Evolution vs. Creation

There are 163927 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60152 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
So I gather that seeing as no evolutionist here can defend their theory I suggest that the conclusion to the deabte is that evolutionsists really have no clue.
They can talk alot, make big claims and point to mountains of outdated speculative rubbish. What they can't do is defend thier stance in the evolution vs creation debate with any more than 'they said so' and a gutful of philosophical rhetoric. EVOLUTIONISTS...YOU LOOSE!
I DID defend it. You haven't addressed it yet. You didn't this time, and you didn't when I presented it to you the first time. And neither did any of your buddies on here when I presented it to them a dozen times before that. Bub, you already lost when you came here. Go back to 885, read it again, then after that then maybe we can discuss ERV's next. Nothing philosophical about evolution, only testable scientific evidence.

Besides Maz, you're "scientific alternative" is GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC! So even if we PRETEND for a moment that your mighty mega-brain had falsified evolution all would need to do is say "Well hey! You can't prove your BS and just invoke magic so we can use magic too! And our magic is better than yours so there! I WINZ!!!"

Duh.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60153 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes Gods creation is intelligent...But no molecules to man, my friend....
We may also be special, despite the Copernican principle.....
Mathematicians’ theory means Earth may be the center of the universe
http://wallacegsmith.wordpress.com/2010/10/22...
Why YES! OF COURSE! Some random religious apologist on the net certainly knows what he's talking about! He just can't get his religious opinions published in scientific journals because of the evil atheist evolutionist world-wide conspiracy!!!

>:-(
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60154 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
As I said previously you lot are hiding behind philosophy and trying to score fruitless points. The point is there is no evidence to suggest there is no God, so stop chasing your tail into philosophical conundrums and walkes doesn the garden path of evasion.
Don't have any philosophical conundrums.(shrug) Philosophy is irrelevant to science.

There's no evidence to suggest there is no God, but there's no scientific evidence to suggest there IS either.

And by the same token, there's no evidence to suggest there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster.
MazHere wrote:
What's up?????????? Is science too hard for you evolutionists to get your head around?
Not at all. It's only too hard for creationists. That's why they prefer Goddidit with magic.

Can't get much simpler than that.(shrug)
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#60155 Nov 23, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Chuck IS a liar, but that's beside the point in this case. However Charles in this case too is being unreasonable. He made a claim with zero evidence. Scientifically speaking, the existence of spirits and demons cannot be ruled out. But without evidence they cannot be ruled in either.
So until he can provide objective testable scientific evidence to support his claim there is no reason to lend any credence to his claims.
<quoted text>
Unfortunately when one looks at the actual paper there is nothing about Quantum interference of large organic molecules to suggest the existence of the soul. Of course internet being what it is, and that even includes popular websites directed at Joe-Public, it is inevitable that complicated subjects like quantum physics is twisted by some wishful thinking crank who thinks it supports quantum woo. And this is precisely what you've got a case of right here.
Besides, even if it DID prove spirituality it's quite obvious it's proving the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
It sounds more like chasing the force. Midi-chlorians are a close description of mitochondria. When you think about it, mDNA could be in an evolutionary tug of war with regular DNA, but is far too simple to have much of a chance. The question would be whether or not mDNA has effective leverage over the expression of regular DNA.

Under normal circumstances, I'd say that mDNA would express itself as simple prejudicial treatment in favor of the maternal bloodline. If you really want to get into fantastic speculation, you'd probably have to introduce some sort of biological mechanism that works at the sub-atomic level. Then you might be interested in "the force" or "immortal souls". No evidence, not interested.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60156 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
Unfortunately, the evolutionary fiasco played out like the changing scenes and scenarios that support the overarching TOE is much like any bed time story and cannot be proven to not exist. That is why TOE is virtually unfalsifiable and does not meet the a credible standard of falsifiability.
Of course it's falsifiable. All you need do is find JUST ONE violation of nested hierarchies.

Just one.

Find us just one human being with a DNA makeup of a cactus.

Just one pre-Cambrian rabbit.

Just one buffalo with a bunch of ape-specific ERV's in orthologous positions.

Just one fossil with feathers and three middle-ear bones.

Just one Centaur.

Just one dog giving birth to a cat.

Just one example of a fully-formed adult animal brought into being via magical poofing.

Evolution falsified.
MazHere wrote:
Hence, my question in relation to evolutionists predictions around non coding dna. What supports TOE? If in 50 years time it is demonstrated that all of the genome is functional, as creationists predict, what then? Does that mean TOE is flse?
Nope. Nothing wrong with DNA having function. In fact it's expected. It's the PATTERN of DNA that's important, not whether or not it has function. Now if the DNA falls outside nested hierarchies THEN evolution is false.

On the other hand birds do not have teeth. Plus all the animals on Noah's Ark were vegies anyway, right? And yet chicken (occasionally) have teeth.

Creationism falsified.

Oh, except for the bit where you invoke Jewmagic to rescue all creationist failures in which case magic is non-predictable, non-verifiable, non-testable and hence non-falsifiable.

And therefore non-scientific.
MazHere wrote:
Not on Darwins death bed! Hence although TOE can make a few scant predictions, it is virtually unfalsifiable and has little predictability.
I see. That's why evolution uses SIFTER which uses evolutionary algorithms to predict protein function with 96% accuracy.

So far the creationist version has an accuracy of an amazing...

um...

ZERO percent.

Probably because they don't have anything close which can compare. Darn.
MazHere wrote:
All faiths can interpret data to suit themselves and come up with their own algorithmic magic to support themselves.
Ah, sorry, yes. SIFTER really is just magic.(wink wink)

Isn't it embarrassing when our magic really IS better than your god's?
MazHere wrote:
I think to be closed to only one view is problematic.
The thing is it seriously looks like creos are on better tracks than evos.
Of COURSE! That's why they can't get creationism published in scientific journals, that every single field disagrees with it, that there is no "scientific theory" of creationism, the Government supports it, as do all the world's major scientific organizations, AND the courts, since you guys have lost EVERY single court case since 1925.
MazHere wrote:
General creationist predictions on junk dna and so called vestigal organs are being supported more as time goes on. That appears to be a fact. These are stable predictions.
If proven in time, I suggest evolutionists will have lost a huge support for evolutionary theory, despite any handwaving they come up with to explain it.
Sorry, but if misrepresenting non-coding DNA is all you got then no wonder you're not getting anywhere. What's the point of nested hierarchies? None under creationism.

Nuts.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60157 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
<quoted text>
All creationists please not a person that has many word and not one shred of support.
Look pal, when you klearn what an actual refute should look like I'll give you are serious reply.
For now you are just a woffler without a link or science to be seen.
Don't be silly Maz. Your alternative is Jewmagic. Refutation isn't even in your dictionary.

First you need to learn what the big words MEAN, THEN you can start learning some BASIC science.

... like what happens when you put your hand in hot water.

And maybe twenty/thirty years later you might be able to take part in a science discussion, at a layman's level.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60158 Nov 23, 2012
HEY MAZ! I asked you AGES ago if you could provide us with the "scientific theory" of creationism. For some reason you still haven't been able to do that. I've been asking that question for about 7 years. The scientific community has been waiting about 3,000.

Still just GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC as usual?

Thought so.
Gstspkr

United States

#60159 Nov 23, 2012
Benny wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL. Charles Darwin was a racist. There's no prove that all life arose from one common ancestor. I am not surprised that the evolutionist theories are collapsing. Atheist science defend Darwinism like a religion. What a big fraud! One Hoax after another. They are so quick to announce their fake evolution discoveries, but they are not so quick to expose their mistakes and disproven conjectures.
Its a political philosophy, Marxism demands there be no other god than government. Evolution is political science as global warming is. It's pushed and and used by those supporting elitist governmental control through the media and educational system. Notice how they fail to produce evidence, but instead, isolate individuals, polarize them with fake controversy, and destroy them with repeated lies. This is a reflection on society, how we rush to push our neighbors under the bus. Guess what. If we are not skeptical of everyone, and give someone a pass, they'll soon push us under the bus.
anonymous

Franklin, PA

#60160 Nov 23, 2012
MazHere wrote:
It is usually evos that say creos don't want to talk science and all you evos appear to be doing is scurrying as far away from science as possible.
Every statement I have made I can support from your own researchers. If all you can do is say ' TOE is right because they said so, then I say, that 'they' have been wrong many many times before.eg human knucklewalking ancestry, junk dna, 2 turned to three domains of life, the death of single celled LUCA, brain size tied to bipedalism, Mendellian inheritance being the only form of inheritance refuted by HGT and epigentic inheritance etc.
I can support the scientific statements I make in previous posts and here.
The consortium has assigned some sort of function to roughly 80% of the genome, including more than 70,000 ‘promoter’ regions — the sites, just upstream of genes, where proteins bind to control gene expression — and nearly 400,000 ‘enhancer’ regions that regulate expression of distant genes
http://www.nature.com/news/encode-the-human-e ...
I have stated, in line with the thread topic, that evos have woffled on about junk dna being absolute proof of evolution. That claim is slowly turning to mud. Toe is made of these little balls of rot that are offered as support but are no more than flavour of the month.
A creationist prediction is, and has always been, that in time it will be found that all dna will be found to be functional. The same goes for vestigial organs.
This prediction is being validated as time goes on as any good prediction should. This is opposed to evolutionary theory that generally comprises flavour of the month.
So what say you evos about junk dna? What supports TOE? Some junk, no junk, all junk, how much junk?????? TOE is an anything goes theory with the hit and miss predictability of a crystal ball.
Toe is a philosophy of faith (No need for God) just like any other and is, just like any other faith, trying to find some support for its credibility. Theist evos just have their own slant and IDers are somewhere in the middle.
None of you can answer this above. You can woffle on, and say bla bla, but not one of you has had a word to say about the above.
I am not misrepresenting anything. I do not represent any particular form of creationism.
The thread topic is around junk dna. If you want to continue to go around in cirlces and make vague statements then this is what has been demonstrated.
On the whole evolutionists have not been able to speak to junk dna and its implications for creation or evolution.
Indeed there are no implications for TOE because it is virtually unfalsifiable as are all faiths.
However creationists are much better at making stable predictions.
So as far as the thread topic is concerned the Professor, whatever faith he is, has a good point.
Evolution theory has been around far longer than the idea of junk DNA.

You're right about one thing. Evolution is not provable. That is why it remains a theory. Modern science allows such things. We can't prove quantum theory either because we cannot observe nature at that level. We come up with reasonable methods for making assumptions but acknowledge the possibility that we may be wrong.

For the most part, revisions haven't been required and when they are required, they are usually minor. We simply don't have access to the physical world at the subatomic level and cannot control the chaos of those events. Show us how to observe and control those things, and there's something to talk about.

For now, religion is about as significant as thinking of ourselves as robots being manufactured and ridden by our midi-chlorean friends. Do we ask our cars where they want to go today? No. If I'm a glorified transformer robot, I think I'll just forgo attempts to pick my brains out through my nose, metaphysically speaking!
Gstspkr

United States

#60162 Nov 23, 2012
The Dude wrote:
HEY MAZ! I asked you AGES ago if you could provide us with the "scientific theory" of creationism. For some reason you still haven't been able to do that. I've been asking that question for about 7 years. The scientific community has been waiting about 3,000.
Still just GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC as usual?
Thought so.
The rocks that I stacked up when I was a kid, are still rocks. The caterpillars I caught never turned into a fish or a snake, but miraculously stayed moths or butterflies. Tadpoles didn't turn into Rihanna or earthworms, but miraculously remained frogs or toads. Most " irrefutable" evidence was fraudulent like the evolving moths, or pilt- down man or Lucy. And the the famous lightning in a mudhole proclamation forming amino acids. Do me a favor, and take apart your car piece by piece and scatter all over your back yard. After this, lets wager in 10 years, that those car pieces will evolve back into your Buick ready and running. And you think we believe in MAGIC ?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60163 Nov 23, 2012
Gstspkr wrote:
Its a political philosophy, Marxism demands there be no other god than government.
If that's the case then how come half of Russia (for example) are Christian?

Marxism has nothing to do with theology at all whatsoever (not even a ickle tiny widdle bit). The opposite of Marxism is NOT theism, the opposite of Marxism is Capitalism.

So why is it that so many anti-Marxists oppose it without even bothering to learn anything about it?
Gstspkr wrote:
Evolution is political science as global warming is.
Why?

Why do you hate kittens?

:-(
Gstspkr wrote:
It's pushed and and used by those supporting elitist governmental control through the media and educational system. Notice how they fail to produce evidence, but instead, isolate individuals, polarize them with fake controversy, and destroy them with repeated lies. This is a reflection on society, how we rush to push our neighbors under the bus. Guess what. If we are not skeptical of everyone, and give someone a pass, they'll soon push us under the bus.
Sorry, you must be confusing evolution with creationism. There is no scientific controversy. Evolution is scientific. It has plenty of evidence. Creationists then manufacture a controversy where there is none and never really has been. They do so for political reasons. They claim evolution is unscientific then rather hypocritically offer magic as a "valid alternative". If you're interested at all in how science demonstrates evolution it is done so here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/T9Q...

Evolution hasn't been under any serious doubt by the scientific community since Crick discovered DNA. The only genuine debates over evolution are over the specifics of HOW it occurred, not whether or not it DID occur. And this kind of thing is normal in any scientific field. On the other hand if you have an alternative explanation that does a better job of explaining the evidence then by all means, please do so. So I don't wanna hear about how the "mean old evilushunists" are "suppressing" the poor little innocent Christians from getting their ideas out to everyone. Oh, and don't forget there's nothing stopping them from doing their own scientific research. They even have their own labs...

Or shall we just skip the BS and just say that you don't believe in evolution cuz you think Goddidit with magic?

It would save us all a lot of time.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60164 Nov 23, 2012
anonymous wrote:
You're right about one thing. Evolution is not provable. That is why it remains a theory. Modern science allows such things. We can't prove quantum theory either because we cannot observe nature at that level. We come up with reasonable methods for making assumptions but acknowledge the possibility that we may be wrong.
Indeed. In fact in science, "theory" is as high as it gets. NOTHING gets "proven". Theories do NOT get promoted to "laws" after a certain amount of evidence comes in. This is because all scientific concepts need to have the potential for falsification. Without which theories can't make valid testable scientific predictions.

Just a point about QM though, it IS scientifically testable, and so far it does so successfully. For more info on that area though, seek Polymath, our resident physicist around these parts.
Gstspkr

United States

#60165 Nov 23, 2012
anonymous wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution theory has been around far longer than the idea of junk DNA.
You're right about one thing. Evolution is not provable. That is why it remains a theory. Modern science allows such things. We can't prove quantum theory either because we cannot observe nature at that level. We come up with reasonable methods for making assumptions but acknowledge the possibility that we may be wrong.
For the most part, revisions haven't been required and when they are required, they are usually minor. We simply don't have access to the physical world at the subatomic level and cannot control the chaos of those events. Show us how to observe and control those things, and there's something to talk about.
For now, religion is about as significant as thinking of ourselves as robots being manufactured and ridden by our midi-chlorean friends. Do we ask our cars where they want to go today? No. If I'm a glorified transformer robot, I think I'll just forgo attempts to pick my brains out through my nose, metaphysically speaking!
But mysteriously, it arrived in the same time frame as Engels and Marx. Master confiscators, who proposed the rights of the working man and revolution only to seize power and ruthlessly, by force oppress any who opposed them including many revolutionary working men. They explicitly write of the need to abolish God in order to promote the worship of superiors to which they immediately promoted themselves. After all they couldn't allow the peasants assign any meaning to such vile biblical versus like "God is a respecter of no man", meaning we are all equally faulty, themselves included.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#60166 Nov 23, 2012
Gstspkr wrote:
The rocks that I stacked up when I was a kid, are still rocks. The caterpillars I caught never turned into a fish or a snake, but miraculously stayed moths or butterflies. Tadpoles didn't turn into Rihanna or earthworms, but miraculously remained frogs or toads.
So what you're saying is you've been around for a tiny fraction of the length of time of the Earth and you want to see total changes of biological DOMAINS?

Well done. You just told everyone you never had any science education at all.
Gstspkr wrote:
Most " irrefutable" evidence was fraudulent like the evolving moths, or pilt- down man or Lucy. And the the famous lightning in a mudhole proclamation forming amino acids. Do me a favor, and take apart your car piece by piece and scatter all over your back yard. After this, lets wager in 10 years, that those car pieces will evolve back into your Buick ready and running. And you think we believe in MAGIC ?
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. This is not a problem.

Also those fake fossils you mentioned like Piltdown et al, according to you they are NOT fake. Because you REJECT the science involved that demonstrated them to be fake.

You don't know this because not only have you not had an education you decided to find out about science from a bunch of idiots stuck in Dark Age thinking who think everything happened by magic due to an invisible Jewish wizard.

And hey, maybe it did.(shrug)

But it used evolution.

Sorry if you don't like that.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#60167 Nov 23, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> To God be the glory.
Without God, there is no earth or universe( planets).
Still no evidence to support this assertion, and so far all evidence suggests the opposite to be true. Why do you lie for your god?

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#60168 Nov 23, 2012
Gstspkr wrote:
<quoted text>
But mysteriously, it arrived in the same time frame as Engels and Marx. Master confiscators, who proposed the rights of the working man and revolution only to seize power and ruthlessly, by force oppress any who opposed them including many revolutionary working men. They explicitly write of the need to abolish God in order to promote the worship of superiors to which they immediately promoted themselves. After all they couldn't allow the peasants assign any meaning to such vile biblical versus like "God is a respecter of no man", meaning we are all equally faulty, themselves included.
Why do you hate humanity and your life?
Gstspkr

United States

#60169 Nov 23, 2012
Maybe it programmed the organisms to be able to adjust within certain parameters. You seem to think that that if you jump off a cliff, you'll evolve wings before hit the bottom. Perhaps the Russian citizenry discovered the Christians weren't public enemy #1 like Marx, Lenin, and Stalin claimed. Maybe as they witnessed them being shipped off to the Gulag didn't make their own life any better. And maybe they saw something real instead of listening to a bunch of empty promises from their government, media, and professors.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#60170 Nov 23, 2012
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> To God be the glory.
Without God, there is no earth or universe( planets).
That's the motto of the Jesuits.

"Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam".

Are you sure you're not a Closet Catholic?

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#60171 Nov 23, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Faith is not evidence. So you are claiming that there is no evidence for creationism. I agree.
Worst whuppin' I ever got, I think.

Religious Knowledge class - I raised my hand and asked a question.

"So, "Faith" is a firm belief that a thing is true, despite a lack of evidence?"

"Yes."

"Isn't that also the definition of "delusion"?"

I don't remember much after that.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#60172 Nov 23, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Aye, God is servant to its worshippers.
Apparently.
Why not?

They invented Him.

Or Her.

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