clark county nevada rancher facing ty...

Level 9

Since: Jul 11

.

#90 Apr 15, 2014
Deer Whisperer wrote:
<quoted text>
Simply, thank you for the previous post -- therein which you simply could have asked me rather that deflecting to simply FTW, the poster to which I refuted his simply hilarious assertion of my narrow view point.
I'll answer your question, simply. Eat more fish -- with a focus on red herring.
"Simply yours". DW
I agree DW except I'm rather partial to Lake Perch.

“United for Hillsborough!”

Since: Jun 06

Liverpool, UK

#92 Apr 15, 2014
Deer Whisperer wrote:
The Federal Government does own the land and has continuously since it paid Mexico for it in 1848. The law is equitable. The government cannot seize your property without due process and neither can you usurp public property. He was stealing from you, the rightful owners of the land by using it without renumeration.
Never mind the feds rent land to them for 5 cents on the dollar compared to what they'd pay to graze private land. Why pay when you can steal?
Ranchers who don't have access to federal lands pay quite a bit more for feed than a $1.30 a month. This creates an unfair playing field when his cattle come to market. Continue to ignore the cost of managing the land with fences and fire suppression, and the fact that the law passed by congress requires fair market compensation. I doubt that Bundy could rent property that cheap to feed his cattle.
In addition to grazing land, should our national parks also be wide open for everyone to use however they wished? No.
Maybe he's on 'hot-line' to the Koch brothers -- if they had their way, Yellowstone National Park would be a private, personal retreat for them, their cronies, and they could host an 'appreciation bash' for their "minutemen" stooges.
This puts everything into perspective, not my country granted, but due to mention of the
situation posted on the Kitchen thread, attempted to learn more about this 'victimised'
family.
It would appear to me that Cliven Bundy has placed his own family at risk with his attempts
to dodge the required fees.
Thankyou DW for your most comprehensive information.

“"*" Always Thinking "*"”

Level 8

Since: Nov 12

Hoosierville

#93 Apr 15, 2014
What was that again Chilli?
That doesn't/shouldn't matter whether your President, Senator and/or Congressman is CON or DEM.*grin* yew, & 'i' know what kind of *grin* it is
Level 2

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#94 Apr 15, 2014
Deer Whisperer wrote:
<quoted text>
Simply, thank you for the previous post -- therein which you simply could have asked me rather that deflecting to simply FTW, the poster to which I refuted his simply hilarious assertion of my narrow view point.
I'll answer your question, simply. Eat more fish -- with a focus on red herring.
"Simply yours". DW
Of course. Would you join me?
The following is a late 18th Century English recipe for herring pie, perhaps similar to the one required of the city of Yarmouth in its city charter. The author of this taxon account adds this recipe ONLY as proof that herring have been used in a variety of different foodstuffs for some time throughout history, and NOT as a suggestion for any future meal.

"A HERRING PYE: Scale, gut, and wash them very clean, cut off the heads, fins, and tails; make a good crust, cover your dish, then season your herrings with beaten mace, pepper and salt; put a little butter in the bottom of your dish, then a row of herrings; pare some apples, and cut them in thin slices all over, then peel some onions, and cut them in slices all over thick, lay a little butter on the top, put in a little water, lay on the lid, and bake it well." (Gellory, 1762)(Gelleroy, 1762)
;)

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#95 Apr 15, 2014
SLY WEST wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree DW except I'm rather partial to Lake Perch.
mmmm... perch! walleye! trout! salmon!

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#96 Apr 15, 2014
eleanorigby wrote:
<quoted text>
This puts everything into perspective, not my country granted, but due to mention of the
situation posted on the Kitchen thread, attempted to learn more about this 'victimised'
family.
It would appear to me that Cliven Bundy has placed his own family at risk with his attempts
to dodge the required fees.
Thankyou DW for your most comprehensive information.
Y/W Cuz El -- forgive me if I have the wrong term in mind, but your country has the National Trust (?), a similar concept; property owned and managed for the 'common good' instead of for the benefit of one or few.

Be it by county(shire), state, or national management, most, if not all, of these lands and property are managed for multiple-use; that is to say, as much as possible.

It's on me to read up on your country's approach; but I'd rely on you or your fellow citizens to school me on details of reality for practical matters of that approach.
Independent

United States

#97 Apr 15, 2014
Think.....5 billion dollar (Chinese) solar power facility.

Follow the money.
Level 2

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#98 Apr 15, 2014
Independent wrote:
Think.....5 billion dollar (Chinese) solar power facility.
Follow the money.
Yummy! Vitamin D. How many years will it take for the consumers of that power to pay off the construction costs and see savings on utility bills?

Level 9

Since: Jul 11

.

#99 Apr 15, 2014
Deer Whisperer wrote:
<quoted text>
mmmm... perch! walleye! trout! salmon!
Hmm, I detect a hint of bias towards the Smelt dippers.
Independent

United States

#103 Apr 15, 2014
Chilli J wrote:
The weirdest of the allegations involve a proposal that's been dead for some months in a spot almost 200 miles away from Bundy's ranch, a project ReWire last covered in a story from almost a year ago. The fact that the project's in the wrong place and time hasn't kept the rumor-mongers from spinning tall tales about it, so it's time to put on our debunking hat.
Debunking the 1 year old, 200 mile away claims.
This covers what is planned in Clark County.
http://solareis.anl.gov/sez/drylake/index.cfm

One month ago, not one year ago.
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/newsroom/201...

Another recent activity, one month ago.
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo... (March%202014).pdf

Please note, all links are to government websites.
This project is not 200 miles from the Bundy ranch.
You are quoting an old story claiming it to be the same as what is happening today.

You are taking information from one man's OPINION and presenting it as the gospel truth.

If you do a little research of your own you might be surprised at what you find. There are reams of information available from the government websites alone.

:^`}

“So it's not you, It's them?”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#104 Apr 15, 2014
Independent wrote:
<quoted text>
Debunking the 1 year old, 200 mile away claims.
This covers what is planned in Clark County.
http://solareis.anl.gov/sez/drylake/index.cfm
One month ago, not one year ago.
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/newsroom/201...
Another recent activity, one month ago.
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo... (March%202014).pdf
Please note, all links are to government websites.
This project is not 200 miles from the Bundy ranch.
You are quoting an old story claiming it to be the same as what is happening today.
You are taking information from one man's OPINION and presenting it as the gospel truth.
If you do a little research of your own you might be surprised at what you find. There are reams of information available from the government websites alone.
:^`}
The article I copied and pasted was not "old." It was dated 04/14/14 and I copied and pasted that date at the top of at least one of my prior posts. That naturally causes me some concern regarding your powers of observation. So I'll take the rest of your assertions above with a grain of salt. I understand that some folks here take that "hammer approach" to conspiracies, imagined and real, seeing everything as a nail. We'll see if you're one of them.

I'll review the attached and decide what they do and don't say. That said, if you attribute none of the blame for the current situation there to Bundy, who, for whatever reason, has clearly decided grazing fees are for others, not him, and who seems to have tried to take the law into to his own hands, you have my sympathy. I couldn't help but notice that you seem to have "forgotten" to reply to any of my questions in my prior Post #87 above.

Reply to them or don't. If you choose to not reply to them, that will speak volumes, won't it?*smile* You have a good one.
Independent

United States

#105 Apr 15, 2014
Chilli J wrote:
1) who holds title to the land on which Bundy has grazed his cattle, for free, for years?
The Federal Government.
That is still in dispute.
Chilli J wrote:
2) if Bundy's family, as they now claim, "owned" the land, years before the Federal Government received title to it, why did he EVER pay for grazing rights there?
I understand that Bundy has never been able to explain that to any authority's (State's, Court's, Fed's) satisfaction.
I wasn't aware they were claiming ownership.
Chilli J wrote:
3) what event can Bundy point to, that supposedly caused the title to the land to be transferred to him?
Bundy cited contracts/treaties signed by the government allowing his usage of the land.
He claims the gov is not holding their end of the contract.
Chilli J wrote:
4) if, as Bundy claims, some event supposedly caused the title to the land to be transferred to his family, many years ago, why isn't he now asking the Federal Government to refund all of the grazing fees that he reportedly paid, in error, in the past?
Right is right. So if, as Bundy claims, some event caused his family to somehow "own" the land since the 1870s, shouldn't he now be asking the Federal Government to pay him back the prior grazing fees that he paid, that he now claims that he doesn't owe?
You'll have to ask Bundy those questions, I do not know his mind.
Chilli J wrote:
5) why should Bundy, who by his own admission, owns $1 Million+ worth of cattle, be allowed to stiff the Federal Government (you, me, even the TP folks), paying no grazing fees, after losing in every Court that rejected his claims that he somehow "owned" the land? He shouldn't. To support Bundy here, you'd have to believe that every single Court or Government decision that went against Bundy was in error.
It is my understanding he won cases in the beginning of all this. The BLM wouldn't rest until they found a sympathetic judge. So perhaps those decisions against him are "in error." In today's political climate it is highly possible.
Chilli J wrote:
6) if you or I brought multiple suits to Courts and lost every one of those suits, would any of the TP folks rush to where you or I was mooching off of the Federal Government, all armed and clueless?
Probably not, but again, Bundy didn't lose EVERY case.
Chilli J wrote:
7) if Bundy's seeming land grab is allowed, where does it end and why would any other guy who's grazing cattle on other land owned by the Federal Government pay another cent of grazing fees?
Doesn't "seem" like a "land grab" to me.
The "other guy" doesn't have the balls to fight the government?

Hope that might take away from the volumes spoken about me.*smile*

BTW, I was not saying your cited article was old, only the content within the story.

Enjoy your day as well.

:^`}

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#107 Apr 15, 2014
Chilli J wrote:
<quoted text>
The article I copied and pasted was not "old." It was dated 04/14/14 and I copied and pasted that date at the top of at least one of my prior posts. That naturally causes me some concern regarding your powers of observation. So I'll take the rest of your assertions above with a grain of salt. I understand that some folks here take that "hammer approach" to conspiracies, imagined and real, seeing everything as a nail. We'll see if you're one of them.
I'll review the attached and decide what they do and don't say. That said, if you attribute none of the blame for the current situation there to Bundy, who, for whatever reason, has clearly decided grazing fees are for others, not him, and who seems to have tried to take the law into to his own hands, you have my sympathy. I couldn't help but notice that you seem to have "forgotten" to reply to any of my questions in my prior Post #87 above.
Reply to them or don't. If you choose to not reply to them, that will speak volumes, won't it?*smile* You have a good one.
Prop redux on the Chris Clarke KCET piece.

I used 'red herring' in a previous post purposely.'Red meat' generators like FOX, Drudge, etc. get sucked up and embellished and hyped in the miltia/tea party/libertarian/"patrio t"/"real American" sites like infowars (which do a bang-up job of creating propaganda in its own right) and more false-flag whackjob sites.

Makes for an abundant supply of these in search results when wanting to read up on what this matter is all about. This is clever.

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#108 Apr 15, 2014
see: BLM's News Release dated 3/14/14

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/newsroom/201...

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nev...

Reid has been one of the project's most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada. His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission.

However, the theory that Reid's putative involvement in the Bundy dispute was motivated by a desire to somehow profit from the building of a solar plant falls flat in the face of two basic facts: The site that ENN Mojave Energy was planning to buy in order to build a solar plant is nowhere near the public land Bundy has been disputing with the government, and ENN gave up the solar project and terminated its agreement to buy land to house it as far back as June 2013:
A Chinese-backed company is pulling the plug on a multibillion-dollar solar project near Laughlin after it was unable to find customers for the power that would have been generated there, a Clark County spokesman said.

In a letter, an executive from ENN Mojave Energy LLC informed the county that the company was terminating its agreement to purchase 9,000 acres near Laughlin, stating that the "market will not support a project of this scale and nature at this time."

The company, a subsidiary of ENN Group, described as the largest energy company in China, said it was unable to sign the necessary power purchase agreements to sell the energy generated from the solar plant to utilities in Nevada or neighboring states.

The project was broken down into phases, but if fully completed, it was expected to generate enough energy to power 200,000 homes with a price tag of $1 billion to $6 billion.

The move was hailed as a much-needed boost for economic development in the southern part of the state and was projected to create up to 2,200 permanent jobs.

Commissioners agreed to sell the land at $4.5 million — about a sixth of its appraised value — in December 2011 to jump-start the development, but they put in place an aggressive timeline that required ENN to secure the complicated power purchase agreements.

With the solar project now just a mirage, commissioners will discuss what to do with the 9,000 acres of county-owned land at their July 2 meeting.

Even the conservative Breitbart site debunked this conspiracy claim, noting:

Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation — the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada.

~~~ continued ~~~

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#109 Apr 15, 2014
~~~ continuation of ~~~

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nev...

Some versions of this conspiracy theory mistake the proposed ENN Mojave Energy site with that of the Moapa Southern Paiute Solar project, but the latter's 250MW solar power plant is already under construction (so there is no need to grab land for it), and, as noted in Wildlife News, the Moapa plant is being built near the Moapa Indian Reservation and not on public land disputed by Cliven Bundy:
A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada's senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy's land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son.

Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy's actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas.
Likewise, another area currently being studied by BLM for the possible development of solar plants, commonly known as the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone, is sometimes mistakenly thrown into the conspiracy theory mix by persons who point to a BLM report listing "Cattle Trespass Impacts" and claim that it documents the BLM's intent to use the disputed land for solar development:

Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.

But as explained at the Wildlife News, that isn't what the quoted blurb means:
There is some feeble effort to try to mitigate the damage to wildlife [caused by solar development]. Some of it is near the sites of these solar mirrors. This is called "primary mitigation." Some is in a place distant to the solar power site. This is called "secondary mitigation." Wildlife mitigation is things like planting grass wildlife need or like, development of new water sources for wildlife to drink, and restoration of rangeland overgrazed by cattle.

All this bureaucratic language means is that private groups like the Western Watersheds Project, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest don't think the damage from solar power plants located elsewhere can be mitigated at Gold Butte because the cattle will tromp all over it.

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#110 Apr 15, 2014
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/13/rig...

*** The Wildlife News has been critical of many solar farms in the desert because of the massive destruction of wildlife habitat, but this farm under construction is not one of the dangerous mirror farms like Ivanpah near Primm, Nevada/California. It is a photovoltaic farm and it is being built to allow decommissioning of the Reid Gardner coal generation station nearby. Reid Gardner is one of the dirtiest coal plants in the nation. In addition, the new solar plant will also help the tribe which has been badly abused in the past, being left with only a 1000 acre reservation. No, the plant is not on the reservation. See the local newspaper: Reid Helps Moapa Band Break Ground On Solar Project. Moapa Valley Progress. March 26, 2014.

It is amazing that conspiracy theorist Alex Jones would actually publish a map showing the location of the project. Anyone with the least geographic information can see it is not on the land where Bundy has been stealing the public’s grass for a generation.

There is also a solar farm proposal near Laughlin, Nevada, at the very southern tip of the state. Some of the right wing news outlets also confuses this with the trespass land near Mesquite. Here is an earlier story about the Laughlin project. The Chinese Try to Harness the Nevada Sun. Regarding this plant, back on April 5, Bloomberg Businessweek tried to work a negative Chinese angle. Now it too has been morphed onto the public land where Bundy has no right to graze and where he has threatened violence if not allowed to continue his illegal activity.

The only thing that has been proposed for the public land where Bundy’s cows continue to trespass is some kind of protective classification like a scenic area, recreation area, national monument.***

******** The right wing media is using the unfortunate public ignorance of Nevada geography to make the attack by the armed mob on the BLM into a political point against Senator Reid. Though it is doubtful Bundy knew what would happen, his cause has already been picked up by the Koch Brothers and others who really do want our public land — all of it. They want to transfer it to private ownership directly or through the states. Their Americans for Prosperity front group is trumpeting Bundy’s cause. The animosity between Senator Reid and the Koch brothers is well known. The Kochs have already spent perhaps 50-million dollars in attack ads this year trying to win a Republican senate majority this fall. Some Republicans worry these energy and chemical barons are trying to build a parallel political party.

Together the two Kochs have 80-100-billion dollars to play with, probably the 5th and 6th richest men on the planet. They can now spend as much as they want on American elections, courtesy of the Supreme Court. They can, and probably will spend more in 2014 than was spent in the entire 2012 campaign. They could fund it many times over. Of course, so will other billionaires, but they will spend less. However, it is the Kochs and Harry Reid that have the argument. It would be nice to talk about Bundy instead.*********

“Truth + context + perspective”

Since: Nov 09

informs against BS

#111 Apr 15, 2014
Media Matters also notes the Breitbart bit regarding Alex Jones et al.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/14/spuri...

"Whether it's true or not, we have to wait to see."

**** That's the caveat Fox News legal correspondent Bob Massi provided to viewers after reporting a baseless conspiracy theory about the government's motivation for enforcing the law against a Nevada cattle rancher who has been defying court orders for decades.

The claims about Harry Reid's involvement appears to have originated with conspiracy-monger Alex Jones, whose website Infowars.com alleged that BLM wants to remove Bundy's cattle "in order to make way for solar power stations."

As the theory goes, BLM has studied the possible impact of solar power plants in certain portions of the Nevada desert. BLM has a new director, Neil Kornze, who is a former Reid adviser. Reid's son is an attorney at a law firm that represents a large Chinese energy firm who wanted to build a solar power plant in Nevada, and Reid has himself expressed support for the project. Ergo, Kornze is Reid's puppet at the BLM, who is strictly enforcing the law against Bundy in order to place a solar power plant on land where Bundy's cattle have been trespassing for more than 15 years.

Unfortunately, a quick glance at a map illustrates that the Alex Jones dots don't connect. Bundy's ranch and the allotment in question are located north and west of Lake Mead, near Bunkerville, NV. Per Reuters, the proposed site for the Chinese power plant was "90 miles south of Las Vegas" near Laughlin, NV. And the land currently being studied by BLM for possible solar development (dubbed the "Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone") is north east of Lake Mead and well south west of the Bunkerville allotment.****

******** Conservative website Breitbart.com reported that the theories of a Reid land grab "just do not pan out" (emphasis added):

Mythbusting

Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation--the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada. Contrasting maps offered by InfoWars and those entered into federal court record prove such a theory to be a stretch.********

*** Nevertheless, Fox and other right-wing media outlets have not shied away from distorting the facts in order to fan the flames of anti-government dissent in Nevada. Fox appears to be following the lead of The Drudge Report, who breathlessly hyped the desert confrontation and pushed Jones' conspiracies.(In fact, the Infowars story about Reid includes an update which noted, "The Drudge Report, the #1 news aggregate site in the world, has now picked up this story.") Jones would later credit Drudge with helping the story go viral and, in Jones' belief, resulted in the abatement of BLM enforcement measures.

Fox, Drudge, and others continue to peddle Infowars reports despite Alex Jones' history of extreme rhetoric and bizarre, unhinged anti-government conspiracies.***

“No time like the present”

Since: Jul 08

to make it happen!

#112 Apr 15, 2014
A nonstory. It came and went like a liberal job applicant. No one was reporting this "story" today - in fact they were all refuting it.

Nice try though.

Media Matters - guffaw!
LOST IN MISSISSIPPI

Paw Paw, MI

#113 Apr 15, 2014
did anybody hear somethin bout a missing plane?

“....VETS”

Level 9

Since: Jan 08

WELCOME HOME

#114 Apr 15, 2014
simply indeed Federal land , means I also have rights to it

now get your stock off my land or pay

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