Op-ed: The Weird Relationship Between Mormons and Marriage

There are 20 comments on the Advocate story from Feb 24, 2014, titled Op-ed: The Weird Relationship Between Mormons and Marriage. In it, Advocate reports that:

Earlier this month, the U.S. government expanded recognition of same-sex marriages in federal legal matters.

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Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#335 Mar 3, 2014
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
Sadly, far fewer rules would mean chaos at this point, and there are far to many of us to go back to the wild west. We can't go back to a farming/hunting economy. And, history has proven that we cannot trust big business to make all it's own rules. There needs to be some sort of central playing field - and that's the government.
Clearly the only two options are to have a welfare state that encourages and rewards poor decision making, with an ever increasing level of handouts commensurate to the degree of poor decision making together with no common sense restrictions, such as drug testing welfare recipients (eff I had to get drug tested to get the job that pays for these folks to get their nearly no-strings attached welfare benefits, why shouldn't they get drug tested to receive them), absent taking positive steps to ween yourself off the government teet limits on how long you can be on aid, and further restrictions on you if you continue to have children while not being able to provide for the ones you already have, or return to the wild west where everyone fends for themselves.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#336 Mar 3, 2014
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Clearly the only two options are to have a welfare state that encourages and rewards poor decision making, with an ever increasing level of handouts commensurate to the degree of poor decision making together with no common sense restrictions, such as drug testing welfare recipients (eff I had to get drug tested to get the job that pays for these folks to get their nearly no-strings attached welfare benefits, why shouldn't they get drug tested to receive them), absent taking positive steps to ween yourself off the government teet limits on how long you can be on aid, and further restrictions on you if you continue to have children while not being able to provide for the ones you already have, or return to the wild west where everyone fends for themselves.
since we have shown that the wild west doesn't work, there really is no option, is there...

there is no reason to take things as far as your hyperbole. one can look around the globe and see nations balancing a vast spectrum of freedoms and socialistic policies. in fact some far more socialistic countries are doing far better than the US, better educated citizens, heatlhier citizens. less national debt, better economy...

when one looks at the real choices and not ridiculous rhetoric, the world looks much rosier than your fantasy scenario...
Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#337 Mar 3, 2014
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>since we have shown that the wild west doesn't work, there really is no option, is there...
<face palm> The entire point of my post was that we DON'T only have two choices, a) one being welfare state with zero accountability or expectation from those who receive welfare benefits (as it is now) and b) the wild west. So, yes, we do have options. There are many options in between the socialized utopia that you want and the wild west.

That is the hyperbole you like to engage in, that we only have two options. A) A situation, as it now and that you want even more of, where you can be the biggest eff up possible, set yourself up so that you can only work at Arby’s and despite this think it’s a great idea and that the road to prosperity is to have a bunchy of kids you can’t afford and in return for this wise astute decision making the government will reward you with more and more welfare benefits or b) the wild west situation where you and your kids starve on the street.

This is not true. This is not reality. There are many things in between these two extremes. It is you who is playing with hyperbole for suggesting we can only have one or the other of these two extremes.
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>there is no reason to take things as far as your hyperbole. one can look around the globe and see nations balancing a vast spectrum of freedoms and socialistic policies. in fact some far more socialistic countries are doing far better than the US, better educated citizens, heatlhier citizens. less national debt, better economy...
There are a lot of socialized country that are doing terrible, too … France, Spain, Greece, Italy. Anyone can cherry pick. To the extent certain socialized countries thrive, it is largely to do with their cultural values ... cultural values that include placing a high value on education and achievement, which is largely lacking in certain segments of our society.
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>when one looks at the real choices and not ridiculous rhetoric, the world looks much rosier than your fantasy scenario...
There is nothing fantasy about what I said. There aren’t only two options a) your socialized utopia and b) wild west, as you pretend is the case. It is you who live in a fantasy world if you claim this to be the case.
INFIDEL

Grants, NM

#338 Mar 3, 2014
Fundies R Mentally ill wrote:
<quoted text>
You sick bigot, your fact free anecdote applies just as well - not very, but more often - to str8 men.
What doesn't apply equally to both groups is the str8 male penchant for violently raping women, as evidenced by crime statistics. Go defame heterosexuality on that basis...I mean, going by your "logic."
My, my... An angry homosexual who can not read and took offence with my post. My apology for offending you. I guess you did not read the part about sexuality, gay or straight, not being the issue? The poison killing our souls is covetousness not sexuality. I chose to use an example of unbridled lust on the gay side and use the term "bugger" because the gay rights movement is the new sacred cow to many people. I grew up in the Middle East surrounded by polygamists and I empathize with their persecution. I assumed that if I threw a barb at gay people it might lead to someone rising to their defense and it did. Well I feel the same way about polygamists. My best friend came from a polygamist family. His father was a kind, generous man who never mistreated anybody. People throw around stories of polygamist abuses like popcorn so I painted a vile picture using homosexuality as the canvas because society wants to see the benign side of homosexuality right now. Any lust can be turned into something vile and any lifestyle can be righteous if it is engaged in righteously.
The scripture says, "by their fruits shall you know them". I know both homosexuals and heterosexuals who are righteous as well as those who are vile and abusive. I never met a greedy person who was righteous. Most Mormons I have met are decent people. As far as polygamy goes... they were bullied into giving that up a long time ago by judgmental, hypocrites. You know the type? People who would say homosexuality is righteous but polygamy isn't are just that type. People who condemn homosexuality but accept divorce are just that type. People who condemn lust for the flesh but glorify the love of money are exactly that type. Think I'm a bigot if it makes you comfortable but I apply the exact same standards to everyone.
concerned poster

Bartlett, IL

#339 Mar 3, 2014
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>since we have shown that the wild west doesn't work, there really is no option, is there...
there is no reason to take things as far as your hyperbole. one can look around the globe and see nations balancing a vast spectrum of freedoms and socialistic policies. in fact some far more socialistic countries are doing far better than the US, better educated citizens, heatlhier citizens. less national debt, better economy...
when one looks at the real choices and not ridiculous rhetoric, the world looks much rosier than your fantasy scenario...
How do these people continue to call themselves "fiscal conservatives" when they STILL think spending millions to save save ten's of thousands on drug testing poor people? That idiocy has already been shown to lose money in several states. And it's nowhere near "small government" like they claim they want. Some of these people envision a Sparta America where it's sink or swim. They assume that since America is "the greatest country ever" we can only get better by punishing as many people as possible, encouraging others not to fail- or else... Meanwhile, other countries encourage their citizens to succeed while people here preach to secede.
Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#342 Mar 3, 2014
Sterkfontein Swartkrans

Lambertville, NJ

#343 Mar 3, 2014
josef smith was called a prophet-dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb !!!!!!

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#344 Mar 3, 2014
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
<face palm> The entire point of my post was that we DON'T only have two choices, a) one being welfare state with zero accountability or expectation from those who receive welfare benefits (as it is now) and b) the wild west. So, yes, we do have options. There are many options in between the socialized utopia that you want and the wild west.
That is the hyperbole you like to engage in, that we only have two options. A) A situation, as it now and that you want even more of, where you can be the biggest eff up possible, set yourself up so that you can only work at Arby’s and despite this think it’s a great idea and that the road to prosperity is to have a bunchy of kids you can’t afford and in return for this wise astute decision making the government will reward you with more and more welfare benefits or b) the wild west situation where you and your kids starve on the street.
This is not true. This is not reality. There are many things in between these two extremes. It is you who is playing with hyperbole for suggesting we can only have one or the other of these two extremes.
<quoted text>
There are a lot of socialized country that are doing terrible, too … France, Spain, Greece, Italy. Anyone can cherry pick. To the extent certain socialized countries thrive, it is largely to do with their cultural values ... cultural values that include placing a high value on education and achievement, which is largely lacking in certain segments of our society.
<quoted text>
There is nothing fantasy about what I said. There aren’t only two options a) your socialized utopia and b) wild west, as you pretend is the case. It is you who live in a fantasy world if you claim this to be the case.
clearly i do not want a socialist country as i am a conservative, as all my posts clearly show. your sarcasm was poor, that is why i misunderstood.

my point is clear and valid. the" free market" is a myth well not really, that is exactly what the failed state of Russia has now a thugocracy. no rules but what those with the money and control say are the rules...

and not all socialism blends fail. yes, you point to the ones that were obviously misrun. the ones that weren't are doing great.

reality....it is fun!

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#345 Mar 3, 2014
INFIDEL wrote:
<quoted text>
My, my... An angry homosexual who can not read and took offence with my post. My apology for offending you. I guess you did not read the part about sexuality, gay or straight, not being the issue? The poison killing our souls is covetousness not sexuality. I chose to use an example of unbridled lust on the gay side and use the term "bugger" because the gay rights movement is the new sacred cow to many people. I grew up in the Middle East surrounded by polygamists and I empathize with their persecution. I assumed that if I threw a barb at gay people it might lead to someone rising to their defense and it did. Well I feel the same way about polygamists. My best friend came from a polygamist family. His father was a kind, generous man who never mistreated anybody. People throw around stories of polygamist abuses like popcorn so I painted a vile picture using homosexuality as the canvas because society wants to see the benign side of homosexuality right now. Any lust can be turned into something vile and any lifestyle can be righteous if it is engaged in righteously.
The scripture says, "by their fruits shall you know them". I know both homosexuals and heterosexuals who are righteous as well as those who are vile and abusive. I never met a greedy person who was righteous. Most Mormons I have met are decent people. As far as polygamy goes... they were bullied into giving that up a long time ago by judgmental, hypocrites. You know the type? People who would say homosexuality is righteous but polygamy isn't are just that type. People who condemn homosexuality but accept divorce are just that type. People who condemn lust for the flesh but glorify the love of money are exactly that type. Think I'm a bigot if it makes you comfortable but I apply the exact same standards to everyone.
we have no souls, that is a myth your cult invented to indoctrinate you...
Level 8

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#346 Mar 3, 2014
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>clearly i do not want a socialist country as i am a conservative, as all my posts clearly show. your sarcasm was poor, that is why i misunderstood.
my point is clear and valid. the" free market" is a myth well not really, that is exactly what the failed state of Russia has now a thugocracy. no rules but what those with the money and control say are the rules...
and not all socialism blends fail. yes, you point to the ones that were obviously misrun. the ones that weren't are doing great.
reality....it is fun!
For you to understand my sarcasm, you would have had to readily understand that there are not only two options and that suggesting that there is, as the original poster did, is laughable. It is not my fault you did not understand my sarcasm because you did not readily understand what should be self-evident and needed me to point this out to you.

You also aren’t educating anyone or demonstrating what reality is to anyone. You are slaying a “straw man” that no one except yourself and the original poster I responded to has created and on top of that you are then patting yourself on the back as if you are enlightening folks by doing so and slaying the straw man that you, yourself, created. In particular, no one on here has argued for a pure “free market” principals to govern, with no government, at all, or a return to the “wild west.”

“ I DO WHAT I LIKE............ .”

Since: Mar 14

AND I LIKE WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!

#347 Mar 3, 2014
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think anyone loves the government, but it still works oddly well. There aren't starving masses dying in the streets, most people can find some sort of work - at least enough to survive. There are still amazing opportunities for people to excel. Our standard of living is good - we consider a person with one older car and a "dumb phone" to be poor.
It would be nice if less government and taxes were the key to an even better life, but it just doesn't work that way, not with the ever expanding population, and the complexity of issues we face, from innovation, to education, the environment, and our competitiveness in the world.
Sadly, far fewer rules would mean chaos at this point, and there are far to many of us to go back to the wild west. We can't go back to a farming/hunting economy. And, history has proven that we cannot trust big business to make all it's own rules. There needs to be some sort of central playing field - and that's the government.
I want to stay alive, thank you, and have some hope that my kids will live in a world that is not too poisoned for survival, and where literal survival of the fittest is the norm. If someone comes up with a better plan, I'm open to hear it.
That's just it. I want my children and my self to have a free and prosperous future and the big government reliance system and sprawling urbanization doesn't give them that. Government has effectively destroyed the fair and level playing field in the past 80 years. I think what you want is a life without any worry for real problems. You want everyone to be a guaranteed winner. Can't happen any way shape or form. When you ask the government to make equal winners of everybody, you only make equal losers out of all. The big government model creates a citizenry of weak and dependent nothings who have nothing.
Independent

United States

#348 Mar 3, 2014
woodtick57 wrote:
we have no souls, that is a myth your cult invented to indoctrinate you...
Speak for yourself, mine weighs 21 grams.



And it has been documented on film as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

:^`D

“ I DO WHAT I LIKE............ .”

Since: Mar 14

AND I LIKE WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!

#349 Mar 3, 2014
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
He is neither. He is simply one man, who worked hard and became President. He is no Messiah, and has never claimed to be.
I hear the same hatred toward him that I heard from Democrats for Bush. It's the same stuff.
And they BOTH have feet of clay because they are simply human, and not always right. But I think we have been fairly lucky with our Presidents, because it seems that most of them have been reasonably good men, who sincerely try to do what they believe is right for the country.
Even when they fail.
Can you imagine having a Stalin? Or even a Putin? So far, our system has avoided that.
Be grateful.
I agree that Obama is no worse than Bush. No better either. They are both cut from the same cloth and are of the same cause.. He never claimed to be anything but his supporters make him out to be, that is why he leads the fools. The flute has been passed down every 4 to 8 years. I have yet in my lifetime seen any president who is trust worthy in any way.

“ I DO WHAT I LIKE............ .”

Since: Mar 14

AND I LIKE WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!

#350 Mar 3, 2014
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>since we have shown that the wild west doesn't work, there really is no option, is there...
there is no reason to take things as far as your hyperbole. one can look around the globe and see nations balancing a vast spectrum of freedoms and socialistic policies. in fact some far more socialistic countries are doing far better than the US, better educated citizens, heatlhier citizens. less national debt, better economy...
when one looks at the real choices and not ridiculous rhetoric, the world looks much rosier than your fantasy scenario...
Move to one of these so-called Utopias then and let people who believe in freedom and small government have one little corner left in the world. Oh, yeah those Utopias are imaginary as the EU nations have proven time and time again.

“ I DO WHAT I LIKE............ .”

Since: Mar 14

AND I LIKE WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!

#351 Mar 3, 2014
concerned poster wrote:
<quoted text>How do these people continue to call themselves "fiscal conservatives" when they STILL think spending millions to save save ten's of thousands on drug testing poor people? That idiocy has already been shown to lose money in several states. And it's nowhere near "small government" like they claim they want. Some of these people envision a Sparta America where it's sink or swim. They assume that since America is "the greatest country ever" we can only get better by punishing as many people as possible, encouraging others not to fail- or else... Meanwhile, other countries encourage their citizens to succeed while people here preach to secede.
Government social programs doesn't encourage success. It only makes it harder to achieve for the masses. Government programs are slavery.
teachable moment

Bartlett, IL

#352 Mar 3, 2014
FTW Forever wrote:
<quoted text>That's just it. I want my children and my self to have a free and prosperous future and the big government reliance system and sprawling urbanization doesn't give them that. Government has effectively destroyed the fair and level playing field in the past 80 years. I think what you want is a life without any worry for real problems. You want everyone to be a guaranteed winner. Can't happen any way shape or form. When you ask the government to make equal winners of everybody, you only make equal losers out of all. The big government model creates a citizenry of weak and dependent nothings who have nothing.
Soooooo, you are saying that the government is holding YOU back.

The government didn't stop the Koch brothers, Bill Gates- any of the 1 or 2 percent from succeeding. Why do you feel YOU were singled out?

Why do YOU blame the government for your own failures? Others have succeeded on the same playing field.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#353 Mar 3, 2014
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
For you to understand my sarcasm, you would have had to readily understand that there are not only two options and that suggesting that there is, as the original poster did, is laughable. It is not my fault you did not understand my sarcasm because you did not readily understand what should be self-evident and needed me to point this out to you.
You also aren’t educating anyone or demonstrating what reality is to anyone. You are slaying a “straw man” that no one except yourself and the original poster I responded to has created and on top of that you are then patting yourself on the back as if you are enlightening folks by doing so and slaying the straw man that you, yourself, created. In particular, no one on here has argued for a pure “free market” principals to govern, with no government, at all, or a return to the “wild west.”
clearly i understand that as i stated that exactly. i didn't read the post you responded to.'

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#354 Mar 3, 2014
FTW Forever wrote:
<quoted text> Move to one of these so-called Utopias then and let people who believe in freedom and small government have one little corner left in the world. Oh, yeah those Utopias are imaginary as the EU nations have proven time and time again.
no one stated they were utopias. i am just pointing out they are dong better than the
US in most metrics one would use to determine a nations success or failure...

you don't even understand the concepts you are parroting...
concerned poster

Bartlett, IL

#356 Mar 3, 2014
FTW Forever wrote:
<quoted text>Government social programs doesn't encourage success. It only makes it harder to achieve for the masses. Government programs are slavery.
No, slavery is slavery. Government programs are for the benefit of society. Come on now- "slavery"?!

“ I DO WHAT I LIKE............ .”

Since: Mar 14

AND I LIKE WHAT I DO!!!!!!!!!!

#357 Mar 3, 2014
teachable moment wrote:
<quoted text>Soooooo, you are saying that the government is holding YOU back.
The government didn't stop the Koch brothers, Bill Gates- any of the 1 or 2 percent from succeeding. Why do you feel YOU were singled out?
Why do YOU blame the government for your own failures? Others have succeeded on the same playing field.
I have succeeded. Fact is the government is on the fast track to destroying all we used to hold dear..... I'm not held back as of yet but my lifestyle and ways of support are being attacked daily... I could even qualify for some government programs, I refuse to take them because I believe in independence and don't think anyone has the right to it. Maybe I should, as to get some of that SS money back that I will likely be dead before I can collect.

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