Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 171722 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#60477 Nov 23, 2012
NikkiShae wrote:
<quoted text>
Over 4000 thousand to choose from.
And counting.
ARGUING with IDIOTS

Chico, CA

#60478 Nov 23, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>Because you probably do not know what scientific evidence is. I have listed it before, creatards tend to ignore it.

So first, before I produce any evidence let's have a discussion on what constitutes scientific evidence.

Scientific evidence has to be evidence that everyone agrees with. And it must either support or oppose a theory or hypothesis. If it does not do either one of those it is merely noise.

So how do you support a theory or hypothesis. Mav is actually on to something when she claims that if she can show that every last bit of DNA has a function that it supports her creationist claims. Of course it would have to be every last bit including ERV's otherwise odds are that evolutionists could have an equal claim to having an interpretation of the DNA data that backs up their belief.

Theories and hypotheses make models of the real world that support their claims. For example if the theory of evolution is true the fossil record should never have a Cambrian bunny rabbit, or for that matter the 215 million year old whale that Maz claimed was found. The fossil record supports the evolutionary record. Therefore it is evidence for evolution. We have tons of fossils in museums and there are mountains of fossils in nature. All of which support the evolutionary model. Those same fossils do not support the creationist model so they cannot be used as evidence for creation. Creationists won't even make a model that describes how the fossils were laid down. They did in the past by trying to claim that Noah's flood laid them down but that is so thoroughly debunked that it is laughable to even try to use it these days.d

So there, a rather long post that describes scientific evidence. Shows how it is used. Gives an example of actual evidence that can be used by evolution and not by creation. Any questions?
So you are restricting the evidence in this debate to only "scientific" evidence?

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#60479 Nov 23, 2012
NikkiShae wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps you should invest in continued learning. This really isn't the place to learn practical physics.
A question. Were you this difficult when people were filling your head with religion?
That same question is met for you, though in the other way.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#60480 Nov 23, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Here's one specific piece of evidence - chromosome 2 in humans. All chromosomes have telomeres and centromeres ( one telomere on each end and one centromere in the middle). However, humans have one chromosome (2) that has 4 telomeres and 2 centromeres. In the middle, there are two telomeres connected end to end where the centromere would usually be. Each end has it's own telomere, and then on either side, in between both sets of telomeres, there is a centromere. Based on this strange configuration, it seems that we have a fused chromosome. We have 23 chromosomes. All members of homindae except us have 24. So, at some point after we diverged, 2 of our chromosomes fused, which is why we have one less than the rest of our family.
I recommend you do some light reading on the subject, both because it's hard to grasp what I just told you based on my short description, and because you are incredibly stupid.
Oh you snobb after all the woffle and pointless banter don't you tell me to go do some reading. You still are gobsmacked from your junk dna fiasco.

So far you have provided nothing to choose from, In case you do not realize all your choices relate to the same event. Supplying some research link would have been preferable to your repeating what I already know evos assume.

OK, here is the latest news. The so called human ch2 fusion site being the same as chimp 2a and 2b is rubbish. A secnond centromere remnant is based on algorithmic magic and nothing else. That's it in a nut shell.

So I suppose if you don't have to provide links then neither do I.
But I'll supply some. Here is a creo take and refute to the human ch2 conundrum.

Other problems with the fusion theory include the fact that standard cytogenetic techniques, such as C-banding, have detected significantly less heterochromatic centromeric DNA on the long arm of human chromosome 2 than predicted by the fusion model.

Evolutionists claim this is because the “bulk of the centromeric repetitive DNA has been lost”.13 Conversely, it is more likely that the so-called cryptic centromeric DNA never existed.

http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1

This below is not from a creationist site.

Human telomeres, with the exception of those in human sperm, are much shorter than telomeres in non-human primates.

http://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/tel...

So, unless you are suggesting that human ch2 and chimp 2a and 2b are sex genes then the human telomeres for a start are different at the ends then any non human primate. If a Robertson translocation occured in mankind at all it does not appear to be the result of the fusion of 2 ape genes.

Then there is this also not from a creationist site.
Such sequences are also present In the human centromere (the middle of the chromosome), but at one point the order changes abruptly to 5'-CCCTAA-3', the reverse complement of the standard pattern, as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of ancestral ape-like chromosomes.

http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Human_Ape_chr...

So there are many inserted genes, sequences that run counter to predicted in the fusion model and telomeres in mankind that are shorter than any other non human ape.

Hence in actual fact the story of human chromosome 2 being the result of an end to end fusion of 2 ape genes is highly unlikely.
We can discuss the improbability of such a translocation that may result in genetic sterility and speciation and how that became fixed in the population another time.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#60481 Nov 23, 2012
ARGUING with IDIOTS wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are restricting the evidence in this debate to only "scientific" evidence?
If you want to have a scientific debate it has to be limited to scientific evidence.

Do you disagree with my definition? I assure you that scientists might tweak it slightly, but they would have very strong agreement with that definition for scientific evidence.

Level 3

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60482 Nov 23, 2012
NikkiShae wrote:
<quoted text>
Like a dog with a bone, don't expect Mav to drop this. Mav lives vicariously through ambitious conclusions.
How right you are. In this analogy, I think the bone is covered with shit, but Maz thinks it's covered with peanut butter.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#60483 Nov 23, 2012
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>What is ironic to me is that TOE does not in any way deny the presence of a supernatural entity.....science does not say yes or no, it only requires proof so it can't say goddidit until there is empirical evidence. Still, that makes them mad enough to spit.

Go figure.
It's not the job of any theory derived from scientific method to deny such things. Otherwise SZ's spaghetti monster would have been refuted in peer reviewed research long ago.

Level 3

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60484 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh you snobb after all the woffle and pointless banter don't you tell me to go do some reading. You still are gobsmacked from your junk dna fiasco.
So far you have provided nothing to choose from, In case you do not realize all your choices relate to the same event. Supplying some research link would have been preferable to your repeating what I already know evos assume.
OK, here is the latest news. The so called human ch2 fusion site being the same as chimp 2a and 2b is rubbish. A secnond centromere remnant is based on algorithmic magic and nothing else. That's it in a nut shell.
So I suppose if you don't have to provide links then neither do I.
But I'll supply some. Here is a creo take and refute to the human ch2 conundrum.
Other problems with the fusion theory include the fact that standard cytogenetic techniques, such as C-banding, have detected significantly less heterochromatic centromeric DNA on the long arm of human chromosome 2 than predicted by the fusion model.
Evolutionists claim this is because the “bulk of the centromeric repetitive DNA has been lost”.13 Conversely, it is more likely that the so-called cryptic centromeric DNA never existed.
http://creation.com/chromosome-2-fusion-1
This below is not from a creationist site.
Human telomeres, with the exception of those in human sperm, are much shorter than telomeres in non-human primates.
http://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/tel...
So, unless you are suggesting that human ch2 and chimp 2a and 2b are sex genes then the human telomeres for a start are different at the ends then any non human primate. If a Robertson translocation occured in mankind at all it does not appear to be the result of the fusion of 2 ape genes.
Then there is this also not from a creationist site.
Such sequences are also present In the human centromere (the middle of the chromosome), but at one point the order changes abruptly to 5'-CCCTAA-3', the reverse complement of the standard pattern, as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of ancestral ape-like chromosomes.
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Human_Ape_chr...
So there are many inserted genes, sequences that run counter to predicted in the fusion model and telomeres in mankind that are shorter than any other non human ape.
Hence in actual fact the story of human chromosome 2 being the result of an end to end fusion of 2 ape genes is highly unlikely.
We can discuss the improbability of such a translocation that may result in genetic sterility and speciation and how that became fixed in the population another time.
It's always really funny when someone tries to talk about something authoratatively when they really haven't the slightest clue what they're talking about. That's when you get little gems like this:

Such sequences are also present In the human centromere (the middle of the chromosome), but at one point the order changes abruptly to 5'-CCCTAA-3', the reverse complement of the standard pattern, as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of ancestral ape-like chromosomes.

You posted that, unwittingly supporting my argument. Good job, dolt.

And you're nuts if you think I will consider for a second some rubbish from a creationist site.

You also clearly do not understand the issue - you posted something about our telomeres being shorter than apes thinking that it damaged my argument. It does not. At all. The fact that our telomeres are shorter does not mean that chromosome 2 is not a fusion.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#60485 Nov 23, 2012
ARGUING with IDIOTS wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are restricting the evidence in this debate to only "scientific" evidence?
You can see by subduction zones reply to you who is actually the idiot.

A cambrian bunny rabbit is about the best that other idiot Dawkins could come up with to suggest the joke TOE meets the scientific criteria for falsifiability along with the predictive ability of a crystal ball. eg junk dna.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#60486 Nov 23, 2012
I did not look up my definition for scientific evidence. It is the definition that I have learned over the years. But for kicks I Google searched the term and the first thing that came up was the Wiki article on scientific evidence"
Scientific evidence is evidence which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_evide...

So I present once again the fossil record as evidence for evolution. That is going to be millions if not billions of fossils throughout the world's universities, museums, schools, and private collections. All of them to date support evolution and not creation.

Level 3

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60487 Nov 23, 2012
Such sequences are also present In the human centromere (the middle of the chromosome), but at one point the order changes abruptly to 5'-CCCTAA-3', the reverse complement of the standard pattern, as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of ancestral ape-like chromosomes.

Do you know why this is such good evidence for fusion? You posted it.

So hilarious. That's the danger of copy pasting. I did encourage you to learn a little bit about the subject first, but you had to go and make yourself look stupid. "Latest news." LOl

Level 3

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60488 Nov 23, 2012
"sequences that run counter to predicted in the fusion model"

AHAHAHAHAH god you're making me laugh. Goodness you are a comedic gem. Do you even understand a word of what you just posted? Clearly not, if you did, you wouldn't have posted evidence for me.

Level 1

Since: Jul 12

Everton, Australia

#60489 Nov 23, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>How right you are. In this analogy, I think the bone is covered with shit, but Maz thinks it's covered with peanut butter.
You can remove the shit residing in your mouth by responding to the quackery you callenged in regard to human ch2.

We creos can all see who is siting shit faced here at the moment with their junk dna in one hand and their hand waving in the other.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#60490 Nov 23, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text>That same question is met for you, though in the other way.
No it was actually a peaceful shift in my understanding. You're consumed by fear. Fear of judgment from something you can't even remotely prove.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#60491 Nov 23, 2012
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmmm...how do you figure that?
Your assertions speaks volume of that.
Next?
ARGUING with IDIOTS

Chico, CA

#60492 Nov 23, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>If you want to have a scientific debate it has to be limited to scientific evidence.

Do you disagree with my definition? I assure you that scientists might tweak it slightly, but they would have very strong agreement with that definition for scientific evidence.
Science is limited and can't be used to prove everything!

Do you feel your position is so weak that you must stack the deck in your favor?

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#60493 Nov 23, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>No, I just think you're dumb. I enjoy intelligent conversation. That's not something you can offer.
Likewise.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#60494 Nov 23, 2012
NikkiShae wrote:
<quoted text>
"God is"
"God does"
"God will"
You seem to know a lot about something you can't produce for the teaming masses to observe.
And yet these so called masses are seeking for him daily.
ARGUING with IDIOTS

Chico, CA

#60495 Nov 23, 2012
timn17 wrote:
Such sequences are also present In the human centromere (the middle of the chromosome), but at one point the order changes abruptly to 5'-CCCTAA-3', the reverse complement of the standard pattern, as predicted by a telomere to telomere fusion of ancestral ape-like chromosomes.

Do you know why this is such good evidence for fusion? You posted it.

So hilarious. That's the danger of copy pasting. I did encourage you to learn a little bit about the subject first, but you had to go and make yourself look stupid. "Latest news." LOl
In your above post it mentions a "standard pattern", do you agree there is a standard pattern?

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#60496 Nov 23, 2012
NikkiShae wrote:
<quoted text>
Rule number one to being a Christian, accept Christ as savior and follow his word. Give me proof that Isaac Newton did this. Go!
He ofcourse believed that there is a God.
Even though he disagreed on the trinity. He will never be like you guys. Period.

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