Evolution vs. Creation

[KittenKoder]

Cybele wrote:

<quoted text>
or we can just speed up the process with genetic engineering, cross species, and cloning. We play god and then we become gods! You said unicorn didn't you?

Conspiracy nuttery, and a possible Ray Comfort fallacy hidden in there because, we have been genetically engineering our food sources since we learned how to farm. It's the reason we have cows, corn, bananas you can bite into, and a mess of other really successful genetically engineered food products. Yeah, that's genetic engineering, the cow, not natural at all, we made it, by choosing specific types to breed and letting the others die off. We chose corn that was tastier and planted more of it, ignoring what didn't taste so well. We found the bananas with the fewest seeds, and kept planting and eating what we could from those, eventually, after a few thousand years, a lot more for some, we now have yellow corn, soft bananas, and beef.

[KittenKoder]

Bat Foy wrote:

<quoted text>
I think I jumped ahead or misread one of your previous posts I thought you had said 150-175 mutations per generation. Can evolution be reproduced? I've read some stuff about them trying on fruit flies and failing. I think it was looking for mutations and trying to breed them to be better flies?

Several fruit fly "guided" tests were done, and several were very successful actually. There was one where they were guided to two completely different species of fruit flies. They choose fruit flies because they have a really short breeding cycle and lifespan, in other species they'd still be working on the first few generations.

[Bat Foy]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>You are sort of getting it. Now, you need to learn what a mutation is. A mutation is any change, any change at all, in the billions of molecules that make up the DNA. So 175 is less than a 1% change, if there are 3 billion pairs, for example, 175 mutations is 0.000000058% change. The human gene has 3 billion pairs. Now it unlikely that such a small change is even visible, think a new pimple that's passed down through generations, each generation it gets just a bit bigger, after a few hundred that pimple looks more like a mole ... a few hundred more it's now hard and pointy, but still so tiny almost no one notices it ... a few thousand more and humans have horns. Of course this hypothetical is not likely to happen, and the artificial selection are are now doing for ourselves may prevent the trait from being passed on to enough generations and it will either be replaced by something else, or just fade out completely. In the natural world, it would be a new weapon, possibly a mating feature, the possibilities of how it would influence the organism are too vast to calculate, so we often simplify it and give it an "odds" value based on statistical data, which is not right very often yet because it still needs more study. But, it happens, you are an evolutionary step from your parents, just because you were born, you have mutations in your genes.

Not sure if this made since or not

Evolution is fact.......
But their is no way to know how when why the reactions will take place how it will react or even if it will change anything?
Which would make evolution more a necessity to survive than a matter of time?

[Subduction Zone]

Bat Foy wrote:

<quoted text>
I think I jumped ahead or misread one of your previous posts I thought you had said 150-175 mutations per generation. Can evolution be reproduced? I've read some stuff about them trying on fruit flies and failing. I think it was looking for mutations and trying to breed them to be better flies?

There are so many possible changes that it is not really possible for the same path to be taken.

I don't think the changes they were trying for was to improve the fruit flies.

[Makesure100]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Aw, I have a new fan. How sweet. Autographs are every other Tuesday at the rec center, just below the gold statue of Darwin, be there, or be square, you little button, you.

Call me Boris.

[Cybele]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Conspiracy nuttery, and a possible Ray Comfort fallacy hidden in there because, we have been genetically engineering our food sources since we learned how to farm. It's the reason we have cows, corn, bananas you can bite into, and a mess of other really successful genetically engineered food products. Yeah, that's genetic engineering, the cow, not natural at all, we made it, by choosing specific types to breed and letting the others die off. We chose corn that was tastier and planted more of it, ignoring what didn't taste so well. We found the bananas with the fewest seeds, and kept planting and eating what we could from those, eventually, after a few thousand years, a lot more for some, we now have yellow corn, soft bananas, and beef.

Honestly I prefer genetically engineered fruits. But from time to time I buy organic foods.

I'm talking about HUMAN genetic engineering or even cloning. I actually support stem cell research.

[Makesure100]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Aw, I have a new fan. How sweet. Autographs are every other Tuesday at the rec center, just below the gold statue of Darwin, be there, or be square, you little button, you.

I would love your fruit.

[Bat Foy]

Subduction Zone wrote:

<quoted text>There are so many possible changes that it is not really possible for the same path to be taken.

I don't think the changes they were trying for was to improve the fruit flies.

Kitten is correct the paper I read they chose fruit flies because they could watch several generations at the same time and the breeding cycle was very rapid.
I would assume any genetic change in a fruit fly would take much longer for a more complex life form such as man?

[Cybele]

Bat Foy wrote:

<quoted text>
Take it easy on the LOL I'm really trying to understand this stuff.
To be honest I've been reading and reading trying to get it all for the last three weeks and I gotta tell ya faith as complicated as it can get is a cake walk in comparison.

I'd rather read the science of spiderman. Who wants to wait another million years to evolve when we have the technology to alter our genes? Seriously I don't care where we came from.

[KittenKoder]

Cybele wrote:

<quoted text>
Honestly I prefer genetically engineered fruits. But from time to time I buy organic foods.
I'm talking about HUMAN genetic engineering or even cloning. I actually support stem cell research.

Um, all corn is genetically engineered, so are all bananas, all cattle, and a lot of other stuff that would not exist if we hadn't engineered it. I don't remember the whole list off hand, but it's not a short one.

[macumazahn]

Cybele wrote:

<quoted text>
Then why do giraffes bend over to eat grass? The shorter ones will survive just as well. And where did giraffes evolve from?

Giraffes are browsers, not grazers. They subsist almost exclusively on the leaves of the acacia tree. The extra height lets 'em reach food that other browsers can't.
Where did you get the idea that they ate grass?

[thewordofme]

liygc wrote:

evolution theory that man came from a mud puddle so to speak = pure laughable crap
creation= logical

The Bible has the following either implied or stated as fact:

Our universe was spoken into existence out of nothing…by a floaty thing in the sky

Plants were created before the sun was.

The first man was created from dust.

The first woman was made from a rib taken from the first man.(we both have the same number of ribs however)

They are in a garden that has ‘magic’ fruit, to make people live forever and be smart.

There is a talking snake.(did it have legs I wonder)

Incest was used to jump start the population.

There are Angels…good and bad…and demons.

There are giants and Unicorns.

There are witches, wizards and magicians.

There are bad Angels that rape human women.

Human pregnancy/reproduction is possible with no human father.(just like some of the other gods around the time of Jesus).

People can rise from the grave and walk the streets.(Zombies anyone?)

People live as long as 900+ years.

Dinosaurs and people lived together.

God commits genocide by flooding the earth and only saving 8 humans.(apparently the thought of just starting completely over never occurred to Him).

God makes the Sun stay in the sky so a human battle can be completed.

There is a talking, burning bush somewhere in the mountains of the Sinai desert.

There is a talking donkey.

People (other than Moses) can change wooden staffs into live snakes.

A man sees Jesus in a beam of light…and all of Jesus’ thoughts and wishes are downloaded to him.(Hollywood Blvd. anybody?).

There is a man that lives inside a fish for 3 days.

Insects are said to have 4 legs (would a God REALLY be this stupid??).

The cure for leprosy is dove blood sprinkled on the toes (REALLY??)

If you position mating livestock in front of a stripped stick, they will produce stripped offspring.

Today we can actually disprove most of these Biblical assertions/stories.

Yeah, christianity is real logical bud

[KittenKoder]

Bat Foy wrote:

<quoted text>
Kitten is correct the paper I read they chose fruit flies because they could watch several generations at the same time and the breeding cycle was very rapid.
I would assume any genetic change in a fruit fly would take much longer for a more complex life form such as man?

I can't recall the reasons they change slower, but I'd wager a lot has to do with a lack of natural pressures. They pretty much own the waste fruit disposal niche, no predators other than spiders, which are stuck to things and can't fly. There may be other factors, but I'm unfamiliar with those.

[macumazahn]

Makesure100 wrote:

<quoted text>
Where did you get your conscience? The ability to choose? You give credit to an unknown theory or purpose. Try to fathom a rolex watch emerging from stone dust to exactness of time. You are a fool. It's inexcusable to deny creation.

Even if one accepted the silliness of that long-debunked argument - how do you know you're worshipping the right watchmaker?

[Cybele]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Um, all corn is genetically engineered, so are all bananas, all cattle, and a lot of other stuff that would not exist if we hadn't engineered it. I don't remember the whole list off hand, but it's not a short one.

Yes I know. They inject those hormones in animals.

Ever heard of Spider-Goat?

[KittenKoder]

Bat Foy wrote:

<quoted text>
Not sure if this made since or not
Evolution is fact.......
But their is no way to know how when why the reactions will take place how it will react or even if it will change anything?
Which would make evolution more a necessity to survive than a matter of time?

Not with 100% certainty, but that's simply due to our limited understanding of the processes in the entire universe, not evolution, we understand that well enough that if we knew all the influences outside of it, we'd be able to predict future phylogeny the way we have predicted the creation of future atomic elements, or how we predict the orbit of the moon, things like that. Not that they're connected, but that there are a lot of tiny influences we just don't have algorithms to help us map yet.

[macumazahn]

Bat Foy wrote:

<quoted text>
Alright but how does it come to be that 2 of a compatible species would have come to be at the same time?(What are the odds really?)

The changes within any given generation are infinitesimal - but given enough generations, environmental pressure, separation of groups, etc., one does eventually wind up with a different species. This resultant species will be unable to breed with the original, which may still survive.

[Cybele]

macumazahn wrote:

<quoted text>Giraffes are browsers, not grazers. They subsist almost exclusively on the leaves of the acacia tree. The extra height lets 'em reach food that other browsers can't.
Where did you get the idea that they ate grass?

You've never seen them eat grass? not only that, they also drink water.

[macumazahn]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Odds do not describe what happens at all. You are still thinking like a creatard, stop that and you will actually have time to learn instead of asking random stupid questions on a forum full of random people.

Gently, Kit. I think he may actually be trying to learn.

That'd make him honest - just maybe a bit misled.

[Bat Foy]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>Not with 100% certainty, but that's simply due to our limited understanding of the processes in the entire universe, not evolution, we understand that well enough that if we knew all the influences outside of it, we'd be able to predict future phylogeny the way we have predicted the creation of future atomic elements, or how we predict the orbit of the moon, things like that. Not that they're connected, but that there are a lot of tiny influences we just don't have algorithms to help us map yet.

Would human DNA evolve slower due to our technology and our ability to change our environment since the day man made fire we have changed the world to suite us?