Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Read more

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#63733 Dec 7, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
The sheer power of such a machine, but yeah, the noise issue is one that has slowed it down considerably as well. Mostly it's that people who code, like me, have become comfortable with binary, it's easy and static so we don't have to worry about precision. Most people don't know enough about computers so they just shrug at the notion not even considering how much computing power such a thing would conceivably possess. If I had a lab for development I'd work on it myself, but alas, you need a bit more funding for hardware tech development than other sciences. I think that analogue computers are the next step, we've reached a ceiling in our digital tech and now we're just adding more processors to the machines instead of actually improving the processors. Oh, and we are improving the PCB layouts, using evolutionary algorithms, that's fun to watch in real time, the computers working out the best PCB layouts is a thing of poetry.
Digital computers have reached their peak, the chips cannot be etched smaller than the wavelength of light and they reached that stage years ago, hence the search for more power with multiple cpus on a chip.

My business (3D animation and graphics) is very computer intensive, the requirement and expectation is now far outstripping the ability of digital processing.

People like Pixar build there own mainframes from hundreds of the most powerful rack PCs simply because there is nothing to do the job otherwise. Itís rather reminiscent of a server room using a custom OS dedicated to one single task.

Perhaps analogue machines will bring about a solution, I hope so because these old SGIís we use are literally getting worn out and there is nothing economically viable to replace them.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#63734 Dec 7, 2012
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I notice she didn't respond to what I said about her faulty interpretation. Funny how that works.
Quite sad really, but no more than can be expected from a lying creatard

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63735 Dec 7, 2012
TheIndependentMajority wrote:
Because--
But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
The aspiration toward truth and understanding only happens when one escapes religion. You, on the other hand, have got it quite backward. In fact, religion is endlessly and falsely claiming to the the source of all good emotions. It's amazing how effective that indoctrination is. Look at yourself spouting it. You know when you have been indoctrinated when it actually feeds so good to say it -- despite not having taken a critical look at what you are saying.

"faith in the possibility" -- Now there's a hopeful phrasing. A bit self contradictory, don't you think?

Most religion includes the faith in miracles. Miracles, if true, are the total disabuse of that "faith in the possibility" that the real world operates with rational rules, ones that would be comprehensible to reason.

Lots of good science is done with out any religion or religious inspiration about it. Lots is done by the very pious too. Humans are so good at compartmentalization that religion hardly interferes except in a few specific categories where it feels threatened.

Sorry for coming down so hard on you. I really do appreciate the feeling of what you are saying. The more gentle part of religion, the kind that just gives one a sense of peace without getting too much into theology, may afford some happiness that allows one to concentrate better on difficult science. Probably depends on cultural upbringing. It is rather frantic to have to question everything all at once. There are times to just accept some things and concentrate on the others.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#63736 Dec 7, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
You asked for answer I googled it for you, k?
binary code = series of numbers 1 and 0
the computer converts letters into numbers
BTW, this is red herring. Why are we talking about computers?
And what was your last question again?
Ahh a series of 0ís and 1ís yes, can you explain for example why the digital device identified as 74LS373 is described as a TRI STATE binary D type latch? Is the third state a binary Ĺ or a binary 2 or a binary Ė1, or what?

You see digital electronics and binary code are not just a matter of 0ís and 1ís

We are discussing computere/binary code because DF asked you a question which you fobbed off with a duhÖ
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/T9Q...

I was simply querying your post to see if you actually knew what you were talking about. It seems you didnít and so had to look it up.

My last question was does an analogue computer use binary codes?

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63737 Dec 7, 2012
Makesure100 wrote:
<quoted text>
I am pleased to see that you incorporate evolution as a theory. It will always be a theory because we don't have the fossil evidence to prove otherwise. Creation is the only adaption as to why we are even here. However, it takes humility to accept a creator.
Gravity is only a theory too. It will always be a theory. Jump off a cliff, and see what the theory of evolution, survival of the fittest, has to say about your role in it.

All it takes is is a bit more humility to accept that the creator was Darwin himself. Humility good. More humility better. So long as you don't mind getting humiliated.

Aside from mountains of fossil evidence supporting evolutionary theory, there is also a pile of living organizations that seem to show a pattern that indicates the operation of evolution over the ages. More than that, there is all the DNA evidence.

Blithely saying something doesn't accomplish much to make it true. For instance I would say there is no such thing as red lights. Try believing me just for a day in city traffic. Given enough faith you won't see them. Evolution has some simple measurements of the value of blind credulity. Hey little bunny rabbit, that fox over their must want to be friends with you.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63738 Dec 7, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Then why do giraffes bend over to eat grass? The shorter ones will survive just as well. And where did giraffes evolve from?


Long legs and a long neck reach the ground just as well as short legs and a short neck. In that they are the same. When all the grass is eaten the long neck can much on the trees, but the shorter ones do not have that fall back upon.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63739 Dec 7, 2012
Makesure100 wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did you get your conscience? The ability to choose? You give credit to an unknown theory or purpose. Try to fathom a rolex watch emerging from stone dust to exactness of time. You are a fool. It's inexcusable to deny creation.
We got our conscience and the ability to choose from evolution, which, by the way is a known theory, not an unknown one.

Miracle believers are the ones who might believe a rolex watch emerging from stone dust. All you would have to do is say the it was a miracle, and all common sense goes out the window. Scientific theory creators are the least likely to fall for such am illusion. Why to you think they would be more gullible than you are?

If there were an argument to make me doubt the effectiveness of evolution, you might be it.

“There's a feeling I get...”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

...when I look to the West

#63740 Dec 7, 2012
AustinHook wrote:
<quoted text>
Long legs and a long neck reach the ground just as well as short legs and a short neck. In that they are the same. When all the grass is eaten the long neck can much on the trees, but the shorter ones do not have that fall back upon.
Giraffes like Acacia and Combretums - They have very specialised tongues to navigate the thorns. Their long neck allow them to reach the succulent leaves at the top.

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#63741 Dec 7, 2012
AustinHook wrote:
<quoted text>
Even bits in a computer are analogue, but the intermediate states are wasted so as to minimize the chances of error. BTW a lot of logic is tri-state, even in digital electronics. Early computers I worked with were decimal or bi-quinary. Digital computers could use other bases than binary.
A lot of communications technology uses 4, 8 or even larger number bases. That's how advances in modem technology were made. I remember the confusion over what could be the maximum channel capacity of a band limited phone line. Teletypes started off using 75 or 110 bits per second, and them modems going 300, 1200 or 2400 were used on phone lines. First it was said that there was an absolute limit of 2400 baud, and then modem manufactures started putting out modems with 4800, 9600 and higher bit rates. Well actually it WAS limited to 2400 baud, but one baud is a state change and for a while people were so caught up in the idea that binary=digital that they didn't take to heart the fact that a state change can contain more information than simply on or off. As soon as that unnecessary constraint was lifted communications started using non-binary states and modem speeds took off again.
There is some theory that estimates that the most economic base for a computer should be that integer number that is closest to the base of the natural logarithms which is around 2.7. In that case the most economical computers should be base 3.
Still I haven't seen any technological developments that indicate that analogue computing is headed for a comeback except in special cases.
I know quite a lot about digital systems and the history of digital electronics, but not so much about analogue, my only experience of analogue electronics is in the general fields of TV/Radio so thanks for the info.

Following my conversation with Kitten I spent some of yesterday (while I spent 10 hours travelling to and from a 25 minute meeting) looking at the analogue side of modern computing.

From what I now understand they are more simulation specific than calculation specific (and therefore less flexible) than their digital counterpart but considerably faster at performing their dedicated simulations.

Hereís a paper from columbia uni dated 2005 for an analogue computer idea that solves differential equations at the rate of 14Gflops
http://www.cisl.columbia.edu/grads/gcowan/vls...

And here is one from Reading uni with a discussion of the differences in processing methods and ways of comparing speeds.
http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~sws97mha/Public...

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63742 Dec 7, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>

I'm asking how does DNA of one species change into another.
Are you saying that you really don't know this already?

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63743 Dec 7, 2012
Bat Foy wrote:
<quoted text>
Alright but how does it come to be that 2 of a compatible species would have come to be at the same time?(What are the odds really?)
Speciation is not a quantum step, it's a gradual process. This is the perspective that you are missing.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63744 Dec 7, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Odds do not describe what happens at all. You are still thinking like a creatard, stop that and you will actually have time to learn instead of asking random stupid questions on a forum full of random people.
I trust it was an innocent question, and merely needs a simple answer.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63745 Dec 7, 2012
Makesure100 wrote:
<quoted text>
NO fossil evidence, just a large gap in between. The easy way out is to say there is no creator..........freaky and isolated, solitude. No proof.........no proof.
I too suspect a large gap. Might be between the ears. Pretty sure you are faking it though. Happy trolling.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63746 Dec 7, 2012
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
Giraffes like Acacia and Combretums - They have very specialised tongues to navigate the thorns. Their long neck allow them to reach the succulent leaves at the top.
My goat ate up all our rosebushes this summer. Tongue seems normal.

“There's a feeling I get...”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

...when I look to the West

#63747 Dec 7, 2012
AustinHook wrote:
<quoted text>
My goat ate up all our rosebushes this summer. Tongue seems normal.
Acacia thorns are a bit more dangerous:

http://www.google.co.za/imgres...

“There's a feeling I get...”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

...when I look to the West

#63748 Dec 7, 2012

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#63749 Dec 7, 2012
AustinHook wrote:
<quoted text>
My goat ate up all our rosebushes this summer. Tongue seems normal.
You are lucky, my goats are partial to eating my clothes
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#63750 Dec 7, 2012
AustinHook wrote:
<quoted text>
I attended a two day seminar with Malidoma Some, from Upper Volta (Burkina Faso) who grew up with dual traditions, Jesuit and witch doctor. He convinced us of how we have an innate attraction to ritual, and it does have a good side, in that it facilitates community building, and can bring a sense of piece if done gently.
Sure, ritual can be a potent force for evil, but for good as well if kept in balance. I would not be too hasty to deprecate it's value.
Heck, I still put up a Christmas tree! I appreciate the spirit of Christmas, but it one of the more natural aspects of Christian culture, an altruistic ritual that has little fear of damnation associated with it.

Most rituals are like apes symbolically mounting each other to show dominance. Most people are very maladjusted because they have so much programmed into them and so little conscious understanding to go with it. What people should fundamentally understand is that Christianity IS indoctrination into the agenda of the State. That pretty much comes down to obeying the law and breeding yourself into a state of dependence on the good will of the herd.

What you think of the State is another matter. In the U.S., we seem to have put the agenda of an aristocracy over the needs or our own lives. Because of that, I blame the Church for failing to see to spirituality in favor of the aristocracy's personal ambitions.

Generally, we could talk about politics and why we spend so much on our military, etc, but that's not the topic here. Visit a few non-American comedy websites and see what our image has become. We tend to be referred to as "murikans", fat and hard-headed pigs, shoving our way into the middle of everything. It's true! We don't care about our long term health. We have absolutely have no interest in understanding others. We've become herd animals who never question our masters. I won't have anything to do with that culture.(Or lack thereof!)

From an evolutionary standpoint, perhaps that is the natural order of things. Until we consume every last scrap of fossil fuels and other natural resources, we only risk allowing others to take them first to dominate us. There will be no stability until those resources are gone for good and humanity is back to living within the planet's means.

Personally, I'd rather have some of the comforts of civilization, but not if it means being a 'murikan!

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63751 Dec 7, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Following my conversation with Kitten I spent some of yesterday (while I spent 10 hours travelling to and from a 25 minute meeting) looking at the analogue side of modern computing.
From what I now understand they are more simulation specific than calculation specific (and therefore less flexible) than their digital counterpart but considerably faster at performing their dedicated simulations.
Looked at your links. Neato. I was feeling sorry for Analog SF magazine the other day, stuck with an name like that, while supposedly speculating on the future, when everything seems to have gone digital. Nice to see it still has a niche. I suppose with a gate array approach to analogue, perhaps the implementations can be made less specific. Of course, these days a lot of chips are mixed analogue/digital already.

Participated in converting a large analogue seismic processing system into digital in the mid-60's, near Paris, France. Fresh from learning digital I was amazed, actually, at how much had been done with analogue. As an early teenager I had played with amateur radio. It was fun, but I found the cookbook approach quite a tease, and yearned to know the math that would give me real insight. Then digital swept me away. Took MIT's online 6002X course last spring. It was a great and fun bridge between all I learned by myself in analogue electronics as a kid to all I learned by myself later.

OOps, getting off evolutionary topic here. Maybe time to start discussing genetic algorithms or something... Thanks for the interlude!

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#63752 Dec 7, 2012
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I'd rather have some of the comforts of civilization, but not if it means being a 'murikan!
Ran into that slang in a conversation by two French girls when I first moved to Paris. They were a bit embarrassed that I caught the phrase. I really didn't mind, Yankee was a deprecating slang once too.
(For context I was a New Yorker, left the USA in 1965 at 22, and never came back, but eventually settled in Canada)

I have lived in enough places around the world to know both the great marvels and the great faults of many a country. It's easy to flip from one view to the opposite of one's own country. Fight the worst, and strive for the best, and have fun doing it! Eh?

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