Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#65309 Dec 14, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I think if you look more closely, you will see that creationist go out of their way to characterise people that accept the theory of evolution as atheist or against Christianity. Many of the science minded folks may have personal beliefs in God or a creator, they just recognize that such can not be proven. It is in the interest of the creationist/Biblical literalist to paint science, scientist and science oriented as atheistic because their real arguments are weak.
I haven't seen one here who's a theist evolutionist.

Even if I didn't follow Christian beliefs, I won't be too adamant to say that God does not exist as what most hostile evos here do.

“happy to be horny”

Level 2

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#65310 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
And so does the 2nd link to peer reviewed research you would like to ignore as an example of your total ignorance and evo flavours of the month.
Furthermore, Olson and his colleagues have found that if you go back a little farther about 5,000 to 7,000 years ago everybody living today has exactly the same set of ancestors.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201908,00 ...
http://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-t ...
read up on the Hapsburgs and what inbreeding can do and then get back to me on the the whole Adam and Eve idea........

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#65311 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Mav, quit flapping your waffle, we can smell it all the way over here. "ARTIFICIALLY" is not the key word. Once again, the TOE makes predictions that the entire genome would have evolved, not just parts of it. To counter that they broke down the genes and tried to find which genes (and remember though the ERV would have evolved too odds are against all genes having been changed) were the most common for each section. It only makes sense according to the TOE that those genes were most likely to be the original ones that the ERV had. And what backs up this claim? The fact that the ERV WORKED! as a virus again. According to blue waffled flappers the viruses are not viruses at all and nothing that they could have done in the lab would have made a virus.
You are in a no win situation for yourself here. Either they did reconstitute an ERV or they developed an entirely new form of life. Both are impossible according to creatards.
Listen buddy, will you get over yourself? If I took off an ivented my own anything to show how that supports creation, I would never hear the end of it, and neither will you.

Phoenix is a fraud. It is a computer reconstructed demonstration.

You are just goosing off. These evos have exchanged HOX genes between species. Is that a new form of life? Silly!

Phoenix is made up according to how they think it should be and what they presume it should look like.

You cannot refute that. That is a fact.

What you can do is choose to believe that this is a recon that has merit in some way. That is a belief based on faith no different to mine.

What you can't do is say that, Phoenix is not a reconstruction according to a preceived priori.

The other thing you can't do is answer what old erv's are more mutated away from?... given they are meant to show similarity to an extinct retrovirus evos have never seen and can only possibly speculate on according to computer modelling and an existing priori. That is a fact. You can have faith, but faith is all your beliefs are based on.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65312 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
And so does the 2nd link to peer reviewed research you would like to ignore as an example of your total ignorance and evo flavours of the month.
Furthermore, Olson and his colleagues have found that if you go back a little farther about 5,000 to 7,000 years ago everybody living today has exactly the same set of ancestors.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201908,00 ...
http://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Papers/Rohde-MRCA-t ...
Bad links O Great One.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65313 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Listen buddy, will you get over yourself? If I took off an ivented my own anything to show how that supports creation, I would never hear the end of it, and neither will you.
Phoenix is a fraud. It is a computer reconstructed demonstration.
You are just goosing off. These evos have exchanged HOX genes between species. Is that a new form of life? Silly!
Phoenix is made up according to how they think it should be and what they presume it should look like.
You cannot refute that. That is a fact.
What you can do is choose to believe that this is a recon that has merit in some way. That is a belief based on faith no different to mine.
What you can't do is say that, Phoenix is not a reconstruction according to a preceived priori.
The other thing you can't do is answer what old erv's are more mutated away from?... given they are meant to show similarity to an extinct retrovirus evos have never seen and can only possibly speculate on according to computer modelling and an existing priori. That is a fact. You can have faith, but faith is all your beliefs are based on.
You are inventing something from nothing now. Nothing new there.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#65314 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>Was it not laid out clearly enough for you?
All old ERV's would have mutations. The number of differences would be dependent upon where you are in the tree of life. Two critters very closely related, like man and chimp, would have a relatively low number of differences. The difference in mutations would be much greater between man and mouse or chimp and mouse.
And no, Phoenix was not reformed based upon viral speculation. It was reformed based upon deduction, not speculation, from the TOE.
It is so freaking obvious that the article did not see any reason why they had to enter that fact. I guess they did not think about creatards that might read that article.
But these old mutations are scrambled and are not homologous with any retovirus evos can observe today. FACT.

Therefore anything you say can only be based on deduction that is the same as priori based speculation tied to TOE, and you have now admitted to that innocently. That is...Logical deductive reasoning.

THANK'S..FINALLY.....

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65315 Dec 14, 2012
No, Maz, you are a fraud.

You have not shown one thing wrong with their method of assembling Phoenix. They did not take genes willy nilly from anywhere. The genes they took came from the HERV's. Their location in Phoenix was the same as they were in the original HERV's. They merely selected the most common gene present. Since many of the genes HAD evolved, not all please note, the common genes were the most likely ones not to have mutated.

What part of that don't you understand?

The built Phoenix only with genes from the HERV's in the order they were found from the HERV's. There was no prejudice to put in special "working" genes since in the body of the HERV they really could not tell if they would be working or not.

Flying Spaghetti Monster you are dense.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#65316 Dec 14, 2012
lisawow wrote:
<quoted text>and what's wrong with accepting that a god doesn't exist, what difference should that make to someone like you who claims to be non-secular, why is that even a question in this day and age???There are evolutionary scientists of faith and those that are not, much like in life, most of the atheist agenda revolves about the freedom to Not worship, and not be dictatated too by those that do, isn't that a right that they deserve??
You deserve all the freedom you want for any reason you have. But it's going to cost ya! That's how our society works. both ways.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65317 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
But these old mutations are scrambled and are not homologous with any retovirus evos can observe today. FACT.
Therefore anything you say can only be based on deduction that is the same as priori based speculation tied to TOE, and you have now admitted to that innocently. That is...Logical deductive reasoning.
THANK'S..FINALLY.....
Yes, they have evolved. That is what the TOE predicts. I will not put words into your worthless flapper. What does creatardism predict? Why are some ERV's revivible and others are not? The TOE has a clear cut answer, you don't.

And you do not know the difference between deduction and speculation either. That is of course to be expected of a creatard. Deduction is based upon facts, logic, and get this THEORIES. If it works, like the virus did, that is very strong evidence that the deduction was correct.

The fact that Phoenix worked, something no creatard has done, is extremely strong supporting evidence for the TOE.

And creationism still has nothing.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#65318 Dec 14, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
Have fun scrolling back through the pages and pages (and pages!!) of too, should you ever decide to grow up for a few minutes, and act like a rational, sane adult.
Assertions are not evidence, she was asking for evidence.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65319 Dec 14, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Listen buddy, will you get over yourself? If I took off an ivented my own anything to show how that supports creation, I would never hear the end of it, and neither will you.
Phoenix is a fraud. It is a computer reconstructed demonstration.
You are just goosing off. These evos have exchanged HOX genes between species. Is that a new form of life? Silly!
Phoenix is made up according to how they think it should be and what they presume it should look like.
You cannot refute that. That is a fact.
What you can do is choose to believe that this is a recon that has merit in some way. That is a belief based on faith no different to mine.
What you can't do is say that, Phoenix is not a reconstruction according to a preceived priori.
The other thing you can't do is answer what old erv's are more mutated away from?... given they are meant to show similarity to an extinct retrovirus evos have never seen and can only possibly speculate on according to computer modelling and an existing priori. That is a fact. You can have faith, but faith is all your beliefs are based on.
Phoenix is real and thus not a fraud. The sequence of Phoenix was composed in silicio and holes in the sequence were filled with the most common nucleotide base observed at the specified location in 30 different sequences. That is sound logic based on observation and not circular logic as described by the prevaricator Maz. The use of computers to model the sequence is a sound practice that seems to send Maz into a repetitive rant using the one word with a mathematical basis, or variation that word, that she seems to know.

I had to pull the original paper and have read through it. Looks to me like they were able to make a functioning retrovirus from the sequence of the ancestoral viral sequence stabilized in the human genome. To the best of my knowledge they followed all the proper and necessary steps to characterize this virus and show that it is not only the same as the HERV-K virus, but it functions, is infective and acts in the manner that a retrovirus of this type would.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65320 Dec 14, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. How many times do I have to explain to you because you don't seem to follow what I'm trying to say.
Math is a universal language. We invented language to interpret our reality - the earth, the sun, the solar system. Here's an example. If there was no formula for gravity, how else would we explain its existence? Poetry?(Even that has math)
But again, you see what you want to see, you hear what you want to hear. Sounds like music to my ears!
If he is saying the same thing you are, then he seeing and hearing the same thing more or less that you are.

You could use poetry to describe gravity. In any spoken or written language of your choice. Mathematics is a language of greater consistency, universality, utility and efficiency in describing much of the natural world than spoken or written languages.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65321 Dec 14, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't seen one here who's a theist evolutionist.
Even if I didn't follow Christian beliefs, I won't be too adamant to say that God does not exist as what most hostile evos here do.
I disagree, but I have been here for a while and maybe I am more open minded. Although, I think theism as I understand it, would be difficult to practice along with science. Which may be our problem here all in all.

The hostility as I have seen it is usually against ignorance. It is unfortunate that fundamentalist beliefs and ignorance are often (always?) correlated.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65322 Dec 14, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Phoenix is real and thus not a fraud. The sequence of Phoenix was composed in silicio and holes in the sequence were filled with the most common nucleotide base observed at the specified location in 30 different sequences. That is sound logic based on observation and not circular logic as described by the prevaricator Maz. The use of computers to model the sequence is a sound practice that seems to send Maz into a repetitive rant using the one word with a mathematical basis, or variation that word, that she seems to know.
I had to pull the original paper and have read through it. Looks to me like they were able to make a functioning retrovirus from the sequence of the ancestoral viral sequence stabilized in the human genome. To the best of my knowledge they followed all the proper and necessary steps to characterize this virus and show that it is not only the same as the HERV-K virus, but it functions, is infective and acts in the manner that a retrovirus of this type would.
I agree totally. Everything in that experiment was done assuming, surprise surprise, that the Theory Of Evolution works. It was not blind speculation or whatever other insulting terms that Maz wants to use. It was scientific deduction pure and simple.

She also admits that ancestral ERV's are "scrambled". What does the TOE predict? That the longer a section of DNA, like an ERV, is in the genome the more it will have mutated and evolved. Is it any surprise that old ERV's are scrambled and are recognizable only by their shape eventually? That is exactly what the TOE would predict and since creation was supposed to be all but simultaneous not what Creationism would predict at all. Old ERV's are recognizable as old ERV's using the TOE, they are not so using creationism.

Thank you Maz for illustrating so strongly that you are once again wrong.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65323 Dec 14, 2012
lisawow wrote:
<quoted text>and what's wrong with accepting that a god doesn't exist, what difference should that make to someone like you who claims to be non-secular, why is that even a question in this day and age???There are evolutionary scientists of faith and those that are not, much like in life, most of the atheist agenda revolves about the freedom to Not worship, and not be dictatated too by those that do, isn't that a right that they deserve??
I have noticed that more of the atheists and agnostics (as claimed on here) that I have met on here have been more intelligent, logical, openminded and friendly than the claimed Christians. I say Christians specifically, since that seems to be the most commonly espoused religious view on here. If these Christians were as at ease and and confident as the atheist and agnostics, then they might not be so frightened for their beliefs.

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65324 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree totally. Everything in that experiment was done assuming, surprise surprise, that the Theory Of Evolution works. It was not blind speculation or whatever other insulting terms that Maz wants to use. It was scientific deduction pure and simple.
She also admits that ancestral ERV's are "scrambled". What does the TOE predict? That the longer a section of DNA, like an ERV, is in the genome the more it will have mutated and evolved. Is it any surprise that old ERV's are scrambled and are recognizable only by their shape eventually? That is exactly what the TOE would predict and since creation was supposed to be all but simultaneous not what Creationism would predict at all. Old ERV's are recognizable as old ERV's using the TOE, they are not so using creationism.
Thank you Maz for illustrating so strongly that you are once again wrong.
Yes, that seems to be the case they are illustrating with this very experiment. It took me a bit to come around to that point, but you have it down.

I think I would drop over with heart attack if Maz actually provided a reference that supported her point. It is like she is the Bizzaro reviewer of scientific literature and comes to the complete opposite conclusions to what is stated.

“too hard to handle”

Level 4

Since: Jun 11

butler, pa

#65325 Dec 14, 2012
Good wishes, mery christmas happy holidays and good fortune in the new year to everyone here.

“Eleanor, Where is your heart?!”

Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#65326 Dec 14, 2012

“River of tears flowing out of ”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

West Plains

#65327 Dec 14, 2012
I fish wrote:
<quoted text>
So there was never logic involved with with the universe and solar system? There was no thinking or life. Seasons and time and amounts weren't there to observe? People(believers) always associate the gospel with math when they say One sacrifice paid for Everyone's debt to prove that miracles happen that don't appear mathmatically achieveable without supernatural power.
This is all belief Rose Tyler. There is no evidence to substatiate it. The seasons occur whether we watch or not. We just call them seasons and give each a name. Just like how we name the days of the week after different gods. It doesn't change the day, it just gives us an anchor to work from. No one is saying that historical peoples didn't use math, but if you don't have a concept of numbers, and some peoples still exist this way, you aren't likely to have math. Either way, human mathematics are not a prerequisite for life. You may review your history and see how modern mathematics has been developed over the centuries. It isn't the same as it used to be.

“Eleanor, Where is your heart?!”

Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#65328 Dec 14, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>This is all belief Rose Tyler. There is no evidence to substatiate it. The seasons occur whether we watch or not. We just call them seasons and give each a name. Just like how we name the days of the week after different gods. It doesn't change the day, it just gives us an anchor to work from. No one is saying that historical peoples didn't use math, but if you don't have a concept of numbers, and some peoples still exist this way, you aren't likely to have math. Either way, human mathematics are not a prerequisite for life. You may review your history and see how modern mathematics has been developed over the centuries. It isn't the same as it used to be.
You are helping to point out how perfect things are when humans have nothing to do with them. Seasons are great. The issue is whether they evolved or were designed by God. why doesn't it take forty years for corn to grow? How long have birds beeen flying south for the winter? Why isn't the sun closer to the earth? Why do people sleep in the dark? Do humans really need rest...or was it invented?

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