage.

And sorry, if TEH FALL is resulting in a GENETIC LOSS (which is what your buddy Sanford thinks by the way) then you are gonna end up with what was once "100% functional" genes and stretches of DNA and end up with something that has been CHANGED BY DELETEROUS MUTATIONS. Ergo NOT 100% function.

You have no way out of this. Except for more Godmagic that is.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65375 Dec 14, 2012
Pete wrote:
<quoted text>The Big Bang is nonsense.......Its funny, the limits humans are born with...sensory limits, comprehension limits..Gods or Aliens? They have reached their space limit...Now, its all designed to save the rich when this rock starts to crumble.
We still don't care about your goddamm space aliens.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65376 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
How simplistic ....and I am not a YEC. If they win the day, that is just a bonus.
Listen. Are you disputing the fact that 'ancient ervs' that link to common ancestry are based on extinct retrovirus that you cannot observe?
That is it. You don't have to gobble on about anything more.
Actually this post shows for all practical purposes you are a YEC.

You have such a low level of science education that you think that they can make a case for themselves. The YEC age of the Earth was debunked at least 50 years before Darwin. And like evolution, the science supporting modern geology has only gotten stronger over time, never weaker.

Again, who knows what the ancient ERV's are. Right now we cannot identify them. That does not mean we will always be unable to find them. The fact that they are "scrambled" is predicted by evolution, not by creationism.

All you can do is to reinforce the fact that you are wrong when you argue Mav. I would suggest that you give up while you are behind.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65377 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
Listen Dude will you please stop quacking.
I have presented peer reviewed research that suggests the MRHCA is 5-7k ya. That is it. So Sush!.
Gee, lemme think about that for a min...

.

NO.

Suck it up, Mazzy.

First of all genetics that goes back millions of years does NOT support common ancestry going back to two humans and two humans ONLY at that period. Plus the research pointed out that contemporaries existed. Once again you are cherry-picking only the data you find theologically convenient. Look pal. If you're gonna do that then remember that Adam and Eve's kids reproduced with other people from dodgy lands who apparently came from nowhere, no real good explanation is given. This would have given you as much (purely hypothetical speculation of course) extra DNA that you need, without having to destroy humanity just a few hundred years after Adam and Eve. Okay, so you'd run into the same problem again with Noah and have to invoke more Jewmagic then, but...
MazHere wrote:
Anything more than that is speculation. That was in response to some goose going on about support for creation.
Except it's not speculation. The genetic evidence doesn't support it. The population records don't support it.
MazHere wrote:
I don't really care because I already know nothing I can present in support of creation could possibly be worse than the falsifications and instability you have to offer.
Ah, then you agree that your position is baseless BS. It's just that you personally think that your baseless BS is just as good as our baseless BS. Like I said, if that were true you may as well go home. You can't ever win. You have to invoke magic and we could do the same. Then it's a game of kids saying "Nyah nyah, my daddy could whup your daddy!" over and over.

Instead though I prefer to simply point to the evidence which demonstrates you are quite simply and irrevocably WRONG.

And have done.

That's why you've had to be as dishonest and hypocritical as you have been, and left so much unaddressed. And now you're at the point where you're just sticking your fingers in your ears.

I don't care, not my problem.(shrug)
MazHere wrote:
All the gobble you have just ranted about is just that, gobble. The fact that I can take your own gobble and smack you with it is just a plus.
The fact that your great fantastic gobble about ervs is based on concocted hierarchies of extinct retrovirus you have not observed is also a very convenient plus.
Blah blah, yeah we know you can't deal.(yawn)

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#65378 Dec 14, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
We still don't care about your goddamm space aliens.
Do you care that people (most likely the hippies) in Europe are climbing the upside down mountain (I believe it's the Bugarach)on doomsday? Does your pal here Subduction Zone have an explanation to its mystery? Does the TOE have an explanation?

The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65379 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
They were not successful at all and there still is no cure for aids. In fact some treatments have made the situation worse.
Who said I found a cure? I certainly didn't. That has nothing to do with it.
MazHere wrote:
You can quack and quack and quack and quack some more. Still you cannot hide from your evolutionary quackery when it comes to junk dna. My point 1 is established
How can it be established when we made a successful test that you have no alternative explanation for? All you can do is say that "It might not have been a retrovirus and you can't prove it!!!"

But you can't prove us wrong either. And we HAVE the advantage of demonstrating a successful hypothesis - the reconstruction of a retrovirus by using an ERV protein makeup - which you cannot explain and we can.

You still can't even tell us what an ERV is.
MazHere wrote:
and there is absolutlely nothing of substance you can offer to refute it.
So you keep claiming, but the evidence demonstrates otherwise.
MazHere wrote:
After all Aides deniers are evolutionists that are truley concerned that research is on the wrong track.
http://www.rethinkingaids.com/
Some AIDS deniers are evolutionists. Some are creationists. Both are still cranks. It's just that creationist AIDS deniers are doubly so.
MazHere wrote:
Indeed on my point 1, that creos made predictions and claims that are being validated as opposed to evos claims being falsified, is an undeniable fact you evos will need to suck up as much as you struggle with your pride.
What predictions are those? We've demonstrated ours. That an ERV makeup would lead to a retrovirus. You still can't tell us what an ERV is.
MazHere wrote:
That is it. You can go on and on and on and still the above claim will remain factual, and that does not depend on you liking it.
My liking it has nothing to do with it, it's what you can demonstrate that counts. We've demonstrated our claims. You haven't. In fact you've just even admitted that you can't demonstrate creationism and now you don't even care anyway. So all we're left with is evolution.

Something you haven't been able to deal with for weeks now.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65380 Dec 14, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you care that people (most likely the hippies) in Europe are climbing the upside down mountain (I believe it's the Bugarach)on doomsday? Does your pal here Subduction Zone have an explanation to its mystery? Does the TOE have an explanation?
Links to this please.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#65381 Dec 14, 2012
PROFESSOR X wrote:
Atheistic Scientists were Humiliated As Their Junk DNA Evolution Paradigm recently Collapsed
Anti-theistic scientists, Ken Miller, Ayala, Dawkins, Collins, Falk and other junk DNA proponents made failed observations about DNA, such that their Darwinian evolution paradigm has collapsed. Not that long ago, junk DNA was being defended as an important element of the Darwinian evolution paradigm ... The question now seems to be whether Ayala, Dawkins, Collins, Falk and other junk DNA proponents will continue to defend junk DNA, whatever they call it?- Rob Crowther,PhD
Evolutionary Biologist Richard Sternberg discusses modern genomics and the collapse of evolutionists junk DNA theory.
http://www.cross.tv/66770
Doubt Atheism & Question Darwinism
http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
.
Evolutionary Theory is nonsense;and,those who support it, know this for a fact.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65382 Dec 14, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you care that people (most likely the hippies) in Europe are climbing the upside down mountain (I believe it's the Bugarach)on doomsday? Does your pal here Subduction Zone have an explanation to its mystery? Does the TOE have an explanation?
Never mind, I Google searched it myself. Two words: Thrust Fault.

And that is a geology question not an evolution question.

“Topix most wanted”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Hands up.

#65383 Dec 14, 2012
I fish wrote:
<quoted text>
Genetics...can't be God. They were created by God. wrong answer. The enemy doesn't have the power to create ...he can only use what already exists to deceive people. C.S. Lewis said that.(sort of)
you take care too.
How do you know genes were created by God, Rose Tyler?

Are you trying to say the fossil record was created by Satan? Care to pull up the evidence for that?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65384 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
How simplistic ....and I am not a YEC. If they win the day, that is just a bonus.
BONG! Sorry Maz, too late. You've already invoked YEC apologetics a RIDICULOUS number of times. Given that it was not unreasonable to presume you are a YEC. So how do I know you're not lying again? Are you really not a YEC? You an OEC? Or one of those really daft ones who are "open-minded" over the age of the Earth?

Not that it matters to us much. YEC, OEC, "open-minded", they all have the same thing in common, and that is that they are all anti-science reality-denying liars for Jesus.

Your baseless religious beliefs are not important.(shrug)
MazHere wrote:
Listen. Are you disputing the fact that 'ancient ervs' that link to common ancestry are based on extinct retrovirus that you cannot observe?
Ah geez, Maz. You really using the "How do YOU know? Where you THERE?!?" argument? Pathetic. I know you're pished about us making a successful scientific test that you have no alternative explanation for because you can't even decide what the heck an ERV is anyway, but is that really an excuse to sink that low?

Meh, I guess so.

:-/
MazHere wrote:
That is it. You don't have to gobble on about anything more.
Translation - "STFU DUDE!!!"

I will take your request under advisement.

“Topix most wanted”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Hands up.

#65385 Dec 14, 2012
STEPHMAR wrote:
<quoted text>Evolutionary Theory is nonsense;and,those who support it, know this for a fact.
Thanks for that. I know the guys will be real sad when I let them know.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#65386 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Links to this please.
link to what? Someone from Europe told someone I know...LOL

I heard people there believe that aliens are coming out on doomsday and that they're climbing that upside down mountain because they think it's the safest place. talk about abduction zone. hehe.

BTW, why do upside down mountains exist?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#65387 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Never mind, I Google searched it myself. Two words: Thrust Fault.
And that is a geology question not an evolution question.
I did address them to you since you know about geology

“Topix most wanted”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Hands up.

#65388 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
How simplistic ....and I am not a YEC. If they win the day, that is just a bonus.
Listen. Are you disputing the fact that 'ancient ervs' that link to common ancestry are based on extinct retrovirus that you cannot observe?
That is it. You don't have to gobble on about anything more.
Win the day? Is this a raffle?

If grandma made bread and left the recipe behind, I don't have to see a loaf of her original bread to make that bread from the recipe. If I am not some anti-science lunatic and instead am a trained baker, making that bread come out like grandma's is a cinch.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65389 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
TheDude, Phoenix is not from an old ERV, it is from a very recent one, as far as ERV's go.
As ERV's go, but as we know from flu viruses for example viruses can evolve quite quickly. "Recent" ERV's are ones such as those we share with chimps, which will generally only show genetic drift comparable to that of the difference between the human genomes and chimp genomes as a whole, which is why they are (mostly) identical, as well as being orthologous. Maz's point therefore is that the virus responsible for an orthologous ERV from the LUCA of chimps and humans (approximately 6-7MYA) is probably no longer around anymore. Which may be correct. But as you point out:
Subduction Zone wrote:
The fact that we were able to reconstruct an ERV as a working virus shows that we are correct in calling them ERV's where V stands for virus. Mav has no real answer for this and never will.
Exactamundo. Hence Maz is rehashing the "How do you know where you there" argument in the face of evidence. Because an invisible magical Jew just MIGHT have done it differently because we weren't born then.

It convinces Russ and Cybele anyway.
Subduction Zone wrote:
Old ancestral ERV's, say once that we share with mice. which have been separated from us for who knows how many millions of years, 50 millions at least. have evolved so much that we can only tell they are ERV's buy their shape. Of course evolution predicts a whole range of ERV's from very fresh recent ones like Phoenix which can be reactivated to ones that we have no idea of what they originally were.
This difference is a problem for creationism. Why would there be any difference in ERV's with that paradigm? But none for the TOE. It is what is expected.
I pointed this out to Mav a couple of days ago at least and she kept missing it. Now she tries to bring up this positive point for evolution as if it were a negative. Of course that is her mental disability rising to the surface.
No disagreements there.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65390 Dec 14, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you care that people (most likely the hippies) in Europe are climbing the upside down mountain (I believe it's the Bugarach)on doomsday?
No.
Cybele wrote:
Does your pal here Subduction Zone have an explanation to its mystery? Does the TOE have an explanation?
Yes.

Natural selection.

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