Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Tempe, AZ.

#65124 Dec 13, 2012
.
The long term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to his Churchís public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel. Gary North

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Tempe, AZ.

#65125 Dec 13, 2012
What in the heck happened with the double-post....sorry admin, take the top one if you will.
Kthnx

“Eleanor, Where is your heart?!”

Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#65126 Dec 13, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>How do you know you have a soul? Have you seen it? Have you felt it? Have you heard it? Have you touched it? What does it look like? What color is it? Is it long or short? Is it round, oblong, square, triangular?
If you believe that God created everything according to the Bible, that is fine. I have no wish to interfer with the faith of another, but many of us have asked questions about the contradictions and unbelievable concepts within the Bible and have discovered that the true believers can't answer these things. The true believer ignores them. If Christianity can't accept or understand that people either don't believe, or have large questions that are left unanswered, then it is a weak religion at best and at worst a cult.
Unless someone provides the world with evidence supporting the existence of a soul, even just one soul, then asking where some souls are going to go is a pointless question.
Before you reply I feel it only fair to point out that I believe in God. I just don't follow a literal interpretation of the Bible as being a word for word, dead on accurate recitation of the God's words. I can't prove God exists and I don't bother to try nor worry about it. My belief is not threatened by science or the theory of evolution. What I do try, and actively, is go up against people that want to replace fact-based science with their own version of what they believe. Just because you believe does not make it so and the only facts that fundamentalists and other Christians can provide is the Bible. A book rife with contradiction. This is not to say that there isn't wisdom in the Bible and that it isn't a good basis for a theology and morality. It is not a science book.
What Contradiction do you see in the Bible?
Your soul is the ghost of you...the none body living breath of you. what shape does it need to have? What color do you think it is? You probably know who has felt your soul that you claim isn't there. people carry hurt/joy inside their souls...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#65127 Dec 13, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you explain that supposedly purely functional components which only LOOK like ERV's can be resurrected FROM these markers artificially with the result acting EXACTLY like a retrovirus does?
That's the part that I found to perhaps be a little "contrary"
too!!(I think, if the processing is accurate enough anyway)
I doubt if any ERV is "purely functional". They are made of DNA and it is not surprising that the genome has "learned" how to use ERV's. They are full of potentially useful genetic information. From my understanding only fairly recent ERV's can be resurrected. The longer an ERV is in the genome the more mutations it will have. An obvious fact that Maz missed since she can think only from a creationist paradigm.

And that might explain a great deal of the problem with Maz's thought process. She seems like she might be fairly bright, with the exception of basing her life on a belief in a fantasy. When you twist and turn science to take into account the equivalent of the Tooth Fairy you are going to get some very twisted science as a result.

“Eleanor, Where is your heart?!”

Level 6

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#65128 Dec 13, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>You are trying to martyr Christian beliefs. A methodolgy of the suppression of openness, innovation, science and intellectual freedom that Christianity is perfecting to the point of nausea. Christianity is among the most populace religions in the World and is in one denomination or another, the primary religion of most Americans. How then are all these anti-Christian attacks being carried out and by whom. Other Christians?
Christianity is on the attack these days and propaganda about how Christianity is being attacked is the primary weapon of first strike. I tried reading your post and maybe I will try and continue despite what I posted previously, but my description seems to fit so far. It is not science that is forcing states to go to court. It is not science that is martyring itself to support its views. It is not science that is trying to rewrite history and change the origin of the US Constitution and the views of the people that founded the United States. It is not science that throws up misrepresented facts, misinformation and lies to defend its position. Stop and ask yourself if what you believe is so strong why does it have to be defended with such false warriors weilding fictional blades.
When a woman attempts to teach a man...it is always a crime. She's the laughing stalk of the world. A work of fiction is not a crime to anyone or anything. C.S.Lewis used fiction, J R R Tolkien used fiction to convey spiritual truths. Why is The Wizard of Oz so popular? Who are the cowardly Lions? Those are probably poor examples since they aren't by women...but we can't take forever...we only have so much time. I think you are wrong about true christianity...because america is considered the 'christian nation'..that does present a problem...I don't really see so-called christians as encouraging eternal life and mercy either, but not enough can be said or done to convey that Jesus is still as pure in His leading the Church (his Church...not the Catholic...or baptist...or evangelical free...etc...Just THE CHURCH, the bride) today as he was when he walked on the earth. He doesn't lead people to do evil. He left a new commandment you know that we love eachother as he loved us. It didn't take long for Peter and Paul to go separate ways. One to the jews and one to the gentiles. But they were both ambassadors for Christ. Christ is the Prince of Peace. No person is going to bring peace. People will believe that the antichrist is alll about peace. They will follow him and be convinced that good is evil and evil is good. Everyone grows up in church it seems without knowing much other than there's rules to live by, without questioning why or without skilled and patient teachers for their why.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#65129 Dec 13, 2012
yawn

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#65130 Dec 14, 2012
theIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
Ladies and Gentlemen, behold, the evidentiary PROOF is in the putz- as presented above.
I sleep very well thank you. Glad you enjoyed MY references of direction.
###
Thatís what I love to see, a moron who has no counter arguments but is too pig headed to admit the fact.

Yes proof, not the cherry picked, quote mined garbage you have been offering but actual proof with copies of his writings on the subject of his feelings towards gods and your god in general, religion, faith etc.

However if you can provide similar proof then please feel free because really your word and you lies and offensive and slanderous comments donít mean squat.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#65131 Dec 14, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
Evidentiary presentation number two, above.
(albeit flawed-due to lacking of authenticatable, reliable source citation)
Why are you fumbling in the dark, the required sources were posted in the previous post. I know you donít like truth and fact but thatís your problem, live with it
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
Or were you just making verbal threats and/or false accusations?
Honey it was you seen and proven to be lying in the face of your god, it was you distorting a dead mans belief, I was simply pointing out haw pathetic that is.

If you consider facts to be false accusations then the problem is you personality and eductaion. All you have to do is cite sources for your claim and they will be examined, as yet you have been unable to do so however my sources however are beyond doubt
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
Along with parroting anothers posting format...
That's all REALLY, REALLY rather Freakish-as in stalker like freakish.
Honey, if you donít like me taking the p|ss out of your lying posts then donít post lies on a public thread.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#65132 Dec 14, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't trust the swabbies either-give 'em a raised eyebrow follicle at times I have lol.
You're experiencing an excess of mirth tonight! Well, at least you caught my typo without jumping on it.

No, I don't think that science has genuinely mapped too much of the genome, and what they have matched would be very telling of their agendas. It wouldn't surprise me if there were several factions out there, determined to identify the Jews, Gypsies, Native Americans and other "impurities" that have infiltrated the exquisite White Mother's world, hiding behind white skin.(or some other self-important, bigoted, megolamaniacal, label!)

We're so obsessed with imprisoning gas-and-go thieves, we'll never know what hit us. As we speak, nouveau-riche Yale preppies who think of themselves as some Jeffersonian "natural-born ruling class" are inventing the barriers to success that conservative businessmen will be embracing tomorrow. One hand washes the other, as usual. Real liberalism is dead in this country. The real trouble has yet to begin.

Anyway, a little capriciousness goes a long way. Don't get caught on the wrong side of the walls when they're built. As I see it, the Evolution crowd needs a Devil's advocate, but I don't consider myself an expendable devil, if you know what I mean!!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65133 Dec 14, 2012
Cameraman wrote:
<quoted text>
**********
I guess the reason there are a whole bunch of Egyption chariots in the Red Sea is that they had a sale on them and no one bought any, so they just dumped them in the water.
That would certainly more reasonable that claiming all science is wrong and reality isn't real therefore an invisible magic Jew didit.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#65134 Dec 14, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
How do you explain that supposedly purely functional components which only LOOK like ERV's can be resurrected FROM these markers artificially with the result acting EXACTLY like a retrovirus does?
That's the part that I found to perhaps be a little "contrary"
too!!(I think, if the processing is accurate enough anyway)
You're getting it. When a retrovirus infects a host it inserts itself into our DNA and replaces that particular base with its own DNA. Retroviruses have a recognisable protein makeup which is why we can identify them. They also have protein caps at each end which are used specifically by the virus to insert itself into a host. That's why we think of them as ERV's, which stands for Endogenous Retro-Virus. Endogenous means "born within", meaning that organisms inherit these ERV markers from their parents. In order for this to happen one of its ancestors must be infected with a retrovirus. It also must not die from the virus before it reproduces. It also must be infected in a germ line cell (sperm or egg) in order for the retrovirus genetic material to be passed onto the offspring.

As you can imagine this is quite rare. Despite this approximately 8% of our genome is made up of ERV's or ERV remnants. Now we do share a few of these ERV markers, but not all, with the other great apes at the **SAME** positions along our genomes. This means either we share common ancestry, or each of the different great ape species just so happened to catch the **SAME** retrovirus at the **SAME** position by seperate independent infections. The chances of us sharing just ONE ERV with ONE other species is approximately 1 in 1.5 BILLION. But we share many. That's why they are considered such strong evidence for evolution.

Maz claims that ERV markers were "designed", since some ERV's actually have function. This is not a problem for evolution as the whole *point* of evolution is acquiring new genetic material which eventually leads to new function. The problem is he has proposed no mechanism for it, so we're only left with "magic". He also hasn't provided scientific evidence of his "designer, so we're only left with "magic". He also has no explanation as to why ERV markers look like ERV markers, so why should he even call them ERV's at all? He also has no explanation for orthology (if an ERV is "orthologous" it means it shares the **SAME** location as the same marker in another species). He also has no explanation why orthologous ERV's show evidence of natural genetic drift consistent with nested hierarchies. He also has no explanation for if they are NOT retroviruses, why we can replicate the protein makeup of ERV's with the result acting JUST like a retrovirus does.

He also attempts to portray evolution as "atheistic", despite the fact that many Christians accept evolution. Science doesn't care about theism or atheism either way. Maybe there is a God. But either it used evolution, or it just made it LOOK like it used evolution.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#65135 Dec 14, 2012
I fish wrote:
<quoted text>
When a woman attempts to teach a man...it is always a crime. She's the laughing stalk of the world. A work of fiction is not a crime to anyone or anything. C.S.Lewis used fiction, J R R Tolkien used fiction .....
I tend to think a better analogy might be Tolkien vs. Rowling. J. K. Rowling has LOTS of recognition, but appeals to a different class of society and has very different expectations of the similar target audience.

Now, the basic characters of the two stories are very similar, but the roles played have very different consequences. Whereas Rowling is obsessed with class and education, Tolkien has more of a Karma approach to who fulfills what roles in his story. Granted, there is a royalty aspect in Tolkien that Rowling does not include, but that is just another part of the absolutely stereotypical male and female roles of leadership that separate matriarchies and patriarchies.

Neither is wrong, nor is either absolutely right, but for my part, I don't like Rowling much as she typically considers all males disposable in favor of the "chosen" one. That suggests a level of insecurity, and a divide and conquer strategy, that weakens matriarchal cultures.

Tolkien admits to a secondary role of women in leadership but I think he did his bet to give them roles, to include the killing of the second greatest power of evil in battle. Generally, I think he just accepts the natural roles that go along with sexual dimorphism.

Just my opinion.
TheIndependentMa jority

Somerset, KY

#65136 Dec 14, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I hadn't thought of it that way. What a very good and interesting point you make.
I cannot imagine considering the existances of those that lived before us, as being "meaningless". Not even when they no longer physcially walk among us.

Life is precious, every day, another blessing, and yet many people WASTE (or abuse) precious time, THEN rendering (that sort of) of time, as "meaningless".

Just MY opinion though-certainly not a "fact".
TheIndependentMa jority

Somerset, KY

#65137 Dec 14, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Alexander looked at the length and bredth of his kingdom and wept for there were no more worlds to conquer. Alexander had a very limited view of the world. There is so much uncharted water and quantum physics is only one sea among many.
Alexander needed a better way, other than belligerrently conquering others :-).
TheIndependentMa jority

Somerset, KY

#65139 Dec 14, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>When you twist and turn science to take into account the equivalent of the Tooth Fairy you are going to get some very twisted science as a result.
I can't logic anyone calling a book full of recorded history of ancient civilizations, a "fairy tale" either. Add warped to twisted, and I will gladly second that notion.
Just for ONE small example in the many pages of time recorded--and for instance--

Battles of Megiddo

Many battles have taken place near the town of Megiddo, Palestine, but only those during the last three and a half millennia are known.

Megiddo is a tel, a hill made of 26 layers of the ruins of ancient cities in a strategic location at the head of a pass through the Carmel Ridge, which overlooks the Jezreel Valley from the south. Megiddo was a site of great importance in ancient world, as it guarded the western branch of Via Maris, an ancient trade route from Egypt to Mesopotamia.

The site was inhabited from 7000 BC to 500 BC. Modern Megiddo is nearby. The neighboring Mount Megiddo (Har-megiddo in Hebrew), gave its name to the Armageddon of the Christian Bible.

A list of known battles follows.
Battle of 1469 BC
This is the first battle in all of history about which reliable detailed information survives. Pharaoh Tutmoses III conquered Canaan in an early expansion of the Egyptian Empire.
Battle of 609 BC
The forces of Egypt fought those of the Kingdom of Judah. Egypt under Necho II was allied with the Assyrians against the Babylonians. Rushing to help the Assyrians, the Egyptians were blocked on Via Maris by the army of Judah, led by its king Josiah. The Egyptians prevailed over Judah, and Josiah was killed. However, Egypt was not able to prevent a Babylonian victory over the Assyrians four years later.

Battle of 1918
The battle of September 19-21, 1918, was an important milestone in British General Edmund Allenby's conquest of Palestine during World War I. His forces made a massive push into the Ezdraelon Valley from the west, through the Carmel Ridge then engulfed the Turkish forces in the valley and on the River Jordan. When he was created a viscount, Allenby took the name of this battle as his own, becoming the First Viscount Allenby of Megiddo.
---------

he Battle of Megiddo is the first battle that was recorded in detail and for posterity. Pharaoh Thutmose III's military scribe inscribed it in hieroglyphs at Thutmose's temple at Karnak, Thebes (now Luxor). Not only is this the first extant, detailed battle description, but it is the first written reference to the religiously important Megiddo: Megiddo is also known as Armageddon.

Historically, Megiddo was an important city because it overlooked the route from Egypt through Syria to Mesopotamia. If an enemy of Egypt controlled Megiddo, it could block the pharaoh from reaching the rest of his empire.
In approximately 1479 B.C., Thutmose III, pharaoh of Egypt, led an expedition against the prince of Kadesh who was in Megiddo.
Battle of Megiddo - Background:

After holding at Romani in August 1916, British troops began advancing across the Sinai Peninsula. Winning minor victories at Magdhaba and Rafa, their campaign was finally halted in front of Gaza by Ottoman forces in March 1917. After a second attempt against the city failed, command of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force passed to General Sir Edmund Allenby. Renewing the Allied offensive in late October, Allenby shattered the enemy defenses at the Third Battle of Gaza. Rapidly advancing, he entered Jerusalem in December. Though Allenby intended to crush the Ottomans in the spring of 1918, he was quickly forced on the defensive when the bulk of his troops were reassigned to aid in defeating the German Spring Offensives on the Western Front. Holding along a line running from the Mediterranean east to the Jordan River, Allenby was slowly reinforced during the summer...
(some links from somewhere on some web--why even bother to rewrite what was already)
TheIndependentMa jority

Somerset, KY

#65141 Dec 14, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Thatís what I love to see, a moron who has no counter arguments but is too pig headed to admit the fact.
Yes proof, not the cherry picked, quote mined garbage you have been offering but actual proof with copies of his writings on the subject of his feelings towards gods and your god in general, religion, faith etc.
However if you can provide similar proof then please feel free because really your word and you lies and offensive and slanderous comments donít mean squat.
I already did--sorry you missed it.
TheIndependentMa jority

Somerset, KY

#65142 Dec 14, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you fumbling in the dark, the required sources were posted in the previous post. I know you donít like truth and fact but thatís your problem, live with it
<quoted text>
Honey it was you seen and proven to be lying in the face of your god, it was you distorting a dead mans belief, I was simply pointing out haw pathetic that is.
If you consider facts to be false accusations then the problem is you personality and eductaion. All you have to do is cite sources for your claim and they will be examined, as yet you have been unable to do so however my sources however are beyond doubt
Honey, if you donít like me taking the p|ss out of your lying posts then donít post lies on a public thread.
I'm not an "honey" of yours, so please save your nothing but ego tripping rudeness of ignorance- for anyone that is.

I enjoyed my OWN researched links, found them to be MORE than enough, and very credible.

Not my problem--whatever you're problem is...and YOU do seem to have one, calling dead people and their interviewers "liars".

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#65143 Dec 14, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
I already did--sorry you missed it.
Did what Ė chicken out?

Because you have never Ė let me repeat

N - E - V - E - R

provided any objective evidence for what you claim.

You have made statements, you have copied and pasted from apologetics sites (without citation) but you have never actually cited evidence.

I would however welcome if you did, it would at least make you look less of a blithering idiot, but donít ask me to hold my breath while you do it

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#65144 Dec 14, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not an "honey" of yours, so please save your nothing but ego tripping rudeness of ignorance- for anyone that is.
I enjoyed my OWN researched links, found them to be MORE than enough, and very credible.
Not my problem--whatever you're problem is...and YOU do seem to have one, calling dead people and their interviewers "liars".
Right honey,

You may have your own ďresearch linksĒ but until you show us what those links are then they are worthless in any argument

I have offered proof, I have linked you to pages that show the passages Einstein wrote, both in his native language and translated into English. What have you provided, nothing thatís N Ė O Ė T Ė H Ė I Ė N Ė G but lies and bullcrap.

I have left the way open for you to supply your evidence, I have asked that you supply your evidence, it is no ones fault but your own that you have been unable to do that
TheIndependentMa jority

Somerset, KY

#65145 Dec 14, 2012
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
You're experiencing an excess of mirth tonight! Well, at least you caught my typo without jumping on it.
No, I don't think that science has genuinely mapped too much of the genome, and what they have matched would be very telling of their agendas. It wouldn't surprise me if there were several factions out there, determined to identify the Jews, Gypsies, Native Americans and other "impurities" that have infiltrated the exquisite White Mother's world, hiding behind white skin.(or some other self-important, bigoted, megolamaniacal, label!)
We're so obsessed with imprisoning gas-and-go thieves, we'll never know what hit us. As we speak, nouveau-riche Yale preppies who think of themselves as some Jeffersonian "natural-born ruling class" are inventing the barriers to success that conservative businessmen will be embracing tomorrow. One hand washes the other, as usual. Real liberalism is dead in this country. The real trouble has yet to begin.
Anyway, a little capriciousness goes a long way. Don't get caught on the wrong side of the walls when they're built. As I see it, the Evolution crowd needs a Devil's advocate, but I don't consider myself an expendable devil, if you know what I mean!!
Ah...not in my genetics to "jump on typos" out of hateful ignorance, just for some weak validation of denial of ones own ineptness :-). If and when I do so, I do so in good natured preference, and for the mere "funning" of it :-). Unless of course it would be a situation where such would matter an iota, but that is another whole realm.

Diametrically, I wouldn't consider Yalies as noveua anything-most especially "rich". FAR, far from it lol. Liberals are generally to "liberal" to be such lol. I would have to entitle THAt type of brainlessnes to the "Harvard" up-turned squeak and squeal pig snouters types lol. You know, the ones that fathom themselves to be some sort of dieties on earth, with nary a flaw, or never an incorrect bone-oh my-oh heavens no!:-)
I prefer paths of REALITY, and finding ways of crossing o'er the many stumbling stones that litter it.
I find it's much just easier, and much kinder on the whole existential being then...because running into boulders all the times is NOT anyway to exist harmoniously, thank you :-).

Loved your description of the blending of the Hienz 57 world in which we live though lol.

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