Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#62910 Dec 3, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Woops, that's right, I must have been half asleep!
Birds are warm blooded and dinos are cold blooded, a big difference!
I'll fix it.
Nope, dinosaurs were warm blooded too.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#62911 Dec 3, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Facts are facts. They don't differ. If they did, nothing would be real.
Truth and Facts are two different words, not really meaning the same thing. Truth prevails over facts.

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62912 Dec 3, 2012
Orriapa paquia wrote:
<quoted text>
I see how you cant answer any question or bring forth any scientific citation despite multiple requests.
I see how you havent put forth any scientific citation
I see how you call me stupid when you cant understand that without DNA there is no evolution period!!
Have you not understood that?
Let me spell it out for you:
Without cell replication there is no cell alive period!
Without DNA there is no cell replication!! period!!.
DNA is the most complex and densely packed and elaborate information storage device known to man!!
So explain to me Subduction zone how you will not explain DNA if it is the foundation of cell replication.
Please just quote the scienctific citations so that individuals with less IQ such as me can just look at the data. Spare me your analogies as they obviously are to complex for me. Just provide me the data
Also comment on Richard dawkins statements aboutthe existance of aliens and the scientific evidence to support it. Being that evolutionists are all about science
You know the same can be said of a lot of biological phenomenon that have been heavily characterized and study over the years. The point is that you don't need to be able to pin point an abiogenesis event in order to study these biological systems. You don't need to characterize the abiogenesis event to make numerous discoveries about biological phenomenon. In fact, scientist have made literally thousands of observations and discoveries about biological phenomenon without reference to abiogenesis or when the first cell came about. That includes all we know about evolution.

Your mischaracterization that evolution hangs on the thread of our lack of knowledge about the formation of the first cells is an illogical argument. If it were true, then the whole of biology would hang on that same thread.

Ecology for instance, doesn't hang on a thread because of your "oh so critical knowledge of this cellular progenator" and many important discoveries have been made in that field and continue to be made.

Evolution too, does not need it to be characterized, studied and supported.

Do you somehow think that in order to drive a car, describe that car, and work on that car, you need to know when, where, by whom and how many people it was made. If you do, well, this forum is not where you need to seek help.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#62913 Dec 3, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
No, he hasn't.
Just like, " Truth", and, " Lies ". They must always be parrallel to each other.
I don't subscribe to liars.

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62914 Dec 3, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Your biased statements and use of language, led me to use that word.
And your biased and confused statements have inspired me to use the words I choose.

But it isn't to say that I don't enjoy some good banter with you.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#62915 Dec 3, 2012
Of course we have had evidence for quite some time that dinosaurs were warm blooded. There are the feathers that have been found on many dinosaurs. Feathers were probably originally for heat regulation. That along with studies of dinosaur kinematics that indicated it needed warm blood to move as fast as they did. This article is only one of many, it is perhaps the most recent bit of evidence found that supports warm blooded dinosaurs:

http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/Dinosau...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#62916 Dec 3, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>You know the same can be said of a lot of biological phenomenon that have been heavily characterized and study over the years. The point is that you don't need to be able to pin point an abiogenesis event in order to study these biological systems. You don't need to characterize the abiogenesis event to make numerous discoveries about biological phenomenon. In fact, scientist have made literally thousands of observations and discoveries about biological phenomenon without reference to abiogenesis or when the first cell came about. That includes all we know about evolution.
Your mischaracterization that evolution hangs on the thread of our lack of knowledge about the formation of the first cells is an illogical argument. If it were true, then the whole of biology would hang on that same thread.
Ecology for instance, doesn't hang on a thread because of your "oh so critical knowledge of this cellular progenator" and many important discoveries have been made in that field and continue to be made.
Evolution too, does not need it to be characterized, studied and supported.
Do you somehow think that in order to drive a car, describe that car, and work on that car, you need to know when, where, by whom and how many people it was made. If you do, well, this forum is not where you need to seek help.
Oriappa does not do analogies.

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62917 Dec 3, 2012
Orriapa paquia wrote:
<quoted text>
So heres a summary for you:
I asked you to provide data: nothing
I asked you if you understood cell replication: nothing
I asked you if you understand evolution/natural selection: nothing
I asked you if you understand DNA: nothing
I asked you about R Dawkins: nothing
I guess now i can explain to others that the theory of evolution is explains DNA by a trip from Chicago to seattle. LOL!!!
Some sort of scientists evolutionists are that no one chimed in to help you out of your hole while you were getting educated.
Bye
I think the only thing Subduction Zone was being educated on is that there are a lot of stupid people out there that know a few technical terms and think that is the end all and be all of it.

Your questions are meaningless. Understand what about these things. Here are some good answers that are correct. I will answer them in order that they appear in your post above.

My post is data.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
He is a scientist in England.
I don't know what you mean by the theory of evolution explaining DNA, do you?

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62918 Dec 3, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Oriappa does not do analogies.
What is that anyway? Oriappa, is that Spanish for butthole?

Like many anti-science whackos they attack some meaningless point and if you can't answer they declare themselves the winner. I am not completely sure what he was on about. Seems very angry. I hope he doesn't own a gun, but his ISP is Texas so not much hope there.
60s chic

Bethlehem, PA

#62919 Dec 3, 2012


An interesting half hour video about the Permian mass extinction, of which there were 2.

"After the first mass extinction, it took around 100,000 yrs. for the earth to recover. When it did, a new family of creatures ruled the world. This was the birth of the age of the dinosaurs.
One of the strange half mammal half reptile animals of the Permian world did manage to survive - a cow sized plant eater. It was the ancestor of all mammals and so ultimately of us."

How accurate this research is, I don't know, anymore than I know what's true in the Bible. I will say though that based upon their discoveries and research, it's much more logical as to where we humans came from. Sorry, but the story of Adam and Eve sounds way too far-fetched for me. I'm not saying there isn't a superior power that created the earth and universe that began it all. I really don't know anymore than anyone else does. I find it very difficult to believe that a vast population like ours, and the ones before it, are the result of the only 2 people who were suppose to have first inhabited this planet. So that would make the garden of Eden and the Serpent also fiction. It's a nice story, but not very believable in my opinion. In fact, even as a child, I was skeptical about the Genesis story, but we were strongly discouraged from disagreeing.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#62920 Dec 3, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
So what species did the E Coli bacteria that grew on citrate in aerobic environment evolve into? So increase in cell size and fitness and diversity in this bacteria is evidence for the evolution of 'bacteria'. There is no mention of bacteria evolving into a something non bacteria or did I miss anything.
I hope you are not one who would continue to move the goal posts during the course of a discussion. How about saying what you think would be the minimum degree of speciation that would satisfy you for a laboratory demonstration of "real" evolution. Then let's look at whether it is likely that an experiment in a human lab could approach what you want of it, close enough to indicate what is possible in a world wide experiment over billions of years.

In this instance you seem to be asking to see evolution in a lab cross the boundaries of one of the 5 or 6 great kingdom by which life is classified. That's a lot harder than evolving a mouse into a monkey. Could you possibly be satisfied to just look at speciation by evolution within one of the kingdoms wherein the rapidity of succeeding generations is the fastest?

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62921 Dec 3, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Truth and Facts are two different words, not really meaning the same thing. Truth prevails over facts.
Not sure what you are getting at. Truth is based on facts.

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62922 Dec 3, 2012
AustinHook wrote:
<quoted text>
But given there are cells, and that there is DNA, and that it is a very dense source of information. Either by starting from there, or, like Darwin, just by inferring from other evidence that such a mechanism could account for the results he observed, one can certainly come to many other useful conclusions.
No harm in knowing more about how it all got started, whether it is possible that an even more rudimentary kind of evolution brought it about, or whether it was actually the hand of God that started it, either way there are lots of useful further predictions that one can make and then test for consistency.
Certainly, if one knew that God explicitly started the process, as opposed to it just being an inherent possibility of his initial creation, or if one could know for sure that there was no such force remotely like the God that we conceive of that did it, one might be able to refine one's predictions even more, but that might or might not add a lot to what the basic theory of evolution yields.
Certainly also, every facet of understanding exactly how DNA works might also yield further insights, but it's still possible that those refinements would not affect the broad picture. Never concluding, never discussing, never predicting until you know every detail down to the last quantum mechanical rule or the exact will and mood of God, might mean you never get to first base. It's like as if Newton had to wait for Einstein before he worked out the three laws of mechanics, and Einstein had to wait for Newton before he even considered relativity -- it would be a total impasse. So in that sense, your requirement for someone to know great detail about DNA to be able to talk about evolution, in that sense you are just obstructing and not helping.
Exactly.

Darwin put forth the Origin of Species without ever knowing anything about genes or genetics. Knowledge of that would come later further bolster evolution by natural selection.

This demand that all things be known before you can call something a discovery is just moving the goal post.

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62923 Dec 3, 2012
60s chic wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =wn62AjIpWMwXX
An interesting half hour video about the Permian mass extinction, of which there were 2.
"After the first mass extinction, it took around 100,000 yrs. for the earth to recover. When it did, a new family of creatures ruled the world. This was the birth of the age of the dinosaurs.
One of the strange half mammal half reptile animals of the Permian world did manage to survive - a cow sized plant eater. It was the ancestor of all mammals and so ultimately of us."
How accurate this research is, I don't know, anymore than I know what's true in the Bible. I will say though that based upon their discoveries and research, it's much more logical as to where we humans came from. Sorry, but the story of Adam and Eve sounds way too far-fetched for me. I'm not saying there isn't a superior power that created the earth and universe that began it all. I really don't know anymore than anyone else does. I find it very difficult to believe that a vast population like ours, and the ones before it, are the result of the only 2 people who were suppose to have first inhabited this planet. So that would make the garden of Eden and the Serpent also fiction. It's a nice story, but not very believable in my opinion. In fact, even as a child, I was skeptical about the Genesis story, but we were strongly discouraged from disagreeing.
Is that correct? 100,000 years doesn't seem like that long a time. I can't keep up with my extinctions without a score card.

I know what you mean. I was raised in a Baptist church, but I have always been very skeptical. I have found that the Bible is rife with inconsistencies and contradictions that make the consideration of a literal interpretation laughable to me. I do consider it to be a book full of much wisdom though and historical information.

“What can I do to get the Topix”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

cops upset?

#62924 Dec 3, 2012
Orriapa paquia wrote:
<quoted text>
A little too late for today,
Why are you fixated with creationism when you cant even explain or understand evolution?
I am more than willing to explore with you your last statement on the condition that you show some common decency and respect for others opinions and if you are wrong accept it. If not its just a waste of my time.
Ill see what your answer is tomorrow
The hypocrisy of your statements are not lost on me. You are using litany of logical fallacies to argue your point which in my mind is not only disrespectful, but shows a complete disregard for the intelligence of your opponent. Then you gobble on about common decency and respect for others. You must be a professional commedian.

Level 3

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#62925 Dec 3, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
So what species did the E Coli bacteria that grew on citrate in aerobic environment evolve into? So increase in cell size and fitness and diversity in this bacteria is evidence for the evolution of 'bacteria'. There is no mention of bacteria evolving into a something non bacteria or did I miss anything. Because that would be the first thing that scientists would mention. Give it osmotic shock and that bacteria decreases its ability to survive for long periods.
Just because bacteria can become resistant to penicillin for example, doesn't mean it's going to evolve into something other than a bacteria.
WTF are you talking about? Yes, you did miss something. The whole point is that it grew on citrate in an aerobic environment; the fact that you can type that out verbatim shows that you did not investigate the issue and have no idea what you're talking about. Prior to this experiment, ecoli could not digest citric acid. The link you posted claimed that bacteria never changes into anything else. What constitutes "something else" to you? Do you want a dog to pop out of it? In a (relatively)*extremely* short time span, Ecoli was able to evolve the ability to digest citric acid. That is evolution.

Since: Nov 12

Milk River, Canada

#62926 Dec 3, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Truth and Facts are two different words, not really meaning the same thing. Truth prevails over facts.
That's an interesting distinction. Whether that fine a perspective matters for a given context should be examined carefully.

It's a fun distinction however. Lessee now, facts are generally discussed in terms of A is a B, or A has attribute B, or even just that "A is". So facts are almost indistinguishable from "truth values" in the logical/mathematical sense. Truth as an almost ultimate abstraction would seem to derive from the axioms of logic that are being assumed. I hope we all try to use the same rules of logic during a single discussion. I presume we allow derivative conclusions to be included in the realm of "facts". A fact might be the logical conclusion of a rigorous and complex chain of logic... or maybe not? What do you think? How do you see the distinction between "truths" and "facts"? How are facts different from what we might call "truth values"?

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#62927 Dec 3, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh very scientific...NOT!
Ruben suggests dinosaurs and birds have a common ancestor, meaning the common ancestor was not a dinosaur or a bird, but a glider of some sort.
If you are still stuggling and refuse to digest that some researchers disagree with the dino to bird theory then you are the one that is ignorant, not I. That is the point and you may struggle as much as you wish and get your jollies and that will still be factual. Rhuben took differences into account. That made all the difference!
Evolutionists look for similarities.
I look for differences.
There are many similarites amongst many organisms even those not closely related. These get evolutionary terms such as convergent evolution and morphological and genetic homoplasy.
When one needs to describe why a bear is not a dog, a dog is not a cat, a chimp is not a human, a whale is not a shark we do not discern them apart by the similarities. To do so would be illogical. We are more inclined to speak to the differences because these will more clearly differentiate one from another.
Evolutionists prefer to ignore the differences and look for the most ridiculously misguided similarities. Can anyone tell me why? A no brainer, really.
A bird has a reversed hallux, the thigh bone is largely fixed in place, birds are cold blooded not warm which is a big difference, birds have hollow bones, birds do not have teeth.
So although I only need only one trait, a reversed hallux, there are more differences.
Because I am not scratching around grabbing at any straw I can find to it appears that I have a heck of a lot less problems and convoluted scenarios than evos that are classifying by similarity.
You now have a bush that evos are so fed up with it I reckon that's why they want to be even vaguer and use cladistics.
Evolutionists are often silly enough to try and manipulate creationists into defining evolutionary terms. It is a sneaky way of giving their terms some validation.
Hence although evos speak in terms of derived and primative traits they are going to find more similarities to one species than another. That is inevitable. The inevitable does not demonstrate anything apart from desperation.
The point still remains that the modern bird footprints 212myo display the distinguishing feature of a bird, a reversed hallux. Evolutionists can squirm, and invent weird handed monsters or mythical theropods and still the simplest explanation is that they are just what they appear to be. Evolutionists simply will not take the data for what it is, as usual, and have to get out all their convolutions to explain it.
At least I can accept the data on the deteriorating genome as it stands, predict all dna and organs will be functional and be validated, and am clear what is or is not a bird.
So my 6 points still stand. No support or interpretation of DATA I present could possibly be worse, or more ridiculously complicated, than what evolutionists have on offer.
Subduction Zone. Have I missed your reply. Are you unable to futher justify your homolgy here?
I'd like to now throw the icing on the cake, which I generally like to save for latter.

Wiki has pictures of several Furcula (Wishbone) from theropods and of birds.

So here, something more the shape of a boomerang is 'the same' thing as a bone that is U shaped. None of them, including Arch, looks like a bird wishbone at all, except for Columba perhaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Furcula_evo...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furcula

At least a couple of you have a bit of a go, finally. So thanks.

My 6 points in support of creation are robust. Data on the deteriorating genome, negative epistasis, can be accepted without the need for complicating scenarios. Predictions made well in advance are being substantiated.

Nothing I present could be worse and more complicated than what you have to offer and I actually think creationism has the upper hand overall.

Level 3

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#62928 Dec 3, 2012
"...type that out verbatim without getting it.."

what I meant to say
60s chic

Bethlehem, PA

#62929 Dec 3, 2012
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Is that correct? 100,000 years doesn't seem like that long a time. I can't keep up with my extinctions without a score card.
I know what you mean. I was raised in a Baptist church, but I have always been very skeptical. I have found that the Bible is rife with inconsistencies and contradictions that make the consideration of a literal interpretation laughable to me. I do consider it to be a book full of much wisdom though and historical information.
I suppose, but that's what was stated in the video. You should watch it. Very interesting.

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